2/3rds of the Angels Stood by us, do you appreciate that?

Originally posted by AQuestion
reply to post by trollz

 

Dear trollz,

Why do you think they all take an interest in us? Maybe only a tiny percentage do. From what I gather, God had created us to be kindof like a "pet project". Beings without free will, and "dumb" so to say. Dumb as in we did not know what good or evil was, we didn't understand higher things. We were animals, essentially. As by the story, Satan is the one who led us to wisdom and understanding. Sure, maybe demons under Satan DO take an interest in us. But why? How do we know they aren't trying to liberate us from what 1/3rds of them rebelled against? And remember, unless I'm wrong, demons "used to be" angels too.

Let us consider what it says, it says that Satan accuses us day and night before the Lord, that is from Job. Doesn't sound like a pet project. It also says that we do have free will, I do, don't you? I mean you do choose what you do, we may justify things by saying we didn't have a choice; but, it is a lie and we know it. People only say they didn't have a choice after they get caught. As for being born not knowing good and evil, is that dumb or just nature?

As for Satan leading us to knowledge, he didn't. God had said that if man ate from the tree of knowledge that he would die and Satan may have believed that. No reason to believe that he didn't. Eating from the tree ended innocence; but, it did not create guilt, that requires action on our part. As for demons, I cannot find one instance where they have helped anyone. Why assume they are our friends when the only thing we know about them is that they cause people harm?

I meant that God created us as some kind of "pet project". We were basically animals without free will until Satan led Adam and Eve to eat from the tree of knowledge. And no, Adam and Eve did not have free will until they ate from the tree, because God told them if they did they would die. Angels under God do not have free will, because they must abide by the will of God always. Angels cannot act in their own interests. They do however have the choice of leaving God's will and acting according to their own will, as Satan did, thereby giving themselves free will.
I think that not knowing good and evil IS in a way "dumb". Even animals understand these to an extent. For example, a cat may save his owner's life by running into the house while it is on fire to wake him up, against the basic survival instinct to avoid running into a burning building. On the other side of this, animals have been observed killing maliciously with no reason for doing so other than personal pleasure. Chimpanzees have been known to hunt other chimpanzees and then torture/kill them for sport, and I watched a documentary about a grizzly bear that was killing other bears and actually mutilating their bodies and purposefully spreading the bones around. Due to Satan tempting Adam and Eve to eat from the tree, they instantly became "human", understanding higher things, and that is when God sent them out of the garden... Not because they had eaten from the tree of knowledge, but so that they wouldn't eat from the tree of life and become immortal. Now why did God put those trees there if there was to be no eating from them, and why was God so intent on not letting Adam and Eve live longer than a short human life?
As for demons causing us harm, how do you know they do? God is always the one instilling punishment on us. Look at all of the atrocities that have been committed because of God, even ORDERED by God. God is far more violent and malicious than Satan, in my opinion.
He created the temptation in the garden of Eden and punishes us to this day for the actions of his original creations. God seems rather immature at times. Human beings are not perfect and sinless and we will never be. Any wise God would understand that, and if he cared about us he wouldn't destroy us for his own mistake.

reply to post by AQuestion

Dear MollyStewart, I am sorry you thought I was being rude. Not the intent. I understood you to say that the angels stayed because God told them to. He may have told them to; but, we have no indication that he did. If we believe the angels have free will then it certainly means that they made a decision based on more than just a command, they had to agree on some level. Be well. By the way, here is the quote from your response that implied duress and lack of free will The Angels know God exists so they had little choice in the matter. For them, it was "obey or not" and face the consequences.

I can see where you got that implication however, having little choice does not mean having no choice. If 1/3 of the Angels disagreed you can hardly come to that conclusion. I would consider little choice in any particular matter, one with only 2 or at least limited options. I would weigh up each possible outcome carefully based on what I knew and then make my decision. I can only assume that 2/3rd of the Angels agreed with God because they weighed the outcome of the argument based on what they knew. This assumption is based on a rather limited view that they would even remotely think like we do. In the end all we have is hearsay, assumption and conjecture because we don't really know; we weren't there.

reply to post by MollyStewart


Dear MollyStewart,

I agree we do not have complete information; therefore, we are free to speculate and that is what I was attempting to do. I start with an assumption that like us, angels are sentient, self aware beings.

