Mother bear kills cub then self at Chinese bile farm

reply to post by getreadyalready

Hey getready, I understand the point you are making, but there does seem to be a difference between livestock, even under stressful, if not downright deplorable conditions, compared to animals that are bled of their organ fluids over long periods of time, and that live longer than livestock in these cramped cages. Granted, we should consider both approaches inhumane and should not totally separate the two, but I still feel this instance is worse than traditional livestock practices. In the sense of sentience, both species have the qualities, but I would submit bears are more intelligent, thus more of a injustice may be applied here, imo. But yea, this thread has made me see the entire animal harvesting practice in a new light, and I am going vegetarian for now, because as you suggest, there is a touch of hypocrisy involved in being so upset at this incident and still supporting typical livestock processes.

Peace,
spec

reply to post by davespanners


I'm not advocating what they do to the bears. It is horrible. I also do not like the way they process cattle, chicken, and turkey here in the states. It is a terrible thing. I used to have to make a delivery stop every week at a hatchery, where all the female chicks went down one conveyor to become laying hens, while all the male chicks went up a short conveyer and into a grinder! It was a chirp....chirp....grrrrrreggggtttt. It was horrible, and I hated that stop, but I still bought and ate chickens and eggs from the store.

The post I responded to earlier, the poster emphasized that he was a 6'5" "skinhead." I take offense at anybody intentionally identifying themselves as a skinhead, and the emphasis on his size was his, not mine. I do not believe for one second that if he is indeed a skinhead, that he "cried" over this bear.

Now, as for the humanity of it all. The OP seems to be attributing some human emotions to the bear. Sadness, Empathy, and a conscious decision for murder/suicide. I do not believe the story is true as written, and I do not believe the bear acted under the same logical frame that we as humans would. So, when someone tries to attribute those emotions to the bear, I think it is important to realize the bear would still have acted just as callously and hatefully and brutally as we do.

So, if we are going to expect humans to act more civilly than the bear, then if we assign human emotions to the bear, we must also ask the bear to act more civilly than a bear. If that makes any sense, LOL!

In reality, I just think the whole original story was intended to tear out an emotional response, and I think it was in poor taste, probably falsified or exaggerated, and aimed entirely at making people feel terrible for being human beings. What is worse, it actually worked on me at first, and that is why I lashed out. I was feeling terrible for the mother bear, and I was considering changing my own lifestyle until my more reasonable side kicked in. I refuse to feel terrible for being a human being.

Please read my earlier post in the first few page of the thread, because it was much more concise.

reply to post by speculativeoptimist

Hey getready, I understand the point you are making,

To be honest, I'm playing a bit of devil's advocate here as well. I hate seeing people manipulated emotionally, and then rising to arms without taking a moment to look at all angles. It doesn't change anything I have written, I fully support everything I wrote, but my intention was just to slow down the emotional boil a little bit.

Sure, this situation with the bears is terrible. But we have people in nursing homes treated worse than those bears, and we don't allow the humane euthanization of them, so why are we up in arms about a story of a bear, that is likely not even completely true?

reply to post by getreadyalready

so why are we up in arms about a story of a bear, that is likely not even completely true?

www.abovetopsecret.com...
Again, I understand your point, and agree for the most part, but people, and their families, still have more options when compared to these animals, imo. I think both of our perspectives are necessary parts of the mix.

spec

reply to post by speculativeoptimist

Humans have choices, can defend themselves with guns, can get in a car and leave, can use rational and complex thinking, make choices, or call for help.

Have you been to a nursing home in the US?

People entirely helpless, flailing about, calling for help repeatedly, and repeatedly being ignored. Many of them have no family or friends willing or able to help, and many of them languish for 10 years or more, while the nursing home collects exorbitant medical fees. Sometimes $3000 per month or more for each resident!

I know a recent story where a resident was put into a bathtub, and the water was turned on. The nurse didn't come back for 20 minutes, and when she did return, she realized only the hot water had been turned on, and of course the man was already cooked to death by then.

