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why do people ignore the zionist protocols?

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posted on Aug, 11 2011 @ 02:22 AM
reply to post by twitchy

Yeah, they have been proven forgeries.

Whether they are being followed now is up for grabs, but the writings have been proven as a hoax many many times over, even here on ATS.

It was moved to the [HOAX] forum, because as the subtitle of the forum says, they are lies, scams, and fakes

edit on 8/11/2011 by Lemon.Fresh because: (no reason given)

posted on Aug, 11 2011 @ 02:23 AM
I have known about the protocols being fakes for years.It's been debunked since the 20's and most recently by artist writer Will Eisner :The Plot The fact that this book continues to be shown as proof of a "Jewish plot". To take over the world is laughable and proves the old saying : people see what they want to see and hear what they want to hear to be true.

edit on 023131p://2426 by mike dangerously because: (no reason given)

posted on Aug, 11 2011 @ 02:32 AM
reply to post by Xcathdra

you're quite welcome and civil conversation is rather enjoyable.
i don't aim to offend anyone but sometimes it's part of the process.
often, the truth hurts

who cares who willie martin is? attacking the messenger gets nowhere with me.
i notice you don't disparage the other sources which conincidentally, repeat the same info provided at the sources you object.
that's not surprising ... soooo, who's wrong, the neo-nazi or the library?

Lenin, Stalin, Hitler and their party WERE jews ... this is nothing new. Even Putin is jewish.

do you even know what 'anti-semitic' means? it has nothing to do with a people or religion or race.

Oh for the sake of sanity ... can we agree that Wiki clearly exemplifies this statement ...

The resource page also contains questionable research, which is to say they are pushing an agenda and have no problems distoring history, facts or just outright lying.

you write as though all my links are extreme, radical viewpoints with -0- merit
tis a shame you are not the only one reading this material or perhaps i would have 'customized' them just for you
... but since this isn't a singular audience, varied sources is a must.

problem for you is ... good or bad source (in your opinion) ... they all say relatively the same thing

see, you're still jabbing at a currently (front page on google) searched result (jewWatch) that had a problem 5yrs ago ... soooo, does that mean they are less legitimate with their information?

labels, labels and more labels, is that all you've got to contribute?
please tell us why you refuse to address the content?
oh that's right, isn't that one of those non-existent protocols ???

lose the minutes? nah, most have been destroyed
(and don't ask for a source, it isn't public)

soooo, did you just ignore the historical and library links?

Please, follow the history ... i just checked your wiki link and read this ...

The Protocols is a fabricated document purporting to be factual. It was originally produced in Russia between 1897 and 1903, possibly by Pyotr Ivanovich Rachkovsky, head of the Paris office of the Russian Secret Police, and unknown others

what's wrong with the above?
first, the protocols appeared in France in 1897 (but no mention of that) ... and, it declares it's a fabrication with no citations ... and, the claim is: originally produced (which means they have a record) then it was produced "sometime between" (i call BS) and by 'possibly' known author(s) ... don't you see any problems with this entry?

then they go one to say the 'source' material is also a plagiarism ... so which is it?
fabrication, forgery or plagiarized (they're all different)

posted on Aug, 11 2011 @ 02:44 AM

Originally posted by backinblack
reply to post by Xcathdra

Mate, according to some, 99% of the population is anti-semetic..

All you have to do is state a FACT to be called anti-semetic.

The phrase anti-semetic has lost all meaning..

"according to some" is what we call weasel words, it's a logical fallacy in the context you're using it and therefore renders this basically completely meaningless unless you're going to provide some sources to back up your claim that there are people who think 99% of the population is anti-semitic.

In case you're not familiar with the weasel words fallacy:

posted on Aug, 11 2011 @ 03:03 AM
I don't care what you think and MANY,even Jews, agree the phrase is overused..

Look it up, I can't be bothered..

posted on Aug, 11 2011 @ 03:05 AM
reply to post by Honor93

When I am referring to Storm front or the National movement, and anti semetic comes up, its not my opinion, but their stated facts. Im not sure how much you know about Storm Front ut they have a tendancy to continue the Nazi agenda from WWII.

The sources you gave are White Supremasist websites, which means they are pushing an agenda, which is not limited to just hating blacks, but jewish people as well. As I said it doesnt take much to see their manipulation of facts and history to support their agenda.