This assumption is based on a rather limited view that they would even remotely think like we do. In the end all we have is hearsay, assumption and conjecture because we don't really know; we weren't there.

I believe that we can at least assume that they think similar to us, the process; but, have direct knowledge that we do not have. I ask why they rebelled and why some stayed. Many assume that Satan wanted to take over, be above God. Those people would therefore assume that the others followed Satan because they preferred his rules over Gods. I suggest there may have been another reason. I suggest that Satan and his followers did not want to report to humans which the bible says they will do one day. Obviously there could be many reasons that we could not even imagine because we have limited knowledge.

This thread was really just intended to kick around some ideas and possibilities. I am not convinced that Satan wanted God to be under him, I assume that Satan knows that he is limited in knowledge and he certainly cannot create anything and knows that God can. I would argue that if God kicked Satan out of heaven then Satan knows that he cannot best God. I would also argue that if Satan accuses us day and night before God that we are the issue and I believe the issue has to do with our right to have dominion over the angels.

reply to post by trollz


Dear trollz,

We were basically animals without free will until Satan led Adam and Eve to eat from the tree of knowledge. And no, Adam and Eve did not have free will until they ate from the tree, because God told them if they did they would die. Angels under God do not have free will, because they must abide by the will of God always. Angels cannot act in their own interests. They do however have the choice of leaving God's will and acting according to their own will, as Satan did, thereby giving themselves free will.

I think we differ on this point. Free will is simply being able to choose, it does not require an understanding of good and evil. Eve did choose as did Adam and as did the angels.

Not because they had eaten from the tree of knowledge, but so that they wouldn't eat from the tree of life and become immortal. Now why did God put those trees there if there was to be no eating from them, and why was God so intent on not letting Adam and Eve live longer than a short human life?

I will tell you my answer to your question and perhaps you can tell me yours. He put the tree there knowing that they would eat of the tree of knowledge. Why did Satan direct them to that tree rather than the tree of life? Maybe he didn't want us around for long. You ask why God didn't want Adam and Eve to live longer; but, they do, just not on this earth. Would you really want eternity to be spent on this earth, where we go is much better.

He created the temptation in the garden of Eden and punishes us to this day for the actions of his original creations. God seems rather immature at times. Human beings are not perfect and sinless and we will never be. Any wise God would understand that, and if he cared about us he wouldn't destroy us for his own mistake.

God does not "punish" us, this world challenges us to be what we choose to be and that can only be proven when the challenges have consequences. You imply that God does not understand that we are sinful; but, the bible says we are and that we will never be "good" in that we will never be perfect, we are limited in nature. Of course he cares about us or he would just wipe us out, that doesn't appear to be the plan as we are still here.

Originally posted by AQuestion
reply to post by trollz

 

I will tell you my answer to your question and perhaps you can tell me yours. He put the tree there knowing that they would eat of the tree of knowledge. Why did Satan direct them to that tree rather than the tree of life? Maybe he didn't want us around for long. You ask why God didn't want Adam and Eve to live longer; but, they do, just not on this earth. Would you really want eternity to be spent on this earth, where we go is much better.

You're saying that God put the tree of knowledge there, knowing Adam and Eve would eat from it? So why command them not to and punish them for doing so? And if God wants us to die on Earth so that we can live in Heaven, why put the tree of life there? Those trees were obviously not for us, so why were they there? God even sent an angel to guard the trees so that nobody would be able to come back and eat from them. So were the trees supposed to be a temptation, were they for other higher beings, or were they simply for decoration? I would legitimately like to know this, if there is any historical/biblical knowledge regarding this.

God does not "punish" us, this world challenges us to be what we choose to be and that can only be proven when the challenges have consequences. You imply that God does not understand that we are sinful; but, the bible says we are and that we will never be "good" in that we will never be perfect, we are limited in nature. Of course he cares about us or he would just wipe us out, that doesn't appear to be the plan as we are still here.

Yes, god certainly DOES punish us. All throughout the bible, countless stories of God DIRECTLY punishing people. Plagues, wars, disease... We are punished for exercising free will, which we have due to the actions of people who had nothing to do with us. And there is always the ultimate punishment of Hell for not following God, whatever it may be... A lake of fire, a void of nothingness, etc etc...
Also, God DID wipe out the world, according to the bible. And supposedly he's going to do it again.

reply to post by trollz


Dear trollz,

I will do my best to explain what would make sense to me.

