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Why do masons get angry at people researching their beliefs?

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posted on Jun, 26 2012 @ 09:05 PM
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If ever a Mason is angry at the idea of one who searches and/or researches the Masonic Beliefs...
There probably is a measure in the one which wits has evaded and the Mason knows it.




posted on Jun, 26 2012 @ 09:15 PM
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Originally posted by FriedBabelBroccoli
reply to post by Fitzgibbon
 


speculative masons and irregular lodges merely come from a lodge that has yet to be accepted by the Grand Blue lodges which is an easy out to say they are not from the same masonic community.


Really? Wow! You really are well-versed in stuff. Are all your answers so accurate?


Originally posted by FriedBabelBroccoli
Your blue lodges are merely a collection of lodges with a public face to denounce any actions from other lodges which would mar the appearance of Masonry as a whole.

Like a PR firm.

LoL deny it as you will but you know I see through it, deceive the others all you like but I will be laughing when you knock on wood and there is no one there to answer


Really? Wow! You really are well-versed in stuff. Are all your answers so accurate?



Originally posted by FriedBabelBroccoli
You may think you have been reborn but that is all a matter of perspective.


As an Anglican, the reborn thing happened many years before I was a Mason. For the Jewish, Sikh and Muslim members of my lodge, there isn't that in the equation of their faiths let alone as part of Masonry. Where on Earth do you get your information? Is it rectally mined?

Fitz



posted on Jun, 26 2012 @ 09:30 PM
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reply to post by Fitzgibbon
 


Way to dodge the previous accusations.

Why so hostile with all the anal play references, I'm not here to get you excited?



posted on Jun, 26 2012 @ 09:45 PM
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Originally posted by FriedBabelBroccoli
reply to post by Fitzgibbon
 


Way to dodge the previous accusations.


No dodge. Just because you're not recognising your own shortcoming, don't expect that someone else won't point out the Emperor's nudity.


Originally posted by FriedBabelBroccoli
Why so hostile with all the anal play references, I'm not here to get you excited?


Why do you frame that as a question. Are you unsure?

Fitz



posted on Jun, 26 2012 @ 10:00 PM
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reply to post by Fitzgibbon
 


No confusion just poor sentence structure (no pun intended LoL).

Grand Lodge
en.wikipedia.org...



A Grand Lodge, or "Grand Orient", is the usual governing body of "Craft", or "Blue Lodge", Freemasonry in a particular jurisdiction. The first Masonic Grand Lodge was established in England in 1717 as the Premier Grand Lodge of England.[1] The head of a Grand Lodge is called the Grand Master, and the other officers of the Grand Lodge prefix "Grand" to the titles of Lodge officers. Some Grand Lodges have established Provincial Grand Lodges as an organisational layer between themselves and member Lodges.

There is no central body to oversee all of the Grand Lodges in the world, and therefore, individual Grand Lodge policies and practices can and do vary, though they have a similar basic framework in common. The lack of a central authority means that Grand Lodges are held together simply by fellowship with one another. Despite this decentralization, many outsiders associate New World Order conspiracy theories with Masonry.


There is no global authority so you can get away by saying they are not part of your lodge or they weren't accepted my such and such lodge.

You may not have that particular ritual or interpretation in your lodge, but it seems you all are a mosh-pit of rituals/teachings/practices



Masons conduct their meetings using a ritualised format. There is no single Masonic ritual, and each jurisdiction is free to set (or not set) its own ritual. However, there are similarities that exist among jurisdictions. For example, all Masonic ritual makes use of the architectural symbolism of the tools of the medieval operative stonemason. Freemasons, as speculative masons (meaning philosophical building rather than actual building), use this symbolism to teach moral and ethical lessons of the principles of "Brotherly Love, Relief, and Truth;" or as related in France, "Liberty, Equality, Fraternity."

The Square and Compasses carved into stone

Two of the principal symbolic tools always found in a Lodge are the square and compasses. Some Lodges and rituals explain these tools as lessons in conduct: for example, that Masons should "square their actions by the square of virtue" and to learn to "circumscribe their desires and keep their passions within due bounds toward all mankind." However, as Freemasonry is non-dogmatic, there is no general interpretation for these tools (or any Masonic emblem) that is used by Freemasonry as a whole.[25]

These moral lessons are communicated in performance of allegorical ritual. A candidate progresses through degrees[20] gaining knowledge and understanding of himself, his relationship with others and his relationship with the Supreme Being (per his own interpretation). While the philosophical aspects of Freemasonry tend to be discussed in Lodges of Instruction or Research, and sometimes informal groups, Freemasons, and others, frequently publish, with varying degrees of competence, studies that are available to the public. Any mason may speculate on the symbols and purpose of Freemasonry, and indeed all masons are required to some extent to speculate on masonic meaning as a condition of advancing through the degrees. There is no one accepted meaning, and no one person "speaks" for the whole of Freemasonry.[26]


The above would explain why your particular lodge may not have a specific ritual while also exposing a clever guise to shift blame of any wrong doings to "unaccepted" practices as there is no official list of such things.



posted on Jun, 26 2012 @ 10:12 PM
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reply to post by Fitzgibbon
 


You really don't know what the difference is between operative and speculative Masonry is, do you? Go ahead. It's OK to admit it. Because you surely aren't kidding anyone by trying to throw out links as camouflage.

