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The NEW case for Secession ( POLISCI 351C Thesis)

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posted on Aug, 11 2011 @ 12:28 AM
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reply to post by Aim64C
 


You: "I HATE IT HERE!"
Someone else: "So go somewhere else."
You: "I DON'T WANT TO!"

Look, if you're truly so invested that relocation is not an option, then you have to face two potential scenarios.

1) It's not anywhere near as bad as you're pretending it is. This would mean that you're basically a buffoon who's making loud, pointless noises for the sake of hearing yourself make loud, pointless noises.

Or

2) It really is as bad as you say it is, in which case you're an idiot who has invested very heavily into a terrible situation, and deserve exactly what you get for making such a plethora of really, really bad decisions.
edit on 11/8/2011 by TheWalkingFox because: (no reason given)




posted on Aug, 11 2011 @ 12:34 AM
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reply to post by TheWalkingFox
 

The Declaration of Independence clearly states

We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal; that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable rights; that among these are life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness; that, to secure these rights, governments are instituted among men, deriving their just powers from the consent of the governed; that whenever any form of government becomes destructive of these ends, it is the right of the people to alter or to abolish it, and to institute new government, laying its foundation on such principles, and organizing its powers in such form, as to them shall seem most likely to effect their safety and happiness.


If the Gove. is run amuck, which it has...we have every right to "start over"
edit on 11-8-2011 by bo12au because: (no reason given)



posted on Aug, 11 2011 @ 12:35 AM
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Originally posted by Aim64C
reply to post by Kitilani
 



Every couple of months there is someone again trying to argue that they have the right to leave.
Hey, just go.


Since you seem to be full of answers, perhaps you can tell me where it would be that I could go to. I have a home, a family, and many other things residing within my home state, as well as a family and community I belong to.

Where do I just move to?


A library where you can find a dictionary and teach yourself the meaning of the word "secession."
That would be my first suggestion. After that maybe we can have a rational chat.


This is the most ridiculous thread I have ever seen. Someone wants to secede. I suggest you not let the door hit you on the way out, just finally do it. You all freak out because I suggested you actually do what you keep saying you want to do.




posted on Aug, 11 2011 @ 12:37 AM
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Originally posted by bo12au
If the Gove. is run amuck, which it has...we have every right to "start over"


Then do it already. I do not understand why I am the one getting flack for simply suggesting you all just get on with it. Writing threads on ATS sure as hell has not made it happen so I am guessing real action has to be taken.
Cannot wait to see how I get flamed for this.



posted on Aug, 11 2011 @ 12:43 AM
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reply to post by Kitilani
 


I'm not going to flame you bro, and I didnt say I wanted to seceed from the Union. I was saying in this thread that if States wanted to, they have every legal right to do so. Peace



posted on Aug, 11 2011 @ 12:44 AM
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Originally posted by Kitilani

Originally posted by bo12au
If the Gove. is run amuck, which it has...we have every right to "start over"


Then do it already. I do not understand why I am the one getting flack for simply suggesting you all just get on with it. Writing threads on ATS sure as hell has not made it happen so I am guessing real action has to be taken.
Cannot wait to see how I get flamed for this.


Yes, let's all run out and do it... and then be promptly arrested. Fail. Why don't you offer some realistic solutions?



posted on Aug, 11 2011 @ 12:53 AM
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Originally posted by Kitilani
Then do it already.


Originally posted by ForeverDusk
Why don't you offer some realistic solutions?


...i see no positive value in the "shut up already" attitude but i suspect the reason why kit doesnt offer some realistic solutions is because there are none...



posted on Aug, 11 2011 @ 12:59 AM
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Originally posted by ForeverDusk
Yes, let's all run out and do it... and then be promptly arrested. Fail. Why don't you offer some realistic solutions?




So someone cries about how they want to secede and I suggest that instead of writing essays about it they take some action.
You do not approve.
Someone else claims that the government has run amuck and needs to be put back in its place so I suggest that instead of writing on ATS about it, they do.
You again do not approve.

I wish whatever you were trying to argue made sense.
You want to secede, secede.
You want to revolt, revolt.

Why are you asking me for solutions? I am cheerleading on the solutions being put forth. They sound great. Revolt, secede. Go for it!

It is just the constant writing about it and not actually doing anything that gets old.



posted on Aug, 11 2011 @ 12:59 AM
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This is an argument that I have had with others for more than 20 years in a scholarly setting. The states do not have the right to secede. Here is the reason why. The states entered the union and pledged to uphold the constitution. The constitution clearly upholds individual rights above either the state or federal government. All citizens of the states are citizens of the Union and are protected by the Constitution. There for no state is entitled to remove the protections provided by the Constitution.

I believe the states are clearly being abused currently and the citizens also are being trampled. However the legal solutions are either a constitution convention / amendment process or the use of the states militia to protect the states rights under the constitution. In other words there needs to be a political revolution that might get messy. Now the sad thing is I don't see enough of the public that cares to the point that they will stand up to the folks we put in power.



posted on Aug, 11 2011 @ 01:04 AM
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Originally posted by Wyn Hawks

Originally posted by Kitilani
Then do it already.


Originally posted by ForeverDusk
Why don't you offer some realistic solutions?


...i see no positive value in the "shut up already" attitude but i suspect the reason why kit doesnt offer some realistic solutions is because there are none...



No, there is no positive value in saying "shut up already." There is some value in saying, get to it already though. See, I keep seeing this argument that "we" have the right to secede but no one is actually seceding. So what is the point of making the argument?

