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Chavez to Expand Powers Following Recall Win

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posted on Aug, 17 2004 @ 11:03 PM
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On the heels of his recall 'victory', President Hugo Chavez of Venezuela has announced, through various lieutenants, that he intends to enact more 'reforms':
news.yahoo.com.../ap/20040817/ap_on_re_la_am_ca/venezuela_recall_8&printer=1


"Strengthened by his victory in a recall referendum, Venezuelan President Hugo Chavez set his sights Tuesday on centralizing power, including exerting control over the courts, local police and the nation's broadcast stations."

For those who don't know, freedom of the press and local, civic control of police forces are considered hallmarks of an advanced democracy, as is independence of the judiciary...

"Chavez said at a news conference late Monday that the victory will give his government a "catalyzing energy" to carry out its initiatives, including "completing the transformation of the judicial branch."

...So, it seems like Chavez is now trying to overtly institute a dictatorship.

This is important because the US imports a lot of oil from Venezuela. One wonders... when the US will begin to forcefully pursue its interests in Venezuela...




posted on Aug, 18 2004 @ 11:23 AM
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So having 'recalled' and forced Chavez to face the popular vote, which he won thanks to a record turnout, Chavez is now to just be accused of attempting to be a dictator anyway!?

Wow how does that work?!

He is emphatically the duly democratically elected leader in Venuzuela, this mandate was witnessed by international independant observers who said that this vote had more credibility than the 2000 vote in florida!

The US 'right' might not care for the guy but they have no right to stomp about the globe trying to impose their idea of a suitable and pliable leader on independant countries....

....and if they do think so would they kindly just drop the pretence and 'come out' as the sad little fascists they actually are and do us all a favour?



[edit on 18-8-2004 by sminkeypinkey]



posted on Aug, 18 2004 @ 11:31 AM
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THis is a load of horseshyte. I mean, disinformation!

The NEOCONS just can't get over the fact that they have ABSOLUTELY NO control over VENEZUELA. The people have spoken. He's a hero to the little people. It's the top 2or3 % of the wealthy landowners who can't stand him. And they are aided and abetted by CIA dirty tricks! Do not swallow this! If you support Democracy, then you support the LEGALLY elected Chavez.

See this for what it is and GET OVER IT!



posted on Aug, 18 2004 @ 11:39 AM
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He's basically a socialist (Ive been led to believe) that wants to increase the powers of the government (understood) but to control the press and the media????
Im confused as to the kind of socialism this is supposed to be...
Of course this reinforces my belief as to why socialism has never been worth a s*** wherever its popped up.

I wonder how long the "suffering poor" will support this man.

There is no friend anywhere - Lao Tse



posted on Aug, 18 2004 @ 11:43 AM
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You're confused because this is nothing but pure Rovian bovine horseshyte. Open your eyes, man, see it for what it is. The mass of Venezuelens LOVE Chavez. Trust me on that.

This just in..

Carter and Gaviria have been working for two years to find a solution to the often bloody political crisis that has gripped Venezuela, the world’s fifth-largest oil exporting nation.
Rampersad claimed touch-screen voting machines in at least 500 polling sites produced the exact same number of “yes” votes in favor of ousting Chavez, a result he said was statistically impossible. He said the supposed finding indicated the machines were rigged to impose a ceiling on “yes” votes.
AP



posted on Aug, 18 2004 @ 11:52 AM
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Um... yeah...

If he brings the Judiciary under his direct control he is, by definition, a dictator.

There's no way around that. He already forcefully rewrote the constitution so as to give him control over the legislature...

When you have the elimination of free press, the elimination of an independent judiciary, the creation of a rubber stamp legislature, and the direct assumption of police powers... you have a dictatorship. He is literally dictating the laws of his country.

So far as his recall 'victory'....

Considering how happy his goons are to shoot at his political opponents, are you really surprised that he won? Considering that most TV stations are probably afraid of him... are you surprised that they won't dare to point out how he's created a situation where he dictates the laws?