I know another story where a group of 10 nursing home residents recruited the most fit of the bunch, collaborated for days, stole a key to a back door, created a diversion, and helped 1 escape. The escapee then went to authorities to beg for help, but was quickly returned back to the home!!

Sorry, but we don't treat our people any better than those bears. This is an industrialized society, where everything is done with inhumane cookie cutter efficiency. From bear bile harvest to hospice, we don't look at individuals anymore.

Here is my earlier post. I believe our industrial efficiency has outgrown our spiritual development. We are capable of much more destruction than we are compassion, and we are due for a "correction." Either we need to spiritually evolve quickly, or we will technologically devolve quickly. Mother nature always corrects dichotomies like ours. It is only a matter of time.

reply to post by predator0187


That's the saddest and most real thing I've read in my entire life,,,
and we have the audacity to say we're the only thinking animals, more like the only non-thinking animals.

reply to post by getreadyalready

No disagreement there friend, I have witnessed the neglect/abuse myself, and it too enrages me. I don't know what can be done either, because many cannot afford quality care in nursing homes. I have thought that it would be nice if there were live monitor systems in our elders room that we can view anytime from work or home. Cameras help to keep people honest in this case.

reply to post by wildtimes

DUDE! I did reply to you! I chose to do it via u2u because you are clearly wanting a poo-throwing competition.

I am not wanting a "poo throwing competition" I have no problem with people finding this distressing, i find it distressing. What i do have a problem with is people saying stuff "we should nuke them" talking like all the Chinese are bad because of this. And there has been plenty of people like that posting on this thread, but i see no one condeming them, why is that, when its clearly false.

I asked you in the u2u to enlighten us. You and other posters on here seem to get all vicious at Westerners who think Chinese are in some ways barbaric....yet you NEVER offer evidence to the contrary.

Some Chinese are barbaric, but that does not give people the right to label all Chinese as barbaric. Can't you see what i am trying to say here? its not hard!

So you're married to a Chinese lady. Like I wrote to you earlier (and YOU refused to respond), I'm sure she's a lovely person. And she had your baby. But YOU ALL LIVE IN ENGLAND.Why is that?

We live in England because of me. We were happy in China, but we moved back to the uk because of work. Not because China is horrible! I met and have many friends (westerners) who are still living in China happily.

If China is such an exemplary and fantastic place, why don't you live THERE?

Explained above. Why the hell does it matter! Its not like i moved to China because i hate England, and its not like i hate China because i moved back, i just moved!

Was your wife born and raised there? Or is she an English citizen born of Asian people who left?

My wife was born and raised in China. She came here to study media in scotland, then Luton, and thats how i met her.

Does she go to buy bear bile at all the shops in the high streets? No? Why not?

No she does not. She does not take Chinese medichine either. As she just said to me, when she was sick in China, she went to the doctor, like everyone else. She does not know anyone who takes chinese medichine. The only thing she has is green tea, thats it.

if so, WHY? Good deities above, it's utterly barbaric.

When are you going to understand that no every Chinese person is the same! Yes, you get people who do take these medicines that involve killing animals, im not saying this is true. You also get christians who are KKK, does that mean all christians are? Sigh

If the Chinese are such techno-whizzes, and can make things so cheaply, why don't they make a synthetic "bear bile" equivalent and leave these innocent creatures alone?

I don't know. Go and ask the people who do it. All i am saying is, you can't use the same brush on all Chinese. How can you possibly do this!

It's fine if you want to defend that not ALL Chinese people behave in the way that some do -- and --as I stated clearly in my u2u -- ALL societies in the "civilized" world are sick to some extent. The entire industrial/tech WORLD is sick. Including, and certainly not the least: the USA and England.

Well, thats what i am defending. People are "sick" not nations. What part of that don't you understand. Clearly, you have labelled the Chinese as barbaric, you did not say "the people who do this are barbaric" you just used the same brush, like many have on this thread.

So stop shouting at people and EDUCATE them about why Chinese/China's society are misunderstood.

