US asks China to explain why it wants carrier

reply to post by OtherSideOfTheCoin


Huh.. because your post strikes me as another Hate America thread.. as you rant on and on about the same moot points.

Originally posted by ollncasino
Three things

(1) Most people who have lived in China have the impression that the Chinese feel war is inevitable to allow China to wrestle global dominance from America.

Chinese people feel they should be the dominant global power and deeply resent the USA for being in that position.

(2) Chinese have no aptitude for engineering. Quite the opposite in fact.

Even if China had 11 carriers, their quality would still be much lower than the US carrier quality.

(3) The Chinese are essentially working from the script of the "Art of War" by SUN TZU

no offence, but obviously you don't have a very good understanding of the Chinese society (not saying I do either cause I have only been here for about a year).

1.) China's resentment of america has nothing to do with America being a dominant position in the world. Not many feel that a war with America is inevitable. Unlike most people on the board, a majority of Chinese understand that war between two powers of the world would just mean both f**king up and allowing someone else to become number 1. Chinese media's/society's resentment to America has more to do with two things: 1. the way america have treated china throughout history (don't really want to go into that) and 2. the way how the american media (well most western media) portrays china.

2.) In terms of quality, hey I have to agree with you, chinese made sh*t are pretty bad, right down there with the cambodian/thai made stuff. but one thing in the Chinese society that can guarantee quality is military equipment. I recently got to befriend a military commander here in Qingdao China cause he is a relative of my coworker, I actually asked him the same question, what about chinese made military equipment quality standards. Basically from information given by him, there are strict checking procedures and very severe consequences.

in terms of chinese engineering? well most of the world's most significant engineering breakthroughs are from or based on chinese engineering. Quality has nothing to do with aptitude of engineering. It has to do with money!. Understand that China has only just recently left poverty (not American poverty standards, but at least most people not starving), how can you ask a POOR country (mainly due to foreign invasions in the recent 150 years) to ensure quality? all they worry about is money for food.

3.) 'art of war' is studied not just by China, in fact by the whole world, taught in most military academies around the world. If you think that china is 'essentially working from the script', you are too naive. China has come a long way since the 90's (first time when I came to China) and so has the military.

not to say that you are wrong, just I think you are a bit backward on your vision of China. strongly suggest you to travel to china some time in the future, you will be shocked...

reply to post by sw847


Obviously an armed conflict with China is not as simple as one side wins one side loses. I would not underestimate my knowledge of modern warfare and current global military force projections. My only statement was that IF an armed conflict were to arise, the United States of America possesses the military backbone to force all Chinese military units back within the confines of their homeland. Our first-strike capabilities would give most men and women the willies.

Do not confuse this with the full cultural, economic and social consequences of a war with China.

If you had read my previous posts in this thread you would realize that not only do I think an armed conflict with China is unlikely, but it is actually in the best interest of both nations to solve all conflicts diplomatically, which they will likely continue to do. I've got no beef with China, you are correct in pointing out the fact that they are misrepresented and demonized in the Western media. Now as to whether or not I would like to live there, no thanks. I'll take any part of North, Central or South America first. Those are my stomping grounds.

a lot of chinese stuff is great... like their textiles... and a lot other stuff. Why is it always called crappy?

I'm actually shocked that there are not many more air craft carriers all around the world... but you, terrorism.

Originally posted by J.Son79
reply to post by Jay-morris

 

I have no evidence. But it's common sense that's what the carrier's are for. Throw everything away they've worked for? There's a reason they are so rapidly modernizing their military. The Chinese have felt like Taiwan was wrongfully taken from them years ago. They have publicly stated numerous times they are going to economicly and militarily challenge the United States, especially in the Pacific. What do you think this war in Libya is all about right now? It was to block Russia's naval base to challenge their military dominance in the region and stop Russia's and Chinese oil developing in the region. That's what the Libya war is all about. That's why China sent a destroyer in the Black Sea region when we first started bombing Libya. That was China sending a warning to the U.S. So yes, they are ready to play ball, they just don't want to look like the aggressors but pretty soon their not going to care anymore.