I knew a girl in college named Mayra. She was from Venezuela. Her father had been an engineer... not a wealthy man, just a moderately placed, educated professional. Well... during one of Chavez's redistribution 'reforms' he not only took everything away from them (which really wasn't much to begin with), he made sure to have many engineers, architects, and other professionals blacklisted and prevented from working. No, her family -- and those of many others -- weren't a part of the previous regime.... they had only made the mistake of being educated, professional people under a regime that has an ideological hatred of the middle class and modernization. They had made the mistake of being intelligent in a climate where ignorance had somehow become the ideal.

In short, they were 21st century people caught in a wannabe Marxist time warp.

So... let me ask you this... do you really think a country can suceed if it punishes its educated citizens, if it punishes those who have made a life for themselves? Can a society grow and enter the future with confidence if anyone who innovates within it is attacked by the state for having a brain that isn't convinced by vague 'folk' movements? Can a nation prosper if its middle class is forced to become poor?

[edit on 18-8-2004 by onlyinmydreams]



posted on Aug, 18 2004 @ 12:26 PM
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You wanna know what a meddling dictator is? Look no further than George W. Bush. He needs to keep his filthy little paws off of other sovereign nations. But then again, we are talking about G.W.
He doesn't answer to anybody.



posted on Aug, 18 2004 @ 02:50 PM
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Originally posted by onlyinmydreams

Um... yeah...

If he brings the Judiciary under his direct control he is, by definition, a dictator.

There's no way around that. He already forcefully rewrote the constitution so as to give him control over the legislature...

When you have the elimination of free press, the elimination of an independent judiciary, the creation of a rubber stamp legislature, and the direct assumption of police powers... you have a dictatorship. He is literally dictating the laws of his country.


- Yet the people have just endorsed his leadership overwhelmingly.

Maybe the great majority of their people reject the 'idea' that this quasi dictatorship has occurred?


So far as his recall 'victory'....

Considering how happy his goons are to shoot at his political opponents, are you really surprised that he won? Considering that most TV stations are probably afraid of him... are you surprised that they won't dare to point out how he's created a situation where he dictates the laws?


- I don't believe for one moment that the electorate in Venuzuela (convulsed by troubles as it has lately been) was unaware of the choices.

I also know from my own news services that 'goons' were most definitely not confined to one side alone in that country.


I knew a girl in college named Mayra. She was from Venezuela. Her father had been an engineer... not a wealthy man, just a moderately placed, educated professional. Well... during one of Chavez's redistribution 'reforms' he not only took everything away from them (which really wasn't much to begin with), he made sure to have many engineers, architects, and other professionals blacklisted and prevented from working. No, her family -- and those of many others -- weren't a part of the previous regime.... they had only made the mistake of being educated, professional people under a regime that has an ideological hatred of the middle class and modernization. They had made the mistake of being intelligent in a climate where ignorance had somehow become the ideal.

In short, they were 21st century people caught in a wannabe Marxist time warp.


- Hmm, OK you have your anecdotal stories, fair enough. I won't agrue that all is well in that country because I know it isnt.

I also know it had massive problems long before Chavez came to power.

The country has a vast gulf in living standards between top and bottom and the electorate, by substantial and significant majority have given Chavez a mandate, fully aware of his social policies, demanding this be addressed.

They demand some sort of redistributive progressive tax system to ease the worst for those at the very bottom in their society. That may not how things are done in the USA but it is most definitely not communism. It is actually in keeping with the social democratic capitalism run by most of the world's capitalist economies.

So what? That is how many many countries operate, happily. If you don't believe that is the way to do it fine, form a political party and seek votes.....oh, er, um and accept the result if you lose.

Feel free to carrry on attempting to convince people that their interests are best served by allowing the very few wealthy in that country to continue to ignore the condition of much of their nation.


So... let me ask you this... do you really think a country can suceed if it punishes its educated citizens, if it punishes those who have made a life for themselves?


- If that society is in a position where the current 'status quo' is unsustainable then the question becomes moot does it not?

