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China's 1st Aircraft Carrier, Shi Lang, in Sea Trial: Report just hours old....

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posted on Aug, 10 2011 @ 05:21 PM
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reply to post by silent thunder
 





If I were the paranoid type, heh heh, I might wonder, maybe too rapidly? Why is all this unfolding suddenly and simultaneously, almost like the rollout of a masterfully crafted, multi-stage plan? Operating in tandem with the arc of descent that is the fading of US unipolarity, perhaps...a simultaneous take-down-and-rise-up?


Thats about how I see it. The Chinese saw what was coming, the decline of western power due to the wrecked economic situation. They planned accordingly and will be rising as western militaries struggle to stay even. The next 2-4 years will be telling.

Kinda reads like a bad sci-fi redux of WWII. Depression then war. Wash, rinse and repeat.....

The drive to control the worlds resources is adding fuel, along with social-economic pressures. On all countries.




posted on Aug, 10 2011 @ 09:07 PM
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reply to post by bekod
 


Really? You're using the argument of a timeframe when the US had a handful of ships in the Pacific to now when it has numerous amounts in the midst, plus multiple bases and radar stations between here and China? That's not even a comparison as such to apples and oranges.

reply to post by bekod
 


Yes, it's been pointed out that the Raptor was grounded due to a suspected issue with oxygen generation systems. We've got it. You have yet to provide undeniable proof that the J20 is set on course to actually be a fighter, and not a demostrator. You also have not addressed as to how China would afford mass production of such an aircraft in their current economic state with the rest of the aircraft projects they have ongoing. Let alone missile production.

Let's speculate for a moment, and say the J20 is an actual prototype aircraft which is under development for actual combat purposes, explain to me how this aircraft would enter service within the next 20-25 years? Are you trying to also imply that the F-22 would not be combat ready in 20-25 years, with other air force prototypes coming out of the woodwork? How am I supposed to believe that?



posted on Aug, 10 2011 @ 10:42 PM
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Originally posted by Shugo
Let's speculate for a moment, and say the J20 is an actual prototype aircraft which is under development for actual combat purposes, explain to me how this aircraft would enter service within the next 20-25 years? Are you trying to also imply that the F-22 would not be combat ready in 20-25 years, with other air force prototypes coming out of the woodwork? How am I supposed to believe that?



J20 will be in production in 5-10 years. Catch up when you have the capability to gain, legally or ilegally, the research data from the original research teams really speeds up development time.

This model is most likely a prototype/demonstartor similar to how production was run in the west in the 50's-60's. Design, build, test, and modify on the line.

It will most likely to be less capable than the F-22 (it is still their first), but it could potentially be built in far larger numbers than the F-22.

People always forget that ,although China's defense spending is less than US defense spending in terms of absolute US dollars....one US dollar goes a lot further in China than in the US. You could, concievably, multiply China's defense spending by 5-10 to get a much closer evaluation of their military budget, relative to their economy. Kind of the same position the US was in in the 50's-70's when they had how many different projects going? 51 publically acknowledged.

Overall, China is far more concerned with India than the US. India is the same. They will be at each other long before any attacks on US forces or country. They are in direct competition for limited, necessity, resources...water.
edit on 10-8-2011 by peck420 because: (no reason given)



posted on Aug, 10 2011 @ 10:49 PM
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reply to post by peck420
 


Unless there is a source I am missing, all of the reports are unconfirmed of the J-20's status as far as development, or forseeable operation time. I never insinuated that China's defense budget was smaller, in fact...I would venture to say it is still relatively smaller compared to the US, but is by no means "small" in size. My issue rises from the fact that they are economically unable to produce the aircraft in large quantities as you've presented due to the amount of money tied up in many other defense programs that are ongoing...including several from before the J-20 was even brought into the light.

With the continuing downspiral of economic pressure China is twirling down these days, I just can not forsee a J-20 production of any values, even in 5-10 years.

Furthermore, please cite me some resources that definitively report that the J-20's production is imminent for the next 5-10 years, that it is in fact a prototype, and where China's means to fund such a production is coming from?