The example I pointed out was the website still blaming a Jewish person for torching the Reichestagge. It is a known fact that Hitler was behind it. Their own records support that, yet the website where you pulled the info from denies that.

As far as the peoples backgrounds, they are relevant because it allows us to see if the person is presenting all sides or just one side that goes with the agenda. In this case the people in the sources you used are all known Neo Nazi / White Supremasists. From my point of view it tells me their facts are going to be skewed for their agenda.

Without knowing the persons background, how do we know where a person is getting their information from? How do we gauge the validity of it? How do we know the person is not jaded?

By ignoring backgrounds and taking a person at face value would be akin to having the SS investigate Auschwitz. If we checked their backgrounds ( the SS) we would have seen their is a potential conflict of intrest that can jeopradize an independant investigation, skewing the results and leading people who read the report to the wrong conclusion in order to further an agenda.

If you think they are reliable thats cool to. I jsut find it difficult to take information from a group of people who openly advocate a supreme race doctrine as reliable and difinitive.

Willie Martin is not the messenger, but the author and advocate of Neo Nazi / White Supremasist agendas.

Can you shoot me a link where it talks about Putin and all of them being Jewish. Its an intresting statement and I am not familiar with the background on em to that extent.

As far as sources and wikileaks go, sure - Its not always 100 % accurate.

Let me ask you this -
Would you accept information that comes from an anti muslim pro jewish website that releases documents showing Israelis own all of Palestine and the Muslims, who came into the picture in 600AD are members of a lesser species and have no legitimate claims to the area?

I would wager no (correct me if im wrong) you would not trust it because its coming from a website that is pushing a pro jewish agenda / anti muslim agenda. The argument would be they are biased because they are pushing an agenda and the info they release would be dismissed because of the obious bias.

Anyways, not attacking you, just question the sources.

posted on Aug, 11 2011 @ 03:08 AM
reply to post by Xcathdra

and round and round the merry-goes round

Graves - paid damage control, not research
Goedesche/Retcliffe, Joly, Golovinski, plagiarizers (all of them)

so, in 1868 a book was plagiarized by Goedesche and later plagiarized by others

In the ? 1890s ?, Goedsche's version was in turn plagiarized by Matvei Golovinski and adapted into what came to be known as The Protocols of the Elders of Zion.
again, i call BS

Goedesche plagiarized Joly who was published in Geneva 1864, not France or Russia or Germany
Clearly, the basis for the protocols has been around much longer than either of the authors debunked.

so back to the beginning ... The First Zionist Congress ... held in Switzerland (hmmm, isn't Geneva there?)

The program, which came to be known as the Basel program, set out the goals of the Zionist movement. It was adopted on the following terms:[1]
“ Zionism aims at establishing for the Jewish people a publicly and legally assured home in Palestine. For the attainment of this purpose, the Congress considers the following means serviceable:

1. The promotion of the settlement of Jewish agriculturists, artisans, and tradesmen in Palestine.

2. The federation of all Jews into local or general groups, according to the laws of the various countries.

3. The strengthening of the Jewish feeling and consciousness.

4. Preparatory steps for the attainment of those governmental grants which are necessary to the achievement of the Zionist purpose
#4 sure is an interesting one ... looking for grants ('free money') from day one.

since correlation and coincidence don't prove anything, i surmise ... since Jolys' text was confiscated upon release in France 1864, it is rather unlikely that it was plagiarized for the protocols that were circulating France in 1897.

The book was banned by the Napoleonic regime and confiscated upon distribution into France

posted on Aug, 11 2011 @ 03:14 AM
reply to post by mike dangerously

even though debunking authors continuously have jewish connections ... the truth will eventually prevail.

Will Eisner was the son of Jewish immigrants
ya know, a non-biased evaluation sure would be nice

posted on Aug, 11 2011 @ 03:28 AM
reply to post by Honor93

You do know the the Zionist Congress and the Protocals of the Elders of Zion arent the same issue right?

The protoccals arent even mentioned and the goals of the Congress run in complete contradiction to the protocols.

So while I will say yes to the Zioinst Congress that it did inded take place in Switzerland, I still maintain the protocols are false, and have nothing to do with the Congress you mentioned.