They have told Obama and other officials that Taiwan is rightfully theirs and they want to reclaim it. Why would Taiwan anti-aircraft missiles their top military priority right now if the U.S. is the only one that threatens the world with aircraft carriers? And Taiwan knows the U.S. is not going to start bombing them. And why is Taiwan trying to do this so quickly? Probably because China now has an operating carrier with more on the way? Pretty soon your going to see headlines about how they successfully landed J20's on them.

The U.S. and China almost came to blows in the late 90's over Taiwan. This was the largest display of U.S. military power in Asia since Vietnam. Now that China is bigger and more advanced, what's going to stop them now? I'll tell you this, it's going to take more than a two aircraft carriers this time.

en.wikipedia.org...

Here's an article that came out today about China and Taiwan:
www.asianews.it...

Here's an article that came out today about Taiwan's Aircraft Killers:
www.aviationweek.com.../awx/2011/08/11/awx_08_11_2011_p0-357893.xml&headline=Taiwan%20Points% 20to%20Own%20Carrier-Killer%20Missile

You don't always have to have evidence to see what's brewing in the pot, sometimes you easily smell out the ingredients and know whats for dinner.

Its not common sense, as it would be suicide, and will cause ww3. Which country is more desperate for a war, China or the USA? well, its not China!

All i see here is more Fear mongering coming from desperate people who know their country is pretty much finished. Every thread about china that comes on these boards turn into Fear mongering from certain people.

China has proved time and time again that they don't need to go to war to be successful. They only have to look at the USA to know that going down that road, will only lead to a dead end!

reply to post by LittleBirdSaid

China concerns me. Another save face culture. Those that think we are evil, will be in for quite a shock if they pray too hard for our demise. I am hopeful that there is truth that China's economy is not so strong as they display - and in their need to keep the peace with us for economic reasons. Unfortunately we will not hear about starving Chinese - but certainly we all hear about "struggling Americans" who's poverty level is truely not one of abject suffering. I hate to get all hippy - but really, I am tired and truely wish we could all just live in peace. Take care of each other and behave as good stewards to our Planet. Perhaps because I am older, a mom now, and a Veteran of War myself - I am truely weary of all this fight in our World.

China concerns you because you can't handle the fact that they will be the next superpower, its as simple as that. China economy is still strong, and a damn site stronger than the usa. China plans decades ahead, and not a couple of years.

Starving Chinese? Have you been to China? or do you get all your news from Fear mongering websites and news media. While there is poverty in China, its not as bad as some people make out, as usual

I agree with you that we all need to learn to live with eachother in peace. But this is never going to happen as long as we have patrioism for your country. Patrioism for your planet, now, that sounds alot better.

reply to post by DickGozinya

When has China not been interested in war would be a better question. The US has already fought in proxy wars against China. One of the larger conflicts was the Korean war, in which the UK was also heavily involved. What type of delusional happy-happy land do you live in to think China would use any of its power for good or the benefit of anyone?

Lol, you are joking right? The war you refer to is the korean war. China simply help out their allies. Tell me when China has invaded other countries by force in the last 30 years? They have no interest in war. They have got to where they are without going to war, so why would they need to go to war unless provoked into war. And lets face it, if a country is going to provoke them, its going to be America

Originally posted by Jay-morris
reply to post by LittleBirdSaid

 

China concerns me. Another save face culture. Those that think we are evil, will be in for quite a shock if they pray too hard for our demise. I am hopeful that there is truth that China's economy is not so strong as they display - and in their need to keep the peace with us for economic reasons. Unfortunately we will not hear about starving Chinese - but certainly we all hear about "struggling Americans" who's poverty level is truely not one of abject suffering. I hate to get all hippy - but really, I am tired and truely wish we could all just live in peace. Take care of each other and behave as good stewards to our Planet. Perhaps because I am older, a mom now, and a Veteran of War myself - I am truely weary of all this fight in our World.

China concerns you because you can't handle the fact that they will be the next superpower, its as simple as that. China economy is still strong, and a damn site stronger than the usa. China plans decades ahead, and not a couple of years.

