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Is Islam a facist social structure?

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posted on Aug, 18 2004 @ 02:40 AM
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I want to begin by saying that yes I am a christian and as such I am probably biased, However my belief that Islam is a facist social structure is not based on the words of christians, or christian priests, but on the words of the founder of Islam.


Many are the posts I have seen in which devout muslims have lauded Islam, and listed the benefits to America were she to become a muslim society. Many are the muslims I have met who seem to me wise, noble, and good. And yet in its founders own words, Islam comes across as a facist social system. I have posted theese questions every time I have seen a muslim post on the wonders of Islam and yet I have recieved no awnser. So I will ask again for any muslim to explain how a religon of love can reconcile the words of the prophet Muhammad with a religon of love.

Assorted teachings of Muhammad from the Sahih Al-Bukhari and from the quran


"I have been ordered to fight with the people till they say, "None has the right to be worshipped but Allah, and whoever says, " None has the right to be worshipped but Allah , his life and property will be saved by me." (otherwise it will not). Vol. 4:196



" No Muslim should be killed for killing a Kafir" (infidel). Vol. 9:50



Kill the disbelievers wherever we find them. (2:191)



Fight and slay the pagans seize them, beleaguer them, and lie in wait for them in every stratagem. (9:5)



Slay or crucify or cut the hands and feet of the unbelievers...(5:34)



"When you meet the unbelievers, strike off their heads; then when you have made wide slaughter among them, carefully tie up the remaining captives" (Surah XLVII.4).



"Believers, do not take Jews or Christians as friends. They are but one another's friends. If anyone of you takes them for his friends, then he is surely one of them. God will not guide evil doers" (Surah V.51).


So how after reading the words of your prophet can you say Islam is a religon of tolerance and love? Nowhere in the words of Jesus will you find these types of sentiments. I don't believe muslms themselves are evil at least not the majority of them, But the religon itself and its prophet, well thats another story.




posted on Aug, 18 2004 @ 03:25 AM
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hahahaha!!
This just keeps coming back over and over again. It is highly amusing. I think that Bin Laden would be pround of such brief summary of complete crap that has nothing to do with real Islam. He has the same strategy as those anti-islamic websites ironicaly. They both use the same tactics of mistranslations, incorect wordings and half-sentences out of context to justify their words and deeds.
I assume the verses you posted is a copy/paste from one of those sites.

First of all, Qur'an has 114 chapters, 1000s of verses, to understand it all you have to read it all, not just those half-arsed atempts of translation, half sentences out of context and some made up stuff from anti-islamic websites.
Number two, Hadith, the alleged words of muhammad, are words of men written after his death during the fight for leadership. When in doubt about those words consult the Qur'an, the WHOLE book translated properly.
The whole slay the unbelievers thing is bull#, and every muslim you ask around you will tell you that.
If the example of Jesus is "thy shall not kill" and "turn the other cheek" and all kinds of peaceful stuff, then why is America, a christian country, fighting a war in Iraq now and killing people? Killing civilians...oh, no wait, not civilians, they are called acceptable colateral damage.
Human beings are born with evil side and just because they affiliate themselves with some religion doesnt mean they cannot kill. Christians kill every single day despite the message of Jesus, muslims kill despite the message of Qur'an, pagans kill, jews kill. We all kill. That makes some human beings evil, not the religion itself. Millions of christians, muslims, jews, atheists would never ever kill someone and they never have, simply because they are good people.
There are many things regarding islam you obviously are not aware of, such as the deffinition of infidel in Islam, the correct translation of those verses, deffinition of evil, murder, tolerance in Qur'an, the unity of all faiths and many other things.

A quote:
"Surely, those who believe, those who are Jewish, the Christians, and the converts; anyone who believes in GOD, and believes in the Last Day, and leads a righteous life, will receive their recompense from their Lord. They have nothing to fear, nor will they grieve" Qur'an, Sura 2, Verse 62

Can you please provide a quote from the Bible that says other religions besides christianity are also the right ones and their path also leads to heaven.