If you have a link between the 2 point it out to me because I am not seeing one.

The part you pointed out as intresting goes with this portion that was not included (bottom of the wiki page)

The Zionist Congress met every year between 1897 and 1901, then except for war years, every second year (1903-1913, 1921-1939). In 1942, an “Extraordinary Zionist Conference” was held and announced a fundamental departure from traditional Zionist policy[9] with its demand "that Palestine be established as a Jewish Commonwealth."[10] It became the official Zionist stand on the ultimate aim of the movement.[11] Since the Second World War, meetings have been held approximately every four years and since the creation of the State of Israel, the Congress has been held in Jerusalem. In 2002, the Green Zionist Alliance became the first environmental organization to ever hold a seat at the World Zionist Congress.

edit on 11-8-2011 by Xcathdra because: (no reason given)

posted on Aug, 11 2011 @ 03:40 AM

Originally posted by Honor93
reply to post by mike dangerously

even though debunking authors continuously have jewish connections ... the truth will eventually prevail.

Will Eisner was the son of Jewish immigrants
ya know, a non-biased evaluation sure would be nice

Have you ever sat down and read the book? Its actually pretty good and well laid out.

posted on Aug, 11 2011 @ 06:29 AM
They may or may not be fake but it doesn't really matter! The fact is they are being used against the people right now. They have now become a horrendous reality!!!

posted on Aug, 11 2011 @ 08:23 AM
reply to post by Xcathdra

sorry, gotta stop here, this is getting far too redundant.

yes, a couple of sources were but so are some of the readers, your point?
it doesn't make the information provided any less valid.

now you're trying to imply that i am promoting the hatred of jews ?? are you serious?
so, if i read and post news from a muslim or lybian website, does that mean i support terrorists too?

funny thing there darling, you haven't disputed ONE fact, not one ... not even Hertzls' quote.
you're pretty good at attacking the messenger but seem to be lacking on the content.

The example I pointed out was the website still blaming a Jewish person for torching the Reichestagge. It is a known fact that Hitler was behind it. Their own records support that, yet the website where you pulled the info from denies that.
this is a pointless point because Hitler was and had many jews on his staff ... regardless if it was his guard, his secretary, his wife or himself, it was quite possibly, still a jew.

backgrounds, smackdowns ... it's all the same, but it doesn't change the context and that is the important part.
as far as i'm concerned, every religious person of any kind fits that description but it doesn't mean what they say has no value. who taught you such nonsense?

most history is written by the winners ... but it's ALL jaded.
It is up to the interpreter to discover the truth.
please don't tell me you actually believe information is only as good as its messenger ??

oh, you mean like the nazi/jew scientists who lead monsanto? or maybe the ones who head DuPont? or perhaps that Lee Iaccocoa dude from the 70s? yep, those are some real good sources there

agreed, i don't frequent jaded sites other than to curiously browse the opposition ... however, i'm frequently stunned by the coincidences and commonalities. and besides, not every source appeals to every reader ... is why i post several. (do you realize that each "source" link is a separate source of information? ... maybe i should label them differently?)

Willie authored the content (that makes him the messenger) ... the web host is entirely different and that is what you're referencing.

would i accept information? always ... does it need to be legitimate? certainly.
i've visited pro and anti everything ... i prefer both sides before i come to any conclusion of my own.
what ya got???

hope it's good cause Palestine existed long before 600AD and the arabs have been there almost forever.
i don't believe in lesser species, ask my cats

as for a legitimate claim, i'm probably not the one to offer an opinion cause an awful lot of politics over the years has certainly clouded the view. although, i'd be willing to explore the information and keep an open mind

posted on Aug, 11 2011 @ 03:07 PM
ok, it's funny how some people have come in here and hijacked my thread....i didn't ask for anyone to show me 'someone elses" opinions....I asked for someone to actually go into the protocols, pull out some paragraphs or whatever that proves to you that what they say isn't these israeli firsters have gotten my thread put in hoaxes.....that pisses me off.....and proves to me that they are thinks thou protests too much......

posted on Aug, 11 2011 @ 03:26 PM
ok, since you guys won't post what parts of it makes you think they are real....then I willl......these are just some of them....every single statement in the protocols is absolutely right on.......tell me how just these few excerpts aren't real, you're crazy if you don't think these things aren't real......