Not to be rude, but I will not believe even for ten seconds that this is a realistic timeframe by anymeans at this stage.
edit on 10.8.2011 by Shugo because: (no reason given)



posted on Aug, 11 2011 @ 12:22 AM
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here is a link that one should read, it might put some light on this,will the Carrier have plans by the end of the year? i say by oct cnair.top81.cn... update of the J20 is at the end of page



posted on Aug, 11 2011 @ 04:40 PM
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reply to post by bekod
 


Using this link you provided (and I am violating my own ethics by doing so, as this is not an official, nor necessarily credible resource) I find a few key things in the article, in particular about the J-20:



...J-20 (Project 718) is a 4th generation heavy multi-role fighter...


A generation which is on a similar plateau as the F-15 and F/A-18E/F. However, this article has a consistency issue, as in the beginning it states that it is a prototype/technology demonstrator. While this would give us the assumption it is similar in strand to the YF-22...I have some key problems with that statement. Simply because no other resources I have found verify whether or not it is either one of these.



...to enter the service with PLAAF between 2016 and 2018, a timeframe much faster than the one (>2020) anticipated by the western military analysts...


When was this article written? How can a country that is going bankrupt and has money tied up in all these other projects, and I might add FEW are listed on the page, have the money to incorporate into any form of mass production...then again, I should further add that the same page does nothing of the sort, in indicating that such a production line is being proposed.

(I should add that it appears that the article was written 8/7, but with who and what all in mind? Certainly not taking into account the global economy.)

Lastly, the summation of the J-20 points out that it is no rival to the F-22, and may not even rival the PAK-FA. This is more of a conflict between China and Russia, than China and the United States.

What they decide to stock the carrier with is a different story, I have no problems believing that they have an arsenal ready and at hand for it, but I think to propose that the aircraft in question, the J-20...is not an aircraft that will be immediately stocked, or even a considerable threat to the United States.

I want to be clear, my issues with the whole thing are not with the fact that the J-20 necessarily is meant for the Varyag, or the fact that it is a technologically modern fighter, it's with the fact that people seem to think that it spells big trouble for the United States, and I can't see where the idea is coming from at all. I also want to add in bekod, that I do appreciate you bringing links into this, and furthering the discussion. I appreciate the friendly opposition.



posted on Aug, 12 2011 @ 02:27 AM
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Taiwan revealed a new missile, what kind of PR do they have?


The Least Subtle Weapon in the History of Weapons

What do you do when your little island nation is under the constant implied threat of military annihilation from China, and China launches its first ever aircraft carrier? Debut your fancy new aircraft carrier-destroying missile. Complete with scary artwork!


gizmodo.com...



posted on Aug, 12 2011 @ 10:50 AM
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reply to post by Shugo
 
The reason is this no other nation has in a short time frame built up a mil complex as this and it did catch all off guard as to how fast china has made it's advancement's in missile, naval, and air craft, technology. China does want Twain, is willing to back North Korea and needs all this to so. The only reason they, china, would need a carrier is first strike. add all this up and it does not look good. Here are some toys china is working on EMP www.globalsecurity.org... 5th gen J20, yes it is the 5th Gen defense-update.com... their anti ship missile www.foxnews.com... now what is surprising about all this is they , china have done all this in short time, the real question is why do they feel threatened or are they going to be the threat?


edit on 12-8-2011 by bekod because: (no reason given)



posted on Aug, 12 2011 @ 12:25 PM
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Boxer Rebellion Part II

Europe, Russia, and the US built up China....with plans to topple it and make them pay reparations again...to keep them your manufacturing slaves.

It's your money that made China what it is today. They'd still be picking rice from fields if it wasn't for Russia,Europe, and the US pouring their national wealth into China.

So when all those areas in the US get nuked and millions die....thank a Walmart Shopper and write letters thanking Corporations and the Banks.



posted on Aug, 12 2011 @ 11:14 PM
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reply to post by bekod
 


None of your cited sources that you have provided thus far have indicated that the J-20 is a fifth generation fighter. Furthermore, none of the sources you have linked to have the best credibility of being reliable (IE Global Defense, and Fox).