For your own good, I urge you to READ the Qur'an yourself and not rely on extremist views and explanations of it.



posted on Aug, 18 2004 @ 03:56 AM
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Paperclip that is exactly why I posted this, to hear the other side of the story. However I have seen these quotes on many websites not all of which are anti-muslm or anti-american. So my queston is are these qutes accurate and if so how do you justify them. I agree that some may be taken out of context but are they all. And if these are not accurate of islam then how can one explan Sharia law? Christianity went through a similar phase of intolerance and conquest 500 years ago to 200 years ago but why is Islam still semmngly so backwards and intolerant as practised in the middle east? Why is the treatment of women in Isamic theocracies so barbaric? Is it a failing n the structure of the religon or is it simply another case of a good relgon being used to bad purpose by bad people? Understand I don't think OBL is anymore indicative of the average Muslim than a mafia don is indicative of the average Catholic but based on the limited amount of research I have done thus far it seems as if Islam was designed as a religous justification for facist rule of societies. This coup[led with the generally accepted picture of Muhammad's actions, the slaughters he caused among non-muslims, and his marrage to a 9 year old girl trouble me. If the originator was a brutal despot (I am not saying he was but it does seem that way at first glance thoughI am nowhere near enough of an expert to say that he was) Then how can a religon which sprung from him be beneficient? I am not looking to start a reigous war I truly wan't to hear from muslims about thier beliefs. I am always looking to increase my store of knowledge and this is one area where feel my knowledge is seriously deficient.



posted on Aug, 18 2004 @ 04:36 AM
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hmmm your posts raises several questions actually.
First the distinction between the religion itself and those who practice it.
I guess religion has always been a complex thing and a perfect tool to control masses.
Religion is always judged by its followers, more acuratelly by those followers who are the loudest. In the dark ages of Christianity, the first 1900 of its existence, those who officialy represented it, the church, have done unimaginable things in the name of Christ and have used the very Bible you read today to justify it. I bet that there were 1000s of good christians back then too, good people, but they are not remembered.
Islam is judged today by the actions of Bin Laden, Taliban regime, extremist groups, that are using the exact same tactics Christianity used for 2000 years.
Now, you have raised the question if the very core of Islam is indeed a facist social structure. I say no. Islam is a very tolerant and peaceful way of believing in the Creator.

The very basic of its belief differs from the way christians believe.
Bible is the book that describes the life of Jesus as an example of good life.
Qur'an does not describe Mohammad's life. According to Muslim belief, Qur'an is a book written by God and Mohammad is ONLY a messenger, a person chosen to bring the word to the people. He didn't invent a religion, he was only a messenger. He was a normal everday salesman until the age of 40 when he recieved the first words of Qur'an. Basicaly, Qur'an is a summary of all the previous religions, it includes all stories starting with creation of universe, Adam, Eve, Eden, etc,etc. It has all the stories of old testament like the stories about Noah, Abraham, Jews, Israel, then the new testament, the miracle birth of Jesus, story about his return in the last days. Jesus is considered to be the most important prophet of them all, muslims too believe he was sinless, that he ascended to heaven and that he will be back one day.
Basicaly, a unification of all previous stories.

To be a Muslim is NOT about following the path of Muhammad, it is about worshiping God, being a good person ( which is defined in quran very clearly and is the same as in all other religions, thy shall not kill and all that, basicaly the ten comandments), believing in Judgement Day and all the prophets that came to earth since day one. It is an individual religion, going to mosque is not a requirement for ones salvation. God is the final judge and all will be judged by their deeds. It is forbiden to worship a human, you won't find images or statues, icons, of mohamad anywhere in muslim world.

It is absolutely forbiden to kill, except in a course of justice and in self defence. Justice is clearly defined much like current laws in the west. Capital punishment is for murder only and you gotta have proof for that. Humans are allowed to excercise this punishment only on individuals who are directly responsible for murder. So all the crap about killing infidels because they are infidels, or killing americans because their goverment ordered killings of others is NOT allowed. No matter what kind of excuse you find for it, it is not valid, you have commited a sin and the punishment is eternal damnation.

You say you are christian, so I assume you do believe in Devil and his influence on people. ALL people are tempted by him regardless of their label, so you will find evil in every religion. But that evil doesnt come from the good side of religion, it comes from the temptation of satan. Or if you dont believe in God, from the evil side of men.

I'll get back to this topic later, there is a lot to be said on this matter, but right now I gotta go to work.



posted on Aug, 18 2004 @ 09:18 AM
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You need to do some research on history so you can compare islam and christianity.