Starving Chinese? Have you been to China? or do you get all your news from Fear mongering websites and news media. While there is poverty in China, its not as bad as some people make out, as usual

I agree with you that we all need to learn to live with eachother in peace. But this is never going to happen as long as we have patrioism for your country. Patrioism for your planet, now, that sounds alot better.

I've been reading that China is having serious clean water issues, food issues, and they are building 10 new cities a year that nobody is moving into. Um im pretty sure poverty in china is pretty bad.

This has been discussed recently here...

The Coming War With China: Evidence!

His main evidence was this statement by the Head of the Chinese military in an address to the communist party in china.

General Chi Haotion: Would the United States allow us to go out to gain new living space? First, if the United States is firm in blocking us, it is hard for us to do anything significant to Taiwan and some other countries! Second, even if we could snatch some land from Taiwan, Vietnam, India, or even Japan, how much more living space can we get? Very trivial! Only countries like the United States, Canada and Australia have the vast land to serve our need for mass colonization.

That and the Marxist credo for global communism in order for communism to work at all suggests that there may be some truth to the argument. Money and government can never 'fall away' as Marx (and Peter Joseph) put it, until all nations are communist and all people serve the state (rather than the state serving all people).

I was amazed after years of denial about this carrier that this was announced in such a 'no big deal' kind of manner.

If any of you guys think that US/Allied troops are rough in the middle east, id ask you to have a look at what happened in Tibet a few years ago.

As much as people here seem to want to suggest US soldiers are like Nazi's, nobody could seriously suggest them lining up obvious non-combatant such as monks and nuns and executing or beating them to death in the street. This is the sort of things the Nazi's have done, and its also what China has done.

I guess this is all about political posturing which influences morale and the way people think about eachother, or at least some people who are easily influenced. The US should really change their stance or their spindoctoring policies might backfire on them. I mean, it's such a dumb question to ask, "Hee we see you have acquired a carrier! That's great, congratulations! Now what are you going to do with it?". Not that China has been completely upfront about it, when they bought it from Russia they said they would make it a casino. Later they downplayed the carrier saying it was for training and research purposes.

Anyway something else tells me the US just wants a statement so that if China would use their carrier for anything else the US would have a 'valid' reason to take action. Let's say China would respond by saying it would only want to patrol certain seas. Then one day years in the future they patrol a nonspecified area and the US policymakers would say this wasn't what they originally said they would do, so they can't be trusted, they are evil and we should go to war about this.

In all seriousness, I don't think it's very bright of the US administration to be asking such questions, they've been putting other countries down for decades now. It makes them look dumb and somewhat arrogant. China should just reply with questioning the US's army, at least this would make the situation appear more equal.

Originally posted by sw847
no offence, but obviously you don't have a very good understanding of the Chinese society (not saying I do either cause I have only been here for about a year).

No offence, and I really do mean that, but your take on China is quite typical of people who have lived there for a relatively short period of time.

Behind the smiles and kind words, Chinese people are extremely nationalistic and deeply resent the US for the primary reason that they are top dog in the world.

Most long term ex-pats who have lived in China feel that most Chinese people see war with the USA as inevitable. It doesn't mean they want it. But they see it as inevitable and they are most certainly getting ready for it.

By the way, the logic in the book 'The Art of War' explains much of Chinese behavour in business and the international arena. Not all of it, but much of it.

The Art of War

Originally posted by ollncasino

Originally posted by sw847
no offence, but obviously you don't have a very good understanding of the Chinese society (not saying I do either cause I have only been here for about a year).

No offence, and I really do mean that, but your take on China is quite typical of people who have lived there for a relatively short period of time.

Behind the smiles and kind words, Chinese people are extremely nationalistic and deeply resent the US for the primary reason that they are top dog in the world.

Most long term ex-pats who have lived in China feel that most Chinese people see war with the USA as inevitable. It doesn't mean they want it. But they see it as inevitable and they are most certainly getting ready for it.

By the way, the logic in the book 'The Art of War' explains much of Chinese behavour in business and the international arena. Not all of it, but much of it.

