Something in Matthew and Luke has me puzzled

reply to post by racasan


Does Jesus deny it's not satan's to give to whomever he chooses? No He doesn't, the point being man forfeited dominion to satan in the garden when man listened to him rather than God. The temptation was satan offering Christ the kingdom and the glory without going through the cross, which was the entire reason He was sent by His Father.

Originally posted by Bobaganoosh
He's not confused (the devil) the world belongs to him. In 2 Corinthians 4 3,4 the devil is referred to as the god of this world.
The world was given to the devil according to the bible, why who knows.
It makes little sense.

Man forfeited dominion to him in the garden by listening and obeying him rather than God. God gave dominion to man, and man forfeited it to satan.

Originally posted by racasan

Matt.4
[8] Again, the devil taketh him up into an exceeding high mountain, and sheweth him all the kingdoms of the world, and the glory of them;
[9] And saith unto him, All these things will I give thee, if thou wilt fall down and worship me.

Luke 4
5 And the devil, taking him up into an high mountain, shewed unto him all the kingdoms of the world in a moment of time.
6 And the devil said unto him, All this power will I give thee, and the glory of them: for that is delivered unto me; and to whomsoever I will I give it.

Ok so if Jesus is god or at lest 1/3 of him, then what on earth is the devil doing trying to tempt god (1/3) with his own property?

It would be like some person off the street coming into the house you have bought and paid for and saying “if you declare you love me you can have this house you already own”

So
Is the devil confused about who Jesus is and Jesus was just too polite to say anything?
or
Are christians confused about who Jesus is?
Or
Is the bible just a story with some daft bits in it?

I felt the need to respond to this thread just to clairify some things.

I've seen this before... people questioning why Jesus was "tempted" The context of this passage is always misunderstood. Yes he was there to be "tempted" by the devil, but if you read what his responses were, he was NOT tempted by the devil.

Satan "attempted" to tempt jesus into materialistic ways, but as you can clearly read.... He was Not tempted in the least... Jesus answered him with no problems because he knew the truth...

Mat 6
19Lay not up for yourselves treasures upon earth, where moth and rust doth corrupt, and where thieves break through and steal:

20But lay up for yourselves treasures in heaven, where neither moth nor rust doth corrupt, and where thieves do not break through nor steal:

21For where your treasure is, there will your heart be also


Oh and to answer your questions...

1. The devil knew exactly who jesus was, he was human... and thus subject to human desires, which is why he thought he could tempt him... clearly he was wrong.

2. Yes many christians are confused about who Jesus was.... The result of letting someone preach the bible to you instead of reading it for themselves.

3. Ya the bible has some "daft bits" in it... This isn't one of those cases. Look for the words of Jesus, Mostly the rest is useless.

reply to post by racasan


Dear racasan,

It is a fair question and a good one. Obviously if you don't believe in the bible the answer would be you don't believe the story in the first place.

Ok so if Jesus is god or at lest 1/3 of him, then what on earth is the devil doing trying to tempt god (1/3) with his own property? It would be like some person off the street coming into the house you have bought and paid for and saying “if you declare you love me you can have this house you already own” So Is the devil confused about who Jesus is and Jesus was just too polite to say anything?

There is very little discussion of Satan in the bible, yet, people seem to have all kinds of beliefs not based on fact. Nowhere does it say that Satan is all knowing, it just doesn't say that. It says he is a deceiver. It also (in Job) says that he accuses us day and night before the Lord and when he accused Job, he lost the argument, so he is far from brilliant, he misunderstood what a simple human being would do. That means he can be confused. He also says to Jesus that if he is the Christ then he can jump off a mountain and will be saved by angels and Jesus tells him that it says not to try the Lord.

My opinion is that Satan did not know for a fact if Jesus was the Christ, saviour at the time that he asked the question. We should also remember that Satan does not know when the end times come. It says nobody knows the time except the Lord. People talk about Armageddon as if it is the end of the world; but, that is not what the bible says. It is the end of Satan's rule on earth, it is the end of his time here, not ours. That would be something of great interest to him and the book of Revelations had yet to be written so he had little information to go on also.

Demons are also given more credit than deserved. It may make for great horror stories; but, the bible doesn't talk about how powerful they are. Firstly, it says that if you have the heart of Jesus (love for one another as he did) then demons cannot enter you. It also says that we should not seek to conjour demons. The fact that someone can allow a demon into them does not show them as powerful, it shows that humans can be weak willed. The story of Judas Iscariot is interesting in that Judas Iscariot determines to give up Jesus and at that moment he allows the devil to enter him; but, only for a short period as Judas regrets his action later and kills himself out of guilt.