The picture the church paints now is a lot different that their horrible beginnings. Now we dare to compare the church to the Islamic and Mohamed teachings like it can not possible be the same, well perhaps not now but oh boy it was not rival back in the times of Christianity rule.

In the year 404 AD, long after the complete triumph of Christianity, the moral of the church was a barbarous one, the historical documents talks about gluttonous, drunken, and corrupt clergy and monks, of murders and mutilations, of a densely ignorant and coarse population. And just here the reader will find a useful illustration of the two ways of writing history, the Christian and the historical.

To manipulate ancient writings, to edit history in ones own favour, did not appear criminal if the end in view were otherwise just and good.

Dr W Barry, Papal Monarchy

In the year 896 AD Stephen VI became Pope, after a bloody contest of the various factions. He ordered the body of one of his predecessors, Formosus, who had been several weeks buried, to be brought to the Papal palace. The stinking corpse was clothed in the pontifical garments and propped in the throne.

Perhaps the teachings of Jesus were of love for each other but the church leaders of the time didnt think so it was for power.

After Pope Stephen during the 904 six more Popes succeeded each other in the next eight years because they killed each other. Church of God became for thirty years a Pornocracy or government by whores.

Lets not forget the inquisition, perhaps Mohamed is not alone on his views on how to deal with the non believers and infidels, perhaps Christianity took his teachings when the institution of the inquisition in the middle ages and went after the non believers and infidels in their mass witch huntings and In its dealings with converted Moslems and Jews and also illuminists, the Spanish Inquisition with its notorious autos-da-f represents a dark chapter in the history of the Inquisition and the church.



posted on Aug, 18 2004 @ 09:28 AM
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i think that Islam and the western powers will end up at war (maybe- WW3), Islam is not tolerant of other religions and non-islamic people so you can picture extremists uniting the Middle East and cutting off the west's oil supply, then invading europe

how the hell would be fight back without fuel



posted on Aug, 18 2004 @ 09:40 AM
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Marg I agree that the catholic church has been responsible for some very heinous actions over the years, However I think that you would have to look very very hard to find justification for murder in the words of Jesus as written in the current versions of the bible. And while I can not vouch for the accuracy of the quotes I listed above, if they are in fact the words of Mohammad you dont have to look hard at all. My point is, I guess, that if you truly want to rape, murder, and torture, and are good enough at twisting logic, you can find a reason any religon says it's O.K. My question is, is Islam more easily used to justify slaughter than other religons? Or is it simply a matter of people twisting a good idea into a bad action?
For example, if religon A says thou shalt not kill, and religon B says thou shalt not kill men, then religon B can more easily be used to justify murder by simply using a very narrow definition of the word men. (I.E. men are males over a certain age or men are males who have undergone certain religous rites etc.)

Also while the catholic church in previous centuries was a barbaric and intolerant religon it has not been that way for at least 100 years. Given that Chrstianity is only about 800 years older than Islam why is Islam still being used to barbaric purpose? Is there anyone here, Muslim or not, who would want to live under Sharia law? Could it be that Islam was nothing more than a tool used by Mohammad to gain power and justify his every excess? And if so, wouldn't it naturally follow that it is inherantly designed to be a tool for the enslavement of people?



posted on Aug, 18 2004 @ 09:51 AM
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Perhaps Christianity is not teaching to kill for the last hundred years and Islam does not teach either to kill. I agree with you on that.

But the way religion is use as a tool to kill is very much in used today, look around you and the world Christians are still killing Christian through ethnic cleansing and muslins radical are killing each other also.

So in my opinion as long as religion is allowed to be a tool of interpretation in the hands of men kind killings in the name of religious beliefs will happened as long as men is living on earth.

Sounds like a no end to violence to me. Right?



posted on Aug, 18 2004 @ 11:01 AM
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To me, all religious bring nothing but death and destruction. It's all about "my religion is better than your religion... my god is real.. yours is not" kind of thinking. Often leading to war.

Yes, religion throughout history has been used as a tool by man to control mass amounts of people.

Islam and Christianty are equally as bad. It's worthless to bicker over a religious belief system.. since there is not one universal belief but many variants of each system.