You're saying that God put the tree of knowledge there, knowing Adam and Eve would eat from it? So why command them not to and punish them for doing so? And if God wants us to die on Earth so that we can live in Heaven, why put the tree of life there? Those trees were obviously not for us, so why were they there? God even sent an angel to guard the trees so that nobody would be able to come back and eat from them. So were the trees supposed to be a temptation, were they for other higher beings, or were they simply for decoration? I would legitimately like to know this, if there is any historical/biblical knowledge regarding this.

There was no need to put the tree on earth in the first place and he put them where the people were so yes he knew they would eat of it and the consequences. They were not really punished, they just had to leave the garden, face the challenges of the world and define themselves by their choices. Think of all of this as growing pains. In the same way that God knew that we would eat of the tree of knowledge, he also knew that we would not eat of the tree of life first. Babies are innocent because they don't understand when they do wrong. As we grow we know we are doing wrong; but, do it anyways until we learn to get over that too. As for the tree of life, that is a promise to be fulfilled in the future and it was in Jesus.

We are punished for exercising free will, which we have due to the actions of people who had nothing to do with us. And there is always the ultimate punishment of Hell for not following God, whatever it may be... A lake of fire, a void of nothingness, etc etc... Also, God DID wipe out the world, according to the bible. And supposedly he's going to do it again.

We are not punished for exercising free will; but, when we make bad decisions it has consequences and not just for us, we are all in this together and effect each other. There is no proof that any human has or will go to hell. I know what it says; but, we are also told the story of a young rich man who asks Jesus what he needs to do to be saved and Jesus tells him to give up everything he has and follow him (today's preacher wouldn't ask you to give up all you have, they would ask you to give it to them). The man cannot and leaves. Jesus says that it is harder for a rich man to go to heaven than for a camel to go through the eye of a needle. His apostles ask him that if this is so how can any be saved and Jesus says that through God all things are possible. It certainly sounds as if this man could still be saved even though he did not do what he was asked.

God did kill just about everything on earth in the flood; but, not the whole world, Noah and his animals did continue and thrive. You mention that yo believe God is going to wipe out the world again, not my reading. Armageddon is a battle that is stopped not the end of the world. In fact it says that Jesus will reign on earth for 1,000 years, that means that there is a lot yet to be written or lived.

Originally posted by yourmaker

Originally posted by Watts

Originally posted by yourmaker
how can we live day to day and still believe in things like angels?

sorry. i have to say it. like it would be if i were eating a cheeseburger with rotten cheese and windshield washer as sauce, you'd be like, dude stop eating that it's not right.

Its amazing how no matter how clearly its stated in the very first post that a thread is geared specifically toward one group of people, someone who supposedly has NO interest in the subject will ALWAYS take the time to click to come in, read, click to reply and troll.

Go away trolly.

how can you say that? obviously I have interest in the topic or I wouldn't even bother.
I am curious in how people in this day and age can still believe in things that aren't here or sound so ficticious.
I used logic to put forth my point. now who is the troll?

Because you expressed a disbelief and shock that people could believe in angels in a thread ABOUT angels. If you don't believe in angels that's fine, but why come into a thread and disrupt a conversation about a subject you don't believe in and apparently find ridiculous? That's the mindset of a troll.

reply to post by AQuestion

I believe that we can at least assume that they think similar to us, the process; but, have direct knowledge that we do not have. I ask why they rebelled and why some stayed. Many assume that Satan wanted to take over, be above God. Those people would therefore assume that the others followed Satan because they preferred his rules over Gods. I suggest there may have been another reason. I suggest that Satan and his followers did not want to report to humans which the bible says they will do one day. Obviously there could be many reasons that we could not even imagine because we have limited knowledge.