Im not saying the chinese are misunderstood. If someone came on here and said the youth are thugs in the uk because of the riots, i would debate with them about the same thing as i have with this thread. People have the tendency to look at a country as a collective. Sorry, but i don't.

This forum calls for civility and decorum. Getting on here and calling people ignorant and bashing them is NOT debating.

So you think its ok for people coming on this thread completly bashing the chinese race over this. You really think that is right? I did not see you, or other condemning these people, why?

If you have valid reasons to discredit the revulsion that people feel at this story, then by all means, tell us why we should change our minds.

Have you been reading what i have been writing in this thread!!! I should not have to change your minds. Logic should tell you that you can't go baming a whole nation over something like this. It is ridiculous. I have not once tried to discredit people who are upset with the story. Some of these people have the knowledge to know that, it is certain people who do this, not a whole nation!

Now I challenge you to educate, inform, and diffuse the "ignorance" that you claim people who feel sickened by Chinese practices such as this one feel here. But don't expect ME at least, to say, "Oh, okay. It's okay to torture bears, then. Carry on. As you were."

My God! read what i have writing! I have not once said that people should not be feeling sad and angry over this. You show me the evidence where i have said this. You really need to start reading my posts and not put words in my mouth!

It is SICK. And I quote the same as the poster many pages ago:

I know its sick! Its nice to see that you have tried to make me out to be a person who does not agree with all this anger over the bears. People who have read my posts will read yours and know what you are trying to do, and its sad!

We get it. Your married to a Chinese person. You fathered a child with her. She's an animal lover. Great. That's fanfreakingtastic. Now -- what is she -- and the POPULACE of China doing to STOP THIS SICK BEHAVIOR? Anything?

Oh, so now you are going to say that becaus ethe chinese public are not doing anything, then that makes them just as bad, right? In every country people go about their day to day business, even though horrible things are happening in their country, does that make them evil, barbaric, no, it does not!

And btw, China is NOT going to be the "next superpower." ... do some research. ... and educate yourself.

Lol, you are joking right. Please tell me how chia will not be the next superpower. I can't wait to hear this! I suggest you do some research!

I fully relate to wanting to defend the decent members of ANY culture. In fact, I have worked with undocumented Spanish-speaking people living here in the US for many years. MOST of them are kind, loving, hardworking, and want only to make their children's lives better -- or to earn enough money to put the roof on their house. They are not here to steal jobs, run drugs, or practice tax evasion. So I defend them when I hear people bashing all "Mexicans". I have spent time there, as well. I have become involved with their families, their worries, their cares, their fears. They are people. Most of them are loving and simple people. SOME OF THEM are psychos.

Does that mean the Mexican society is healthy? NO IT DOES NOT.

With your post above, you have just proved my point! You feel that way because you have spent time with them, just like i have with Chinese, only that i lived there for two years. So basically, this makes you a huge Hypocrite.

Try to read what people are saying without just repeating the same refrain over and over. It's tiresome.

And you should try reading all of my posts, and stop putting words in my mouth. What names did i call people?

If people are sickened by this story, by the photos, are brought to tears, are made angry and feel the need to lash out at this brutal inhumane and superstitious barbarism, THAT IS A GOOD THING. It is NORMAL for people to feel nauseated, depressed, sickened, sad, and angry about this type of brutality

How the hell is it a good thing to label everyone the same, to use the same brush. Like i said before, and its something you don't seem to understand, there is nothing wrong with labeling these people as barbaric, because they are. That does not mean people have to label the whole nation like this because of these people!

We are repulsed by things which are WRONG. Being desensitized happens to people when they are immersed in something for so long that they become inured to its evil. It doesn't make evil any less evil.

I agree with you! It is wrong and evil. I neve said it wasn't!

Let your wife read for herself...or are you her master? Does she have to have permission to read things? Are censoring her information sources?