The only reason China is revamping it's technology is to offset conflict tensions between Taiwan and India. Using it offensively against the US is still inconcievable, no matter how you scale it at this time.



posted on Aug, 13 2011 @ 01:38 AM
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reply to post by Shugo
 
well lets see if this stays up for they all link to the J20 as china's 5th gen J20 search.yahoo.com... one such link is

China’s 5th Generation Fighter Exposed | Defense Update
Defense Update - China’s 5th Generation Fighter Exposed ... A collage of images taken by Chinese aviation enthusiasts showing the J-20 'Black Silk' 5th Generation stealth ...
defense-update.com/wp/20101227_j-20.html - Cached
so you see the J20 is called a 5th gen and some can not seem to make up there minds as what to call it search.yahoo.com... here is one

Chinese Fifth Generation Stealth Fighter J-20 Black Eagle ...
Chinese Fifth Generation Stealth Fighter J-20 Black Eagle ... J-20 Chinese 5th Generation Fighter Aircraft New... Russian Air ...
asian-defence.blogspot.com/...fifth-generation-stealth.html - Cached
some things they do have right one it is made in china , second it is called the J20, and third it is a gen jet fighter now the question must be could it be carrier ready by 2018? if not sooner, if so how big of a threat would the 3 be, the carrier, the missile,and the J20?



posted on Aug, 14 2011 @ 12:27 AM
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reply to post by bekod
 


That would be the case, considering you're typing and telling Yahoo to only show results for a page that includes the "5th Generation" tagline. The only "official"-esque resource on the web that currently reflects that the J-20 is in fact such an aircraft is Wikipedia:



The Chengdu J-20 (Jian-20; simplified Chinese: 歼-二十; traditional Chinese: 殲-二十; pinyin: Jiān èr shí; literally "Annihilator-Twenty") is a fifth generation stealth, twin-engine fighter aircraft prototype developed by Chengdu Aircraft Industry Group for the Chinese People's Liberation Army Air Force.[5][6] In late 2010, the J-20 underwent high speed taxiing tests. The J-20 made its first flight on 11 January 2011.[7][8] General He Weirong, Deputy Commander of the People's Liberation Army Air Force said in November 2009 that he expected the J-20 to be operational in 2017–2019


I would like to note however, that Wikipedia is an open-source based website, which many people have access to modify, and as such is not considered the most credible resource. I further add that the article was modified just days ago



This page was last modified on 12 August 2011 at 01:38


Which is funny, because up until 2 or 3 days ago, the page never specifically said it WAS a fifth generation craft, nor did it say it was in fact a demonstrator.

Supposing that the article information is correct, and credible, this piece of information sticks out to support my claims that the J-20 poses no imminent danger to the US:



Director of National Intelligence James R. Clapper has testified that the United States has known about the program for a "long time" and that the test flight was not a surprise.


en.wikipedia.org...

Please feel free to read further.



posted on Aug, 14 2011 @ 12:43 AM
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did anyone bother to notice. WHAT ON EARTH. The front end is bowed to the sky. WHY , would they do that? How long is this thing? look at the nose front of this thing. wtf. why would they construct this, what purpose. What are they trying to do, CATCH A WAVE with the thing. WHAT is this for rough seas, ICEBREAKER what.



posted on Aug, 14 2011 @ 12:52 AM
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Originally posted by Shugo
The F-35 is a discarded project,



No it isn't! Not by a long shot!

As for this carrier, it's taken them a bloody long time to "build" a ship the Soviets built 30 years ago....

It's just a test bed so they can get used to carrier ops. It'll be at least another 10 years before they can design and build one of their own.



posted on Aug, 14 2011 @ 09:10 AM
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reply to post by cloaked4u
 


There are a lot of aircraft carriers which weild the bowed design, Russian carriers in particular:

The Viraat of India
The Cavour of Italy
The Kuznestov of Russia
The Principe de Asturias of Spain
The Juan Carlos of Spain
The Chakri Naruebet of Thailand

The whole concept is to assist with aircraft taking off, it doesn't really have anything to do with the carrier being "special." It's also important to note this is a Russian Carrier that was sold to China. China is not the one who built it.

Also, um...it's an aircraft carrier, why wouldn't they design it to be tough, well built, and heavy duty? An aircraft carrier is more times than not the flagship of a fleet, why would you want it to be easily penetrable? Of course it's designed for rough seas!