I have often wondered that as God put a fail safe in place with his grace and the Saviour for us, being omniscient, omnipotent and omnipresent would he have put a plan in place to save that 1/3 of his heavenly host? Perhaps the very act of the rebellion caused a pathway event that will not only help them and us to understand something that might otherwise have been unknowable which is why it was allowed in the first place? I know it's probably a little off tangent but I like to think that God's love would be so vast that his forgiveness for all his creations would be beyond our ability to understand. Time will tell.

reply to post by AQuestion


You wrote:

["We are not punished for exercising free will; but, when we make bad decisions it has consequences and not just for us, we are all in this together and effect each other."]


Unless existence eventually turns out to be the ultimate solipsism of observer-created 'reality' in a dualistic context, there will ofcourse be a necessity of balancing freedom with responsibility, i.e. responsibility being obligations to a greater whole. Most people apart from extremist hard-core anarchists and sociopaths can see the sense in that.

There is freedom, and the are collective rules, ...... in a balance.

The moot point is precisely that: The balance. And what are the MOTIVES for the rules, and to what extent do they go, as compared to the freedom-part in this balance.

To take the last first...."Anything which is not compulsary is forbidden" being the situation, where the manifestation of the freedom-option in human nature practically is zero. We have the 'talent' for choosing, but we have it coming, if we do choose contrary to rules. Nazi-germany, Stalin-sovjet and Mao-china are recent examples of that kind of freedom/obligations-balance systems.

And then to the motives (for the rules). As it turned out, the more or less rational/irrational 'doctrines' used as justifications for these totalitarian systems resulted in elitist societies with top-dogs and zombified slaves. Authoritarian types will ALWAYS move in and take over when the structure of an ideological system gives them half a chance.

Centralised authority was more than half this chance in the above examples. What we saw as the outcome were elitist class-societies where the top had the benefits of power and priviliges. In common-usage of the word, this is fascism.

And the system you represent is such a fascist ideology. The topdog makes the compulsary rules and the freedom-part is only cosmetic.

As in the case of Hitler, Stalin and Mao the 'explaining' doctrines are ofcourse sugarcoated and said to be of some kind of general benefit. And here we come to the really, really weak point in the major christian elitist argumentation (I'm disregarding calvinism here)...this christian existential 'benefit' is SECRET. Mankind has to give up a great deal of freedom, because some authoritarian entity is 'ineffable'. We just have to take it on the words of a mythological manual and its human interpretators.

Standing against the wall, elitist-christian missionaries routinely fall back on standard circle-argumentation: " 'God' is 'good, because he's 'god', so he must be 'good' ", which from a non-christian perspective is plain non-sense.

Basically the elitist christian 'pushing' is a promotion of AUTHORITY, authority as a principle and as a practically applied manifestation. Which really isn't very convincing for humans, who believe we can handle greater amounts of personal freedom, and obviously wasn't/will be for Lucifer, who ALSO believes in less authority.....

....which is according to the mythological manual. How 'real' all this is, is another question, as is the the character and psychology of the demon Jahveh.

Power corrupts...or maybe....corruption IS power.

LOL, you've got it all wrong. y'see, they loved you so much that god banish them out of heaven to be with you, here, on earth. ohhhh the sacrifices they have made for you. in my opinion, foolish really.

reply to post by AQuestion


good post! I have the path spoken in the sermon on the mount, It is an internal (psychic, if you will) connection to God. I did it thru a simple form of meditation, clear all waking thoughts, I repeated over and over "peace and Love", went into an out of body exp. where i ended up in the tunnel so often described in the near death exp.. after that the visions started, messages from Mary and from God Himself. I am able to see spirits that are around me. I know that we are each watched over. once you take to step into the real spiritual world you begin to understand your true self and God. there are many who accept the responsibility to help those of us in this physical world. put your self in the other shoe, wouldn't help another person regardless of who it may be, if you were in God's house? this is what I'm doing right now.

Originally posted by skydog801
reply to post by AQuestion

 

good post! I have the path spoken in the sermon on the mount, It is an internal (psychic, if you will) connection to God. I did it thru a simple form of meditation, clear all waking thoughts, I repeated over and over "peace and Love", went into an out of body exp. where i ended up in the tunnel so often described in the near death exp.. after that the visions started, messages from Mary and from God Himself. I am able to see spirits that are around me. I know that we are each watched over. once you take to step into the real spiritual world you begin to understand your true self and God. there are many who accept the responsibility to help those of us in this physical world. put your self in the other shoe, wouldn't help another person regardless of who it may be, if you were in God's house? this is what I'm doing right now.