To me, these types of threads just look like a 12 year old kid standing by the front door arguing about how they can run away. After a while I either want you to stop arguing and just run away already.

Plus, yeah there are no realistic solutions. Anyone that believes their state is going to secede needs a history class and anyone that believes their 2nd Amendment right is somehow going to allow them overpower the US military needs to just go ahead and give it a shot. These are not realistic at all and what that other poster is asking me for solutions for is far beyond me. I am not even sure what the problem is that we are looking to solve. I just know another person believes they have the right to secede and wants to say it but the point in doing so will end up in the ATS archives just like the others before it.
edit on 11-8-2011 by Kitilani because: (no reason given)



posted on Aug, 11 2011 @ 01:11 AM
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Secession is certainly a lawful option the several states are sovereign countries however the rogue corporate governments posing as the lawful government will certainly resort to force if any of the states try. Those who claim the civil war settled the matter of secession advocate might makes right. Their is nothing in the constitution prohibiting the states from seceding therefore it is left up to the states as per the 10th amendment. Lincoln's war was illegal he had no authority to attack the southern states for secession.

A better option in my opinion is if the states would elect some local leaders that would stand up to the federal government and kick their agents out of the state like the IRS, the BAT,F and the DEA etc. They have no jurisdiction in the states.The problem is they are all on the federal tit for money and sell out despite passing resolutions reaffirming the 10th amendment.



posted on Aug, 11 2011 @ 01:15 AM
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This is a BS response individual rights preclude any state from seceding. It really can't be denied legally.

The states need to fight back but they don't have the right to remove any citizens rights from them.
edit on 11-8-2011 by standrewscross because: (no reason given)



posted on Aug, 11 2011 @ 01:18 AM
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reply to post by standrewscross
 


We Americans, are endowed with a natural God-given right to a government of our own choosing, and this natural right trumped the authority and sovereignty of the British Crown and the jurisdiction of Great Britain.This natural right differs from a legal right in that it is a right so inherent to our being that it is congenital, a right we have from birth. As such, this natural right cannot be legislated away by some political body, redefined by the courts, or dismissed by a king or president.A natural right of secession is an ultimate right taking precedent over any legal right to withdraw from a government as further evidenced by the secession of nine States from our first constitution, known as the Articles of Confederation



posted on Aug, 11 2011 @ 01:19 AM
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reply to post by bo12au
 


Yup, we do indeed have that right - Declaration or no, we have that right.

The only part you're missing is the "we" part. It's not I, it's we. Note the great difference there? If we - that is, the populace as a whole, or at least a large majority - wanted to revolt and overthrow the whole thing, then it would happen. We have spoken, and our decision is that it is not time to utilize that right.

Your mistake is assuming that We agree with you. we don't. You're in our number, but your opinion is not at all representative.
edit on 11/8/2011 by TheWalkingFox because: (no reason given)



posted on Aug, 11 2011 @ 01:23 AM
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Originally posted by ForeverDusk
reply to post by Kitilani
 


How did I know you'd be here? Advocating big government and telling people who don't like it to "get out". You sure are something.



Where did she say any of that???

You are something.

IF you guys want to leave, leave. I am sick to death of the Grandstanding and pretending, just go, or wait your bleeding turn.

((((Deep down it gives me great pleasure to know that, in fact, you guys are protesting against the grand sum of your own, pro producer, pro rich, pro elite policies.))) ha ha - hahaha haaaa

You know, I don't care what you do, just grab your nuts and do it already, or close your flap. You guys ALWAYS bring the same big government, you guys are way fake and you'll go to sleep when a FOX sanctioned president
is in the drivers seat.

Enjoy

Wish you success on your succession

edit on 11-8-2011 by Janky Red because: (no reason given)

edit on 11-8-2011 by Janky Red because: (no reason given)



posted on Aug, 11 2011 @ 01:26 AM
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reply to post by Janky Red
 


Yeah, I really get a laugh at that. They crap their own pants and expect someone to clean it up for them. it's sort of like the states that suck in a net profit of tax dollars (ironically, the ones that seceded last time, plus a few) are generally the ones most-packed with people who want nothing to do with the federal government. remember that sign, "GET THE GOVERNMENT OUT OF MY MEDICARE!" - heh, good times.



posted on Aug, 11 2011 @ 01:27 AM
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reply to post by hawkiye
 


I am not sure how the secessionists are going to keep a new rogue corporate government at bay, with so
many people and politicians wielding pro corporate outlooks...

That is a pickle



posted on Aug, 11 2011 @ 01:28 AM
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I think one person might have read this thread..I am in law school this was my assignment...I am not saying 'I am seceeding." I am just stating the legality of the subject.



posted on Aug, 11 2011 @ 01:28 AM
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off-topic post removed to prevent thread-drift


 



posted on Aug, 11 2011 @ 01:30 AM
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Originally posted by TheWalkingFox
reply to post by Janky Red
 


Yeah, I really get a laugh at that. They crap their own pants and expect someone to clean it up for them. it's sort of like the states that suck in a net profit of tax dollars (ironically, the ones that seceded last time, plus a few) are generally the ones most-packed with people who want nothing to do with the federal government. remember that sign, "GET THE GOVERNMENT OUT OF MY MEDICARE!" - heh, good times.


Ya, it is ironic that these true patriots are angry at Obama for not doing enough


He is not saving them fast enough...

I want them to go, I don't care, maybe rapture will come or something, take them waaaaay down south




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