Capital, if it is to co-operate untrammelled, must be free to establish a monopoly of industry and trade: this is already being put in execution by an unseen hand in all quarters of the world. This freedom will give political force to those engaged in industry, and that will help to oppress the people. Nowadays it is more important to disarm the peoples than to lead them into war; more important to use for our advantage the passions which have burst into flames than to quench their fire; more important to catch up and interpret the ideas of others to suit ourselves than to eradicate them. The principal object of our directorate consists in this: to debilitate the public mind by criticism; to lead it away from serious reflection calculated to arouse resistance; to distract the forces of its mind towards a sham fight of empty eloquence.

The aristocrats of the goyim, being hereditarily incapable of contenting themselves with little, will rapidly burn up and fizzle out. At the same time we must intensively patronize trade and industry, but, first and foremost, speculation, the part played by which is to provide a counterpoise to industry: the absence of speculative industry will multiply capital in private hands and will serve to restore agriculture by freeing the land from indebtedness to the land banks. What we want is that industry should drain off from the land both labour and capital and by means of speculation transfer into our hands all the money of the world, and thereby throw all the goyim into the ranks of the proletariat. Then the goyim will bow down before us, if for no other reason but to get the right to exist. In order to incite seekers after power to a misuse of power we have set all forces in opposition one to another, breaking up their liberal tendencies towards independence. To this end we have stirred up every form of enterprise, we have armed all parties, we have set up authority as a target for every ambition. Of States we have made some gladiatorial arenas where a host of confused issues contend. ... A little more, and disorders and bankruptcy will be universal. ......

To complete the ruin of the industry of the goyim we shall bring to the assistance of speculation the luxury which we have developed among the goyim, that greedy demand for luxury which is swallowing up everything. We shall raise the rate of wages which, however, will not bring any advantage to the workers, for at the same time, we shall produce a rise in prices of the first necessities of life, alleging that it arises from the decline of agriculture and cattle-breeding: we shall further undermine artfully and deeply sources of production, by accustoming the workers to anarchy and to drunkenness and side by side therewith taking all measure to extirpate from the face of the earth all the educated forces of the GOYIM. In order that the true meaning of things may not strike the GOYIM before the proper time we shall mask it under an alleged ardent desire to serve the working classes and the great principles of political economy about which our economic theories are carrying on an energetic propaganda. Babblers inexhaustible have turned into oratorical contests the sittings of Parliament and Administrative Boards. Bold journalists and unscrupulous pamphleteers daily fall upon executive officials. Abuses of power will put the final touch in preparing all institutions for their overthrow and everything will fly skyward under the blows of the maddened mob. Ever since that time we have been leading the peoples from one disenchantment to another, so that in the end they should turn also from us in favour of that King-Despot of the blood of Zion, whom we are preparing for the world.

But every freedom might be harmless and have its place in the State economy without injury to the well-being of the peoples if it rested upon the foundation of faith in God, upon the brotherhood of humanity, unconnected with the conception of equality, which is negatived by the very laws of creation, for they have established subordination. With such a faith as this a people might be governed by a wardship of parishes, and would walk contentedly and humbly under the guiding hand of its spiritual pastor submitting to the dispositions of God on earth. This is the reason why it is indispensable for us to undermine all faith, to tear of minds out of the GOYIM the very principle of Godhead and the spirit, and to put in its place arithmetical calculations and material needs.

In order to put public opinion into our hands we must bring it into a state of bewilderment by giving expression from all sides to so many contradictory opinions and for such length of time as will suffice to make the GOYIM lose their heads in the labyrinth and come to see that the best thing is to have no opinion of any kind in matters political, which it is not given to the public to understand, because they are understood only by him who guides the public. This is the first secret.