While 'the tunnel' (or similar) per se is regularly described, what's at the end of is very varying and can't be taken as anything but a subjective experience, usually followed by subjective interpretations.

Basically it's the experiental version of a circle-argument. You see, what your expectation-options make possible.

reply to post by MollyStewart


Dear MollyStewart,

It does say that through God all things are possible.

reply to post by bogomil


Dear bogomil,

Please show me where I supported rules or authoritarian anything. I do not believe in such things.

reply to post by trollz


We have "limited free will". Sure we can do whatever we want, and there are always consequesnces for doing whatever we want.

God says "don't have sex outside of wedlock", some aroused male decides he wants to get him some and finds a willing woman. This man doesnt wear protection so he gets HIV (or something else awful) or the woman ends up pregnant.

God says "spare the rod and spoil the child". Parents drop their kid in front of the daily babysitter (a.k.a. Mr Xbox or Mr. PC) kid become rebellious and parents ignore them. Sometime later, kid goes out, gets a gun and robs a gas station and maybe kills a person or gets killed.

Consequences for breaking God's law. This is where the limited free will kicks in. You can do whatever you want, as long as its within God's law. This infuriates rebels and self styled "free thinkers". However, you cannot deny the evidence. When man ignores God's law and no longer fears the wrath of God, things start go amok and chaos sets in.

When it gets to the point where man's law no longer is working (look at the US justice system, serial killers and murders, rapists and child molesters being kept alive instead of being executed), You must defer to God's law or there will be no justice, only chaos and anarchy and entire nations WILL break down under their own weight.

Originally posted by AQuestion
reply to post by bogomil

 

Dear bogomil,

Please show me where I supported rules or authoritarian anything. I do not believe in such things.

I would have believed, that my long and detailed post addressed to you should be enough explanation. Sorry, but if you don't understand or don't agree, let's leave it there.

reply to post by lonewolf19792000


You wrote:

["We have "limited free will". Sure we can do whatever we want, and there are always consequesnces for doing whatever we want."]

For once we agree, at least on general terms.

Quote: [" God says "don't have sex outside of wedlock", some aroused male decides he wants to get him some and finds a willing woman. This man doesnt wear protection so he gets HIV (or something else awful) or the woman ends up pregnant."]

Geeeez, the level of this propaganda sounds like something from the thirties Germany or the cold war. Is this the best, which can be cooked up as an anti-liberal argument?

And while you didn't say it, but just to forestall, critics of invasive theism DO NOT eat christian babies.

Quote: ["God says "spare the rod and spoil the child". Parents drop their kid in front of the daily babysitter (a.k.a. Mr Xbox or Mr. PC) kid become rebellious and parents ignore them. Sometime later, kid goes out, gets a gun and robs a gas station and maybe kills a person or gets killed."]

OR: If he's a fanatic christian, he buys a gun and becomes a 'god's soldier'.

Quote: ["Consequences for breaking God's law. This is where the limited free will kicks in. You can do whatever you want, as long as its within God's law. This infuriates rebels and self styled "free thinkers"."]

Mankind increasingly doesn't want to buy self-proclaimed authority any more. Get used to it.

Quote: [" However, you cannot deny the evidence. When man ignores God's law and no longer fears the wrath of God, things start go amok and chaos sets in."]

Have you missed or do you consciously ignore the previous deep-loding debate on this, returning to the most simplistic propaganda slogans?

Quote: ["When it gets to the point where man's law no longer is working (look at the US justice system, serial killers and murders, rapists and child molesters being kept alive instead of being executed), You must defer to God's law or there will be no justice, only chaos and anarchy and entire nations WILL break down under their own weight."]

If anything 'god's own country' rather proves the value of liberal principles. You may want to look at more secular, liberal, egalitarian, constitutional democracies as examples instead. IF your knowledge of real-politics and political philosophy is up to it.

I've been seeing many angel/demon posts lately.

I would like to say one thing that many people have not, My family (Although catholic and attends catholic mass EVERY sunday) is highly.. aware of the more kabalistic. (Google Kabbalah Judaism)
My dad spent several years in line to become a preist, and befriended a exorcist, along with many other people that most people would think only existed as weird fringe weirdos.