I tell you why i don't like her to read it. My wife is a caring loving person. How the hell do you think she feels when she reads stuff like "all chinese are barbaric" "we should nuke them" How do you think she feels? or do you think she has no feelings? She used to read some of the stuff on this site, mainly because it used to drive me made with some of the hateful BS some people post, but it just ended up upsetting her. I have showed her some of the posts on this thread, and it has upset her again. You may have no feelings, but my wife does!

If she's such an animal lover, she too will be revolted by this news. And maybe just enough that she can go and raise some hell about it in her own language in her native country.

She is an animal lover, and so am i. Why the hell does that mean she has to do something about it. Like i said earlier, many people around the world might not like stuff, but they don't do anything about it, does that make them evil?

You can't protect her and/or your daughter forever. If the shadow of SOME Chinese practices is following them

This post says it all about you. You are completly clueless, and you somehow think you know what chinese take. You are ignorant to think this, and im sure other people will read your post and think the same.

just like so many people "hate" Americans, they are going to have to learn how to combat it

That is such a primitive way of thinking. If you hate a race because of the country, then that is really said. I can never turn around and say "i hate the american" or "i hate the french" how the hell can anyone say that when they don't even know them. This is why the world is such a horrible place!

reply to post by Jay-morris


Jay, you need to calm down.

I have completely held up your argument that it is not right to judge an entire ethnic group due to the actions of a few. I have read every one of your posts, and you just keep repeating the same thing.

I am not one of the people who say that we should "nuke 'em." or snub them, or whatever. I've read those posts, too. You are obviously quite upset, and I understand that.

My husband is a person who some would call a "redneck." I have been in your shoes, explaining the bigotry and ignorance behind that label and its stereotyping. Some are going to refuse to hear it. I am not one of those.

You keep attacking me, when I'm trying to make a point! I don't hate your wife. I don't hate Mexicans, or the Brits, or the Muslims, or the Africans or African-Americans, or the Swiss, or the people of color, or any person who is a member of a "group" just because they are -- or could be considered as -- part of that "group."

Try to think past your immediate family for just one moment. I am trying to point out that there is no "healthy" society on this entire planet. When I say "sick" I should probably use the word "dysfunctional." In my opinion, there would be a more peaceful world if there were no "superpowers" at all. Just like a human alone doesn't have "superpowers", neither does a nation. I am not proud of, or in agreement with, the things America has been doing. But I am still an American. You are a Brit. Your wife is Chinese. That's bloody fine with me, and I suggest that if you and she and I and my husband sat down and had a CALM conversation about the sickening story that started this thread, we would all AGREE.

I'm not a hypocrite! Please, stop feeling so defensive...and try to hear what people are upset about: the treatment of those bears. No one said your wife did it! No one said your daughter is doing it!

Yes, I admit I said it reinforced my feeling that China is a "sick" society. So is America, so is India, so is Mexico, so is Iran, Iraq, Afghanistan, Russia. We are all part of a "sick" earth, in terms of global peace and humanity. Is that so hard for you to understand?

ETA:

Why the hell does that mean she has to do something about it. Like i said earlier, many people around the world might not like stuff, but they don't do anything about it, does that make them evil?

Yes, Jay, many people do.
So I leave you with this quote, by Dr Martin Luther King, Jr.

Our lives begin to end the day we become silent about things that matter.
Martin Luther King Jr.

That's why she should say something. That's what most of the upset people on this thread are saying. Can you not understand that?

reply to post by wildtimes

That's why she should say something. That's what most of the upset people on this thread are saying. Can you not understand that?

Of course i understand, and i ahve said that many times in this thread. My debate was never ever directed at the people upset on this thread. My debate was with the people the people posting the horrible stuff about the chinese people at a whole. And to me, that is wrong. Its not really to do with China. If someone came onto these boards saying that the uk's children are scum because of the riots, i would say the same thing, that not all children are scum, just the ones that do these things. Do you see what im getting at?

You said that you know mexicans that are friendly and loving. Now, if someone came on to these boards and said the mexican people are all murdering drug dealers, you are going to know that this is not true, and its the same with me and this debate. I have been around many chinese people through living in Beijing, its the same thing.