[edit on 18-8-2004 by RedOctober90]



posted on Aug, 18 2004 @ 01:33 PM
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So how after reading the words of your prophet can you say Islam is a religon of tolerance and love? Nowhere in the words of Jesus will you find these types of sentiments.


Not in the words of Jesus, no, but you will in the words of God, hehe...
At least if you are reading any version of the Bible.

No faith is, in and of itself, a fascist social structure....but it can be USED to be so. Evidence of this can be seen with many religions, not just Islam. Christianity is a close contender as well.



posted on Aug, 18 2004 @ 01:39 PM
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Gazrok,

lets not go into the world of the first testament that was the times of search conquer and destroy in the name of the lord.



posted on Aug, 18 2004 @ 03:29 PM
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Yep...like most of us, God seemed to mellow out a bit after having a kid...



posted on Aug, 21 2004 @ 09:02 PM
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it could BECOME a facist culture
1. they already have a scapgoat = jews/the west
2. already a fantical following
3. a leader(s)
4. and they want to become like a idiological past

all they need is someone to take charge and could make the majority a facist (country)



posted on Aug, 21 2004 @ 09:19 PM
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Originally posted by UK Wizard
i think that Islam and the western powers will end up at war (maybe- WW3), Islam is not tolerant of other religions and non-islamic people so you can picture extremists uniting the Middle East and cutting off the west's oil supply, then invading europe

how the hell would be fight back without fuel


What about Western extremists invading Islamic countries to steal their oil. Oh wait, already happening.



posted on Aug, 27 2004 @ 05:59 AM
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Originally posted by UK Wizard
i think that Islam and the western powers will end up at war (maybe- WW3), Islam is not tolerant of other religions and non-islamic people so you can picture extremists uniting the Middle East and cutting off the west's oil supply, then invading europe


How does this answer whether or not Islam is a fascist social structure?



posted on Aug, 27 2004 @ 06:37 AM
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by paperclip

Number two, Hadith, the alleged words of muhammad, are words of men written after his death during the fight for leadership. When in doubt about those words consult the Qur'an, the WHOLE book translated properly.


Right on!
That same can be said about 99% of chistianity (new testament) this is not a AUTOBIOGRAPHY of Jesus which chistians practically assume it is, but no its OTHER PEOPLES opinion (mat,mark,luke,john et al) on Jesus and what he said. A load of claptrap, its like wanting to be come a nazi and reading the hitler diaries but not mein kampf. Come on how can you base a religion on the techings of this Jesus bloke but not actually have anything he said on direct record? Beats me...
Oh in terms of chistianity "being nice" check out the old testament, wich all 3 religons (judeism, Chirstianity and Islam) agree on, and you will see child sacrifice (attempted) murder, rape and pillage etc.



posted on Aug, 27 2004 @ 07:23 AM
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I remember watching 20/20 some years ago and they were interviewing a guy in apartheid S.Africa. He was using Biblical references to show that God seperated the light and the dark, ie white and black. There are assholes in every religion who use their religion to justify atrocity. As far as Muslims not being tolerant of Jews and Christians, they are known as 'people of the book,' since Abraham, Ishmael, and Jesus are all Muslim prophets. Tariq Aziz, deputy prime minister of Iraq, was Christian.



posted on Aug, 27 2004 @ 07:26 AM
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Aren't all these religious books (Bible, Testaments, Q'uran, Torah), just written by people who wanted to give guidance to those around them.

The mistake was claiming or assuming they come from a higher authority.

All these self proclaiming faiths have no better affect on the world, than cancer spreading itself throughout the body.

If you believe your God is the one true God, why do you need to fight, can't you just have FAITH, isn't that what it's all about.

It amazes me how blindly people follow without question, except when it's someone elses faith, then the questions and accusations never stop.

What a sad fickle people we are....!!



posted on Aug, 27 2004 @ 08:31 AM
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Koka:
Give guidance or control?
Its a fine line and sadly every one seems to gather on the control side most of the time.



posted on Aug, 27 2004 @ 08:36 AM
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Of course it was control....

Just look at the story of Adam and Eve...

God forbid them to eat of the fruit of the Tree of Knowledge (spare me the Tree of Knowledge of Good and Evil crap...that was added later, not by the authors). In other words, stay ignorant, and listen only to me and my priests. Talk about control....



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