The Art of War

You are so wrong. The Chinese love america. They love there culture,movies, clothes etc. I know this because i live in China for two years, and my wife is Chinese. What you wrote is a load of rubbish.

reply to post by OtherSideOfTheCoin


Why else do you need carriers...duh to take troops, tanks, apcs, and jets across the ocean to invade another country

reply to post by Jrocbaby

I've been reading that China is having serious clean water issues, food issues, and they are building 10 new cities a year that nobody is moving into. Um im pretty sure poverty in china is pretty bad.

While China does have problems, like every other country, the poverty in China is not as bad as people make out. Some people on this board have said BS like 80% of their people are starving. Its complete rubbish. My wife, who came from a poor family always had shelter, water, and food, and when i travelled China, while i did see poor people, i did not see straving people.

Yes, there is a huge gap between the rich and the poor, but its like that everywhere, and its getting worse.

reply to post by AlreadyGone


I really don't see how Taiwan has a big bullseye on its back. Anyone who has been following trends in Chinese diplomacy will realise that China has been opening itself up to Taiwan both economically and politically. It has opened itselfs up for a wave of capital and financial investment from Taiwan and has even been ever increasingly normalizing relations between the straits. Of course China see's itself as one country including Taiwan, yet with a combination of the need for foreign investment from developed economies (economies with the cash to spend) and Sino-US diplomacy, China has only been opening the straits up not closing them and acting hostile.

There is no doubt room for instability both within China and around its unatural and dynamic border. There is also know doubt that it wants to be the primary player in South East Asia and increase its power projection capability in the Pacific. We have seen this with China's increase in aid to pacific states. However, does this suggest a military clash between China and the US? No, China knows the facts, which is that America is still the only world superpower. As an American policy maker, would I be concerned with the aricraft carriers and would I monitor it closely? Yes. Does this suggest somthing sinister of China's actions? No, not at all.

I think it is absurd to act as if an armed conflict between China and America is inevitable. Sino-US relations are not only stable but they- since the begining of the Cold War (more so well after the Korean war) have been gradually improving. China and America mean business and they are not going to jepordize their trade partnership because China is strengthening its hard power in the Far East. What we are witnessing is the inevitable though and that is a gradual shift of power from the Atlantic to the Far East. Prior to the Industrial revolution Asia was the world powerhouse. It had the most people therefore the largest productive capacity. With the industrial revolution American and European inginuity took over and established the Atlantic as the pwoer house. China has only just caught up and thanks to its huge population and openess to foreign capital and financial investment its economy is growing which is necassary to become a military powerhouse. As long as China can effectively transfer this economic power and mobilize it for military ussage it will eventually return to its position (note that I say return) of power. This may take many many years and it could be reversed with Atlantic inginuity. When I say many I expect at least 20-30 years.

The Empire in Starwars have Stars Destroyer
The US Empire have Carriers

Won't be long and they'll be shooting our kids and eating our dogs.

Originally posted by wantsome
Won't be long and they'll be shooting our kids and eating our dogs.

Oh come on! The western world has messed things up big time. Its time for a change, hopefully a change for the better. Empires come and go, and your time is up im afraid, and now its time for another country to get us out of this mess.

Originally posted by ollncasino


in terms of chinese engineering? well most of the world's most significant engineering breakthroughs are from or based on chinese engineering.

Like what? Fireworks? the crossbow? How can one make such a total disaster of a statement? From everything Ive ever read and seen (just double-checked) they base almost all of their westernized components of their society completely on proven American design. (you know like the rest of the non-westen world thats transitioning) From their dams and interstate system to their clothes. In fact their military, in terms of current size and future spending, is dwarfed by America's. As well as their economy. Yes folks the US is worth around 6 times more than china. Technically, you could say they are catching up. But were already so far above them its not even close. Do your own research gents before you post. I know Im not falling in line with the rest of the china lovers sooooo...

Haters, do your thing. I would love to keep reading a bunch of opinions all day.

We asked them why theyve acquired their "new" carrier because we want to know.




What am I still doing on this site.