I sometimes wonder what does the Devil hope to achieve. From Job we know that his end game is to prove us unworthy; but, unworthy of what? It says that one day the angels will report to humans and we do in fact read of the apostles telling demons to depart from people and they do. This again demonstrates that demons are not the powerful. It says that one third of the angels rebelled and were thrown down to earth. I believe they rebelled against God because they did not want to be under humans; but, we are not actually told why they rebelled so it is speculation on my part. Satan sought to prove that Job only loved God because he prospered and then attempted to offer Jesus goodies because he was not convinced that Jesus was the Christ, he wanted more proof. He did not get that proof until Jesus was resurrected and by then it was too late.

I answer as a believer. If one is a non-believer they could see it as a story and still answer you in the same way.

Originally posted by racasan
This is just to sum up my question – and I hope this will cover the majority of the answers I have gotten so far

If Jesus is god and god made everything then how exactly can the devil tempt god with god’s own property?

Dear racasan,

I am not convinced that the word tempt is being used properly. If I offer you something then I am tempting you, it does not necessarily result in you feeling any temptation. If Jesus wanted to have control of the world he could have as it says that God would give him whatever he wanted. Therefore there is no reason to believe that Jesus actually felt tempted to take Satan up on his offer, merely that Satan attempted to tempt Jesus.

Edit: I was reading the thread in order and answering as I went along. I can see that Akragon has already done a good job at answering this aspect.

Originally posted by MamaJ
reply to post by SuperiorEd

 

Is it your opinion we have indeed fallen too?

I have this feeling we are here to perfect in love and light. A learning tool to overcome darkness in any experience......
We are here to show others there is another way and to not be bound by earthy "things".

Does this type of thinking make sense to you?

Thanks and love to you always!!!! xoxoxox

Jenn

It's hard to say if we are fallen or just here to help out. I have a friend that remembers his previous family before he was born. There are slips in the veil for sure. If you read here , you can find many stories that are similar to yours. The Gnostic gospels allude to the fact that some of us were blessed by Jesus before we came here to be born. We are known before we arrive and are likely here to fulfill a mission.

“Everyone has his own specific vocation or mission in life to carry out; a concrete assignment which demands fulfillment. Therein he cannot be replaced, nor can his life be repeated. Thus, everyone’s task is as unique as his specific opportunity to implement it.” Victor Frankl LINK

As with all of the kingdom of God, rules apply. There is obviously some kind of rule that prohibits direct knowledge. This is clearly seen in the teachings of Jesus. He never just came out and said anything directly. It was always in a parable. We can further verify this by the symbols left in Egypt and other locations from antiquity. Symbols are all that can be used to reveal truth. Unless man writes it in faith, it cannot be revealed. This places us in the position of suffering for what we can find.

This idea goes back to the original purpose of man in the garden. Earth was designed as a place of learning by the leading of God. We were supposed to live our lives walking with God. Instead, we made the choice to walk away for our knowledge. This is the apple that is gained by life. Genesis 3 states that God was walking in the garden (Earth) and found man hiding. God has never stopped walking. It is our job to walk the paths of life for development of our sentience. God stated that if we walk apart from Him, we would toil the earth. If we walk with Him, we live in peace and joy. Earth is not merely a place for the fallen, it is also a place for the rising.

I have my own belief on suffering. I say that suffering should be the ultimate choice for a person wishing to lead a good life of peace and joy. Suffering leads to reward. Reward leads to suffering. Examples:

Smoking is a reward. It leads to lost income and cancer.

Suffering a degree and the work of a job leads to the reward of income.

There are countless examples. There are no exceptions. Manipulating the direction of suffering is the key. If we suffer for others, we are following God's law of love. If we take from the world, it takes back in multiples. If we give to the world, it gives back in multiples. None of us need a book to show this. It's obvious.

Jesus suffered every step for us. This was his yolk and burden to carry in this world. His suffering was for our ultimate joy. His own words were, "You must be born again." To me, there is no option. Hell is living a life separated from God. It is a literal place if we find ourselves there. Take a look at any life being lived apart from truth. You find hell and suffering following close behind. A homeless drug addict is a good example. Reward is taken and ultimate suffering follows.

Find a grandmother living on social security who has raised a large family. She is not wealthy, yet she is happy and cared for by her family. My grandmother lived on $400 a month up until she recently passed on. She owned her home and she never lacked. She had reward from her faith and never lacked a smile on her face. Even when she was suffering on the edge of death, happiness and joy was in her expression.