Well, my dad got quite an education and all throughout my childhood i was quite educated in demons and angels and Wicca and energies and things of the sort. (Note: My dad got out of preisthood Quote: "It's not my calling" He now is thinking about becoming a decon because he can remain married.)

So, what I was going to say xD

Demons and angels are very alike, You see, the devil (or whatever 21420141249860983 names you want to call him) IS an angel, or i should say WAS. He was cast down from heaven, in sense a fallen angel. HOWEVER!!!!
Angels are angels and demons are demons. They are two speices you could say *Mental note for later use: Demons and angels -> Reptilians and Greys* Just as when you die you do not become and angel, when angels go bad, they do not become demons. They become arch-angels, very few arch angels exist, and many of them are only in hell to protect, not to harm.

But what i mean when i say demons and angels are very alike is that, you can't trust or control either of them. They both have an agenda, and they both will trick, lie, and steal to complete it. So im pretty sure to say that 2/3 of angels fought for us.. is overestimating it... we dont know how many were out to follow their own agenda.

Note: I do believe that angels and demons exist in material form, and are not just an idea for good and bad.

Originally posted by lonewolf19792000
reply to post by trollz

 

We have "limited free will". Sure we can do whatever we want, and there are always consequesnces for doing whatever we want.

God says "don't have sex outside of wedlock", some aroused male decides he wants to get him some and finds a willing woman. This man doesnt wear protection so he gets HIV (or something else awful) or the woman ends up pregnant.

God says "spare the rod and spoil the child". Parents drop their kid in front of the daily babysitter (a.k.a. Mr Xbox or Mr. PC) kid become rebellious and parents ignore them. Sometime later, kid goes out, gets a gun and robs a gas station and maybe kills a person or gets killed.

Consequences for breaking God's law. This is where the limited free will kicks in. You can do whatever you want, as long as its within God's law. This infuriates rebels and self styled "free thinkers". However, you cannot deny the evidence. When man ignores God's law and no longer fears the wrath of God, things start go amok and chaos sets in.

When it gets to the point where man's law no longer is working (look at the US justice system, serial killers and murders, rapists and child molesters being kept alive instead of being executed), You must defer to God's law or there will be no justice, only chaos and anarchy and entire nations WILL break down under their own weight.

I disagree that there's always consequences. Sure, we have human-set laws and rules and whatever, but those only apply... if you get caught doing something you're not supposed to. Plenty of people commit crimes and get away with it with no consequence or punishment. All the time. I do agree though that there is all kinds of chaos going on in the world, and I don't think any human government will ever be anywhere near 100% effective at fighting crime or disobedience to rules and laws, unless a mandatory life/death sentence is imposed for every slightest infraction, but that won't happen. It's almost comical watching all of humanity's struggles to deal with their own imperfections. However, even if the world was run by God himself, there would still be crime and chaos. Look at the 1/3rds of the angels that rebelled; they probably had it great, but they chose to rebel knowing they'd be destroyed for it.

reply to post by trollz


You wrote:

["It's almost comical watching all of humanity's struggles to deal with their own imperfections."]

I can usually consider most things in life with a quite black humouristic perspective, but the direct manifestations of the results of madmen fighting for power (war, famine, lack of medicine, slavery) don't appeal to my sense of humour.

So disregarding the fabricated, self-proclaimed and unvalidated 'absolutes' from various invasive theists (such 'absolutes' being more the problem than the solution), and knowing that the question "which 'god'" makes a choice of 'absolutes' a lottery, it's better to start where we are and make the best of it.

That the presently best isn't perfect isn't a reason to stop.

So once more: Lucifer symbolising anti-authoritarian principles, symbolising where somebody take responsibility for the situation (however much equipped for the job) and their own lives is DEMONSTRABLY better in a world where mankind increasingly chooses pragmatic benefits instead of the (often) horrors of authority. Authority which mostly only has one aim....what's good for authority.

Those afraid for their 'souls' and other trans-cosmis phenomena, feel free to go your direction. But don't even think about interfering outside parliamentary rights with the world the rest of us try to build. And be prepared to be met with verbal/academic opposition, if your crusades get to noisy.

So all hail Eris, the great noodle master and Lucifer.