Fitz



posted on Jun, 26 2012 @ 10:53 PM
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Originally posted by Fitzgibbon
reply to post by Fitzgibbon
 


You really don't know what the difference is between operative and speculative Masonry is, do you? Go ahead. It's OK to admit it. Because you surely aren't kidding anyone by trying to throw out links as camouflage.

Fitz


Operative Freemasonry
www.themasonictrowel.com...



The Operative Period of Freemasonry was brought to a close and gave place to the Transition Period by a series of historical events which, by one of the most extraordinary coincidences known in history, occurred within a few years of each other. Henry VIII broke Great Britain's tie with the Pope and prepared the way for the Reformation. The same King also abolished the gild system - which was followed by the Mercantile System, a period in business and finance which present - day theorists in economics find it convenient to forget! The Renaissance broke into final flower, in the form of the printing press, printed books, and changed the mental climate in Britain as much as in Europe generally. The discovery of America by Columbus opened the sluice-gates to the Age of Exploration, a wild and adventurous time in which Europe exploded itself over all the world. Gothic architecture gave way with an almost abrupt suddenness to a new style in architecture which originated in Italy and has since passed under many names, such as Classical, Neo Classical, Italian, Palladian and Wren. The old trade secrets of the Operative Freemasons could be kept secret no longer after Euclid's Geometry was published in print, along with many other lesser, old secrets in the arts and sciences. The center of control in Freemasonry passed from the individual Freemason going here and there in his work, and from his temporary Lodges, into the permanent Lodges which were constituted under authority of manuscript copies of the Old Charges, and from them passed into the new Grand Lodge System after 1717 A.D.


Master Mason Apron
www.masonicsupplyshop.com...

Looks to me like there is an all seeing eye on the vast majority of the aprons . . .

Brother George Washington's Masonic Apron
on display at the Grand Lodge of Pennsylvania in Philadelphia
www.phoenixmasonry.org...

Are you now going to say GW'ya was an operative mason?

Or that the Mormon church was not started by Freemasons?

Mormonism and Freemasonry
en.wikipedia.org...



A significant numbers of leaders in the early Latter Day Saint movement were Masons prior to their involvement in the movement. Notable examples include Brigham Young, Heber C. Kimball, John C. Bennett, Hyrum Smith and Joseph Smith, Sr.

In the early 1840s a Masonic Lodge was formed by LDS Church members who were Freemasons. Joseph Smith, Jr. and his brother Hyrum became members of the newly formed Nauvoo lodge. It appears that John C. Bennett had a particularly strong influence in the spread of Freemasonry, and soon over 1,500 Mormon men in the city of Nauvoo were practicing Masons. LDS historian Reed Durham writes:

"By 1840, John Cook Bennett, a former active leader in Masonry had arrived in Commerce and rapidly exerted his persuasive leadership in all facets of the Church, including Mormon Masonry. ... Joseph and Sidney [Rigdon] were inducted into formal Masonry ... on the same day..." being made "Masons on Sight" by the Illinois Grandmaster.("Is There No Help for the Widow's Son?" by Dr. Reed C. Durham, Jr., as printed in "Joseph Smith and Masonry: No Help for the Widow's Son", Martin Pub. Co., Nauvoo, Ill., 1980, p. 17.) (This freed Joseph from having to complete the ritual and memorization necessary to work one's way through the first three degrees.) Making one "A Mason on Sight" is generally reserved as an honor and is a rarity in occurrence.