Find another grandmother living on cigarettes and liquor and you find another story completely. You find burned bridges and suffering. You find kids who are alienated from the parent following along in the same path of destruction.

We see these examples every day. It's hard to tell if we are the ones needing help or the ones helping. I suppose our fruit bears witness to our destiny.

I wrote an article on my blog that relates. LINK

It's hard to say if we are fallen or just here to help out. I have a friend that remembers his previous family before he was born. There are slips in the veil for sure. If you read here , you can find many stories that are similar to yours. The Gnostic gospels allude to the fact that some of us were blessed by Jesus before we came here to be born. We are known before we arrive and are likely here to fulfill a mission.

reply to post by SuperiorEd


Years ago my journey lead me to the Gnostic Gospels.....this is where I felt like if any where .... "I fit in". After my step son passed away from Leukemia I really started looking within and asking even more questions. I of course still seek but I am really more at peace as I have been in the past because I find through my own experiences and the experiences of others that this life is one that is not only a precious gift....but one that we can perfect in.

I can read your words and although they appear different than mine....they are the same. I am not one for quoting scripture because for one I do not think it conveys to people as it should. They do not have the understanding they need .....to know what it really conveys. The Bible is a book filled with stories...although some stories left out does indeed allow for confusion, never the less I think it is meant to be that way in order for us believers and non believers to have faith in the Spoken Word of God.

I love Jesus and everything He is about. He is my hero!!!!!

I read your blog often and feel connected to you. Its days like this and many others I find God's love for us radiating within.

Peace and love to you and yours!!!! xoxox

Jenn

Originally posted by racasan
reply to post by jmdewey60

 

sorry im finding your answers a bit cryptic - could expand on this please

In my way of thinking, Jesus having been of a god-like status before the incarnation was irrelevant at this point in Jesus' life, having become a man. The deceiver would have taken this as Jesus being vulnerable, since he had not yet exhibited miraculous abilities. The deceiver would have attempted to play on the natural propensities that a normal man will follow when presented with opportunities for their own advancement. Jesus would have cared not for physical possessions or the being able to hand these things down to the natural offspring he would be expected to sire in that hypothetical situation. His mind was in a higher place and had higher expectations for the results of his life work which he was embarking on.
My own fictional account would have this angel who when confronted with the magician, Moses, told him that he was the very same angel who had come to Abraham as the representative of God but now am coming to him, Moses, to represent myself, who I am. If you worship me, then you will have physical possession of the land, once you kill every living thing on the land. It was a deal by the devil. Not only did everything have to be destroyed but nothing could be planted to replace the destroyed agriculture for seven years, otherwise the deal is off.
Jesus could have accepted the same deal from the same angel, but it would cause a war with no survivors. Think of the Movie, the Kingdom of Heaven, where the Orlando Bloom character says "what is this place? I only care about the people."

reply to post by MamaJ


What is it with christians using fear to try and get converts?

This is what it looks like to me – god loves you but if you don’t say you love him back he will have to hurt you for ever

A text book example of an abusive relationship


thanks but no thanks

Originally posted by Akragon

Oh and to answer your questions...

1. The devil knew exactly who jesus was, he was human... and thus subject to human desires, which is why he thought he could tempt him... clearly he was wrong.

2. Yes many christians are confused about who Jesus was.... The result of letting someone preach the bible to you instead of reading it for themselves.

3. Ya the bible has some "daft bits" in it... This isn't one of those cases. Look for the words of Jesus, Mostly the rest is useless.

So you are saying Jesus is a man - I assume you think he's a great moral teacher or something

Hitchin’s covering that point
From 3.10

double post

Originally posted by jmdewey60
In my way of thinking, Jesus having been of a god-like status before the incarnation was irrelevant at this point in Jesus' life, having become a man. The deceiver would have taken this as Jesus being vulnerable

well why was the devil asking jesus to turn rocks into bread or throw himself of the mountain, would that not imply the devil thought jesus had super powers already?

reply to post by racasan


Tell me Racasan, are you seeking knowledge, or seeking to provoke. Careful how you go. Jesus said, 'Seek and ye shall find'. If you keep on asking these sorts of questions, you may well stumble over the truth. That can seriously mess with a persons head.

Originally posted by racasan

Originally posted by jmdewey60
In my way of thinking, Jesus having been of a god-like status before the incarnation was irrelevant at this point in Jesus' life, having become a man. The deceiver would have taken this as Jesus being vulnerable

well why was the devil asking jesus to turn rocks into bread or throw himself of the mountain, would that not imply the devil thought jesus had super powers already?