So I ask you can a country truely succeed and maintain any realistic sense of stability and cohesion if it allows the creation and gross expansion of an underclass expected to live or die (without hope, being visible, trouble or demanding anything) while others remain utterly indifferent to the plight of their supposed 'nation', their country folk?


Can a society grow and enter the future with confidence if anyone who innovates within it is attacked by the state for having a brain that isn't convinced by vague 'folk' movements? Can a nation prosper if its middle class is forced to become poor?


- Some sensible redistribution of wealth is hardly "forcing" the middle class "to become poor"



posted on Aug, 18 2004 @ 05:37 PM
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Originally posted by onlyinmydreams

Um... yeah...

If he brings the Judiciary under his direct control he is, by definition, a dictator.

He is changing the law, so that instead of the National Assembly appointing Supreme Court Justices, they are instead appointed by congress.
They way it works in the States, is they are appointed by the President and approved by the Senate.
The differences between the two systems doesn't seem that great.



Considering how happy his goons are to shoot at his political opponents, are you really surprised that he won?

His political opponents who ousted him from power in a coup and organized violent riots? Those opponents? What were the circumstances that his goons shot at these opponents?


Considering that most TV stations are probably afraid of him... are you surprised that they won't dare to point out how he's created a situation where he dictates the laws?

From what I've read, a lot of the media are very critical of him and do not hold back on airing programming that is very negative.
The reforms he wants on TV are to ban broadcast which are slanderous or may incite violence.
Doesn't seem that out of line to me. Similar changes would probably be made in the US if a US president had been ousted in a Coup and had riots in the streets.



posted on Aug, 19 2004 @ 01:53 AM
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Chavez was elected fairly by the majority of the people. The man has literally put the role of the state and its resources back into the hands of the majority, the Venezeluan poor.

The reason the conservatives are so angry is because they have lost power and the ability to exploit the oil of Venezuala to live comfortable lives on the expense of others.

Chavez is the democratically elected leader of the people of Venezuala and every other person and nation in the world should respect that. Only time will tell if his term becomes a dictatorship but I believe it won't.

The man has just fought the last ten years of his life trying to be able to get the reigns of the country back into the hands of the people.

Never believe what the western media tells you about potential "dictators" with left wing leanings because they distort the truth to their own ends. Always keep an open mind and I believe that we should just let time see if he is a dictator.


thanks,
drfunk

thanks,
drfunk

[edit on 19-8-2004 by drfunk]



posted on Aug, 19 2004 @ 10:46 PM
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Originally posted by onlyinmydreams
...So, it seems like Chavez is now trying to overtly institute a dictatorship.

This is important because the US imports a lot of oil from Venezuela. One wonders... when the US will begin to forcefully pursue its interests in Venezuela...



I agree mroe with the analyst quoted at the end of the article: that Chavez seems to be a getting a little carried away with this victory.
I hope he realizes that although the temptation to protect himself from the treachery of the opposition may be great, he is walking a fine line in the eyes of the world.

However, ultimately the deciding factor of whether his administration can be considered a dictatorship or not is what he does with the rest of his time. If he abuses the powers of censorship he gives himself over the media, and/or if he refuses to relinquish power to a democratically elected rival, then he will have slipped over the line. Until then...

We must also remember that all the tenants of democracy need not be there for the government to be optimal for a given nation. Democracy is one of the present day embodiments of cultural imperialism, and we somehow feel justified in expecting the entire world allow us to force it upon it.
Venezuela enjoys more freedoms than many nations on earth, and the form of government they choose for themselves (since they do have the luxury of choice at this stage), is their business.

I am an American citizen, but I will tell you frankly that I hope Venezuela starts putting its interests way before ours. Its about time someone stood up to our meddling in foreign economies and politics, and said no.

Chavez is saying no politely, as opposed to terrorists who say no with violence. If we do not respect his decisions, and if we do not respect the self determination of Venezuelans, then we deserve the alternative expressions of 'no', including terrorist violence.

U.




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