The second secret requisite for the success of our government is comprised in the following: To multiply to such an extent national failings, habits, passions, conditions of civil life, that it will be impossible for anyone to know where he is in the resulting chaos, so that the people in consequence will fail to understand one another. This measure will also serve us in another way, namely, to sow discord in all parties, to dislocate all collective forces which are still unwilling to submit to us, and to discourage any kind of personal initiative which might in any degree hinder our affair. There is nothing more dangerous than personal initiative; if it has genius behind it, such initiative can do more than can be done by millions of people among whom we have sown discord. We must so direct the education of the goyim communities that whenever they come upon a matter requiring initiative they may drop their hands in despairing impotence. The strain which results from freedom of action saps the forces when it meets with the freedom of another. From this collision arise grave moral shocks, disenchantments, failures. By all these means we shall so wear down the GOYIM that they will be compelled to offer us the international power of a nature that by its position will enable us without any violence gradually to absorb all the State forces of the world and to form a Super-Government. In place of the rulers of to-day we shall set up a bogey which will be called the Super-Government Administration. Its hands will reach out in all directions like nippers and its organization will be of such colossal dimensions that it cannot fail to subdue all the nations of the world.

We shall soon begin to establish huge monopolies, reservoirs of colossal riches, upon which even very large fortunes of the goyim will depend to such an extent that they will go to the bottom together with the credit of the States on the day after the political smash. ... You gentlemen here present who are economists, just strike an estimate of the significance of this combination! In every possible way we must develop the significance of our Super-Government by representing it as the Protector and Benefactor of all those who voluntarily submit to us. The aristocracy of the goyim as a political force, is dead - we need not take it into account; but as landed proprietors they can still be harmful to us from the fact that they are self-sufficing in the resources upon which they live. It is essential therefore for us at whatever cost to deprive them of their land. This object will be best attained by increasing the burdens upon landed property - in loading lands with debt. These measures will check land-holding and keep it in a state of humble and unconditional submission.

posted on Aug, 11 2011 @ 04:50 PM
reply to post by patternfinder

Actually we did what you asked. You want specific parts, and we are telling you the entire Protocols are a fraud, not just bits and pieces of them.

They have been a fraud for some time now, and as another poster pointed out this has been a topic on many occasions on this site and in those threads they were also a fraud.

They are not real.
edit on 11-8-2011 by Xcathdra because: (no reason given)

posted on Aug, 11 2011 @ 04:51 PM
reply to post by Honor93

At no point did I ever accuse you of anything, so not sure where your getting that from.

Secondly the protocols are a fraud and have been proven as such. If you chose to believe otherwise, that is certainly your choice.

Third, The protocols are in no way shape or form linked to the Congress.
edit on 11-8-2011 by Xcathdra because: (no reason given)

posted on Aug, 11 2011 @ 08:38 PM

Originally posted by Honor93
reply to post by mike dangerously

even though debunking authors continuously have jewish connections ... the truth will eventually prevail.

Will Eisner was the son of Jewish immigrants
ya know, a non-biased evaluation sure would be nice

How about Phillip Graves - the times reporter who exposed hte Protocols in a series of articles in teh 1920's, and apparently got them from a Russian anti-semite?

Michael Raslovleff, a self-identified antisemite, who gave the information to Graves so as not to "give a weapon of any kind to the Jews, whose friend I have never been
- from Wiki

posted on Aug, 11 2011 @ 10:26 PM
did you guys even read my post up there? you didn't did you...i posted some actual stuff from them and there is no way that you can say that any of what i posted is a fraud.....

posted on Aug, 11 2011 @ 10:33 PM

Originally posted by patternfinder
did you guys even read my post up there? you didn't did you...i posted some actual stuff from them and there is no way that you can say that any of what i posted is a fraud.....

The entire protocols, and not just tid bits of it, have been proven time and again to be a fraud. Posts here have walked people from the person who wrote the book it was lifted from, to the plagerized and secondary plagerized copy, to it being passed of as real when in fact, its a confimred hoax.

At this point its going to come down to us agreeing to disagree.

You think they are real, some of us dont.

You gave info to support your side, we gave info to support ours.

Either way I learned more than I started out with so all in all a good thread - Thank you.

See you in the next debate.

posted on Aug, 17 2011 @ 04:55 PM

Originally posted by Xcathdra

Originally posted by Honor93
reply to post by mike dangerously

even though debunking authors continuously have jewish connections ... the truth will eventually prevail.

Will Eisner was the son of Jewish immigrants
ya know, a non-biased evaluation sure would be nice

Have you ever sat down and read the book? Its actually pretty good and well laid out.

have you ever sat down and read the protocols? their actually pretty good and well laid out too........but i already know you didn't because you told me before that you didn't......see the dilemma?

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