I would have to think of an answer since I haven't gotten that far in my fictionalized account.
The devil seems to be putting the suggestion in the form of a question, much like the serpent in the garden.
"Why don't you." then the devil misquotes scripture to make it seem like it might be ok, again like the serpent. This looks like a metaphor except it places him in the role of Eve, and not Adam. Maybe if he goes along with the suggestions, it would automatically place him in a subservient position, even if he did not overtly show the devil worship. Also the bread would be a metaphor for the fruit of the quarantined tree.
The devil would have been studying Jesus intently so would have known if Jesus had these abilities or not and probably knew he did if he chose to use them in an inappropriate manner. Jesus was lead by the Spirit into the desert, so making a tiny paradise inside that desert, even if only momentarily, would have worked against the intentions of the Spirit, thus causing a breakage of the link between the man and the God.

reply to post by triune


maybe both or maybe I’m attempting to get people to think?

And yes I noticed you haven’t given me an answer to my question

Originally posted by jmdewey60
I would have to think of an answer since I haven't gotten that far in my fictionalized account.
The devil seems to be putting the suggestion in the form of a question, much like the serpent in the garden.
Why don't you." then the devil misquotes scripture to make it seem like it might be ok, again like the serpent. This looks like a metaphor except it places him in the role of Eve, and not Adam.

actually i dont get that vibe from this bit of text - but if you do- ok

Maybe if he goes along with the suggestions, it would automatically place him in a subservient position, even if he did not overtly show the devil worship. ]

Matt.4 [8]
Again, the devil taketh him up into an exceeding high mountain, and sheweth him all the kingdoms of the world, and the glory of them; [9] And saith unto him, All these things will I give thee, if thou wilt fall down and worship me.

why is the devil asking jesus to "fall down and worship me"?

if jesus is just a man then why does the devil think he has god-like super powers?

if jesus is god the why would the devil think god (his supposed creator) will fall down and worship him?

Originally posted by racasan

Matt.4
[8] Again, the devil taketh him up into an exceeding high mountain, and sheweth him all the kingdoms of the world, and the glory of them;
[9] And saith unto him, All these things will I give thee, if thou wilt fall down and worship me.

Luke 4
5 And the devil, taking him up into an high mountain, shewed unto him all the kingdoms of the world in a moment of time.
6 And the devil said unto him, All this power will I give thee, and the glory of them: for that is delivered unto me; and to whomsoever I will I give it.

Ok so if Jesus is god or at lest 1/3 of him, then what on earth is the devil doing trying to tempt god (1/3) with his own property?

It would be like some person off the street coming into the house you have bought and paid for and saying “if you declare you love me you can have this house you already own”

So
Is the devil confused about who Jesus is and Jesus was just too polite to say anything?
or
Are christians confused about who Jesus is?
Or
Is the bible just a story with some daft bits in it?

You left out the following possibility:

Or is the OP confused about the bible?

Answer: Yes.

reply to post by racasan

why is the devil asking jesus to "fall down and worship me"?

if jesus is just a man then why does the devil think he has god-like super powers?

if jesus is god the why would the devil think god (his supposed creator) will fall down and worship him?

Think Moses and the angel not representing God, but working on his own behalf as a god.

This angel told Moses he would make him a god. Moses became a god, having all the power of the angel.

Jesus had the powers, already by receiving all power by the indwelling of the Spirit upon being baptized. Jesus knew that Spirit was there, being led by it. He was not yet aware of the extent of those powers, not yet having found a good reason to test them out.
The false angel would have been aware completely, being a past master concerning such things.
The devil knew it was his last chance, while there remained a reasonable doubt, to grant his own powers to Jesus, thus replacing the true and pure powers of God.

This angel would have not been an ordinary angel but a mighty angel, capable of withstanding any other single angel and thus was a virtual god but not the true God, but the one who the world had accepted as a god.

reply to post by XplanetX


I just had a quick look through this thread and I can see no answer to my question from you

Perhaps you would like to explain what you think is going on

Or do you think taking pot shots at me will somehow make my questions go away

reply to post by jmdewey60


Your explanation makes only a little more sense than the standard christian one and to me it looks like this:


Jesus steps into the heavenly quantum leap accelerator and vanishes - only to find himself inside a Jewish teenage girl – at this point he probably says “oh boy”

The Jewish teenage girl gives birth to him and he grows up – unfortunately just like every body else who use a quantum leap accelerator his mind is Swiss cheese and it’s at this point his foe(?) realises Jesus is in a confused state and so he tries to tempt Jesus with stuff(?), but Jesus wins through (probably with the help of Gabri(Al))

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