China is not perfect, and they should bring a law in to stop these animal killings becaus ethey are disgusting, and i hope they do.

reply to post by Jay-morris


The star is from me.
Thanks for your calm response.

Originally posted by wildtimes
reply to post by Jay-morris

 

The star is from me.
Thanks for your calm response.

If you actually knew me , you would know that all i want is peace in this world, for everyone to live together as a human race, and not islands. I know i ask for too much, but like alot of people, i am sick to death of all the hate, violence and saddness in this world. I would be lying if i said i wasn't sensitive to all this. Anyways life goes on, and you have to make the best of it, regardless of how messed up the world is.

reply to post by Jay-morris


I completely agree. Peace, brother.

reply to post by jonnywhite

It's still inexcusable. Just as we have to go to Afghanistan because terrorists will use it to their advantage, we must also condemn china for their activities. By ignoring it it will not go away.

Except it doesn't work that way does it? The US has not challenged any strong nation in a long, long time. It only takes on countries it perceives to be weak, like Iraq and Afghanistan.

The US does nothing more than a mild, polite protest to any atrocity China commits because the PTB would not permit the interruption of "business as usual".

I think you know that. Its only the profits of corporations that really matter in this land, and human rights, animal rights, whosever rights, are secondary at best; probably lower.

hope you dont get me wrong...

but the way she chose to die was epic lol

Originally posted by WiZKiD111
I guess consciousness shifts are taking place.

en.wikipedia.org...

To be compassionate about the insect is the first step to enlightenment; for humans troubles is in the division of flags, boundaries, skin colour, creed and religion. Once we unite on this then can we concentrate on what deplorable acts we do on animals.

I am sick of the whinging babies getting so upset over what is most lightly a fake 'chinese media' story.

I am sick of the amount of abuse been thrown at the Chinese people because of this article.

You see what happens to people who stand up for what is right in China?

So all you American folk who wanna boycott everything coming out of china, have a look in the mirror.

And all you whinging about how sad this story is, have a goddam taste of reality;

This is not in CHina, this was shot in the good oul USA



its one short clip.

educate yourself and watch the rest at

www.earthlings.com...

Its sad but true nobody in this world has the whole story. The cruelty that lies next door. Innocent egg soldiers being dipped in delicious yolk. Yummy! Where's my mummy when I need her?

Contains scenes you may fine disturbing.

www.huffingtonpost.com...

The truth is we don't need nations to unite. we can do something now and that is abstain from all foods that caused the suffering and death of all sentients. Perhaps when we do this then can we concentrate on the trouble we call humans.

Tossing the coin for the animals, heads you win tails I lose.

Even if you gave up meat for a day it helps. After all it maybe a drop in the ocean but the ocean cannot exist without all them droplets.

reply to post by pastaway


Your link is 100% accurate. I have been in an operation very similar to that. The male chicks are instantly ground up, and the females go down another conveyor to be used as laying hens. If one falls off the conveyor, it is just left to die, or trampled, or whatever. They are not treated as living things, they are treated as merchandise, because that is all they are.

The hatchery I went into weekly, probably processed 10,000 chicks a week. You figure that is about 5000 males ground up.

The problem isn't China, the problem is over-population, industrialization, consumption, and lack of humanity. We just consume-consume-consume, and therefore the factories just streamline and make more and more stuff, faster and faster, and the resources get used up, the landscape gets polluted, and the individuality and humanity gets destroyed.

We should all look at our daily habits for passing any blame in this. Maybe you don't consume bear bile, but I bet you get some eggs, and milk, and plastic disposable chinese silver ware, and plastic water bottles, etc., etc.

reply to post by predator0187


I just came from a thread where the OP believes humans are self aware; yes, we are aware of what we want, but are oblivious to the consequences. I just don't understand how humans can do something like harvesting bile from black bears for dumb reasons. There was a day when these same bears were treated with respect. What happened??