Also, when I said the F-35 is a discarded project, I didn't refer to it entirely, but they have cancelled/suspended the project for the time being.

edit on 14.8.2011 by Shugo because: Fixed links

edit on 14.8.2011 by Shugo because: (no reason given)



posted on Aug, 14 2011 @ 09:22 AM
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reply to post by cloaked4u
 


It's to launch aircraft from ships that don't have catapults. Believe it or not:

en.wikipedia.org...



posted on Aug, 14 2011 @ 09:36 AM
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reply to post by ErEhWoN
 




China has plans for 5 carriers, two purported to be nuclear supercarriers. So what you all think of this development? I think at the very least it will lead to new cold war, may even go hot. What say you?


First of all, I think we - here in the west, overall - created this potential monster. America alone has shipped the majority of her industrial base to that country and in turn, we now have an adversary that is powered by America. If there is a war, then we basically just buried ourselves while digging for gold. Greed kills.

As far as the carrier(s)? It takes more than a ship with a deck and planes to make the concept work. These are incredibly complex systems that won't get any simpler over time. But like the battleships of WW2, the carrier is on its last go-round. Within a decade or so, they will become easy targets from most anywhere on the planet. In simple terms, their survivablity factor will plummet to next to nothing.

The next wave will be autonomous, long endurance unmanned aircraft. They will fly in large numbers for extended periods and be capable of delivering ordinance to any spot on Earth or dog-fighting, as needed. The unmanned aircraft will quickly become superior to their manned counterparts because there won't be restrictions on g-forces or physical fatigue.

But for those who think that war will someday be strictly robotic? Not hardly. If your robot army loses a war to an enemy's robot army, who do you think will take their place? I mean, no nation is going to surrender if their machines fail. They still have people.



posted on Aug, 14 2011 @ 09:56 AM
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reply to post by ErEhWoN
 


American military power is vast and hidden. It is unwise to mistake an expression of weakness for decline.



posted on Aug, 14 2011 @ 10:16 AM
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Originally posted by Echtelion
ah-ha! This sounds like that legendary confrontation between the Bismark and the Royal Navy's equivalent to the Super Stardestroyer, the HMS Hood... originally not designed for confrontation with Britain's superior fleet, but ended up smashing their flagship down to bits.


HMS Hood was just a Battlecruiser, granted one of the newer ones, but was hardly the fleet Flagship or even the most powerful ship. HMS Prince of Wales was the taskforce Flagship that engaged the Bismark and the Prinz Eugen, with the Hood as an escort. Despite being batter by both German Battleships, the Prince of Wales emerged largely unscathed, unlike the Hood which took a beating. The fact that the Hood is the only one of it's class to have been built is telling of the limitations of the class and it certainly wasn't vaunted as a "super star destroyer"!



posted on Aug, 14 2011 @ 10:19 AM
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Originally posted by Shugo
Also, um...it's an aircraft carrier, why wouldn't they design it to be tough, well built, and heavy duty? An aircraft carrier is more times than not the flagship of a fleet, why would you want it to be easily penetrable? Of course it's designed for rough seas!


The Chinese didn't "design or build" it at all! It's a refitted old Soviet Carrier and to be honest, if I was to choose, I'd rather have the hardy Soviet engineering than the crap China produces.


Originally posted by Shugo

Also, when I said the F-35 is a discarded project, I didn't refer to it entirely, but they have cancelled/suspended the project for the time being.



No, it isn't! I have no idea why you think this. In fact, the F-35C has just completed catapult launch tests and it remains on the order books for both the US and UK at least. In fact, our future carrier task force hinges on taking delivery of the F-35C. I believe you may be confused with the British changing of minds for the B to C variant, but the project is very much alive.

EDIT: I see why you're confused. The fleet has been temporarily grounded while they work out a kink in a power system. This is hardly suspended or cancelling the program, is it? Considering it is under development still, these things are expected.

If you say something is cancelled or suspended, that means all work has stopped and the program has been shelved, this is not the case.
edit on 14/8/11 by stumason because: (no reason given)



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