In 1842 Smith became a Master Mason, as indicated by in the History of the Church:

Tuesday, [March] 15. — I officiated as grand chaplain at the installation of the Nauvoo Lodge of Free Masons, at the Grove near the Temple. Grand Master Jonas, of Columbus, being present, a large number of people assembled on the occasion. The day was exceedingly fine; all things were done in order, and universal satisfaction was manifested. In the evening I received the first degree in Freemasonry in the Nauvoo Lodge, assembled in my general business office. (History of the Church, by Joseph Smith, Deseret Book, 1978, Vol.4, Ch.32, p.550-1)

Joseph Smith was raised to the third degree of master mason "on sight" by Grand Master Jonas of the Grand Lodge of Illinois. This was fully within Jonas' right of office, but was a fairly rare procedure.[1]


Oh wait let me guess, they were speculative/operative/irregular Masons



posted on Jun, 26 2012 @ 11:12 PM
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reply to post by FriedBabelBroccoli
 


Nice, broccoli. A star for you! I actually learned quite a bit from the links you provided! A find it extremely ironic, given the title of this thread, that you are being chastized so much for providing links to masonic websites. It is very curious indeed to find aprons with the pyramid and eye, just as George Washington once wore. I also am extremely fascinated by Mormonism and how it uses like every sign and symbol and even hand shakes as masonry. Very curious indeed!



posted on Jun, 26 2012 @ 11:16 PM
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reply to post by FriedBabelBroccoli
 

Actually according to the by-laws of the GL of Illinois, Smith et al would be considered Regular at least until the GM pulled their Charter (dispensation to work and form a Lodge). Incidently, some Orders (considered irregular by Anglo American Masonry), don't recognize the right of a GM to make a Mason "on sight" would have considered them "irregular" Masons.



posted on Jun, 26 2012 @ 11:19 PM
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reply to post by no1smootha
 


Which orders are you referring to, if you don't mind me asking? The ones that Anglo freemasonry considers irregular.
edit on 26-6-2012 by GardenParty because: typo



posted on Jun, 27 2012 @ 12:54 AM
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reply to post by GardenParty
 


None of the Continental Lodges that I am aware of accept the right of a GM to make a Mason "on sight" as a Landmark.



posted on Jun, 27 2012 @ 02:08 AM
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reply to post by FriedBabelBroccoli
 

Sorry, I've been away worshipping Satan...wait...I mean Christ...damn it guys! I guess I ruined it for everyone.


The All Seeing Eye is not on every apron, but when we do use it signifies the Deity.

For the rest of your rabble, hahahaha, not even close.


Nothing special about them really other than they are legends in their own minds.

Except your kind seem to be more obsessed with us than you claim we are with ourselves.

reply to post by FriedBabelBroccoli
 

Me thinks you should read the Bible again or rather not assume so much off of so little information.

reply to post by FriedBabelBroccoli
 

I am so glad to be lectured on what Freemasonry is by a non-member.



posted on Jun, 27 2012 @ 05:53 AM
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reply to post by FriedBabelBroccoli
 


nobody is mad that you are trying to learn that which you think you already know. We just wish you would concentrate on this one key element first. We have been down this road before quite a few times. I will try once more. Operative and Speculative. Operative masons came first. They built stuff out of rocks. Nice stuff. They had ways of using "magic" to make square rocks. (Geometry=magic) They decided to keep the way they did it secret to keep their services in demand. When a new guy wanted to come in, he had to prove his worth and if somebody snitched, they likely would have killed him. As people got smarter the operative masons started to have meetings. They formed groups. They started to talk about more stuff than just rocks. Then some rich dudes saw that they were having these meetings and they felt left out. (kind of like you do now) So they decided to stop whining and do something about it. They formed a group modeled after these operative masons and came up with some rules and things. They talked about God and how annoying those "Christians" who try to kill anyone who doesn't think like they do were. (look up history, crusades, you know, old Christian stuff)

Today, we have what has developed into speculative freemasonry. There are in fact men who are Speculative masons who happen to work with rocks, but not very many in the big scheme of things.

I hope you can take this tiny bit of information and use it to form a clear and concise idea if the difference between the two. Remember, we are here to help you because we like you.
edit on 27-6-2012 by network dude because: bad spelr



posted on Jun, 27 2012 @ 08:18 PM
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reply to post by network dude
 


Speculative masons do not work with bricks and mortar, I got that, they work with rituals.

Rituals require the use of symbols. If there is no magic geometry and instead the use of symbols that would equate it with magical practices (like thelema)

I am merely explaining the historical origins and uses of these symbols and as Masons claim such a long history, at least 6000 years on their calendar one would be foolish to ignore the uses of such symbols dating back equally as long.

Said symbolism takes one back to babylon, greece, and rome among others. All heavily influenced by the mystery schools of the time.

Your operative masons were guarding the secrets of roman architecture through the dark ages.

A History Of Freemasonry
www.mastermason.com...



As the Romans spread out over the continents, they brought with them a full complement of craftsmen and artificers, among them the "Brotherhood of Masons." They had their own constitutions in both their religious and secular matters, and their organization was a close facsimile of a modern Masonic Lodge. They bound themselves together for various reasons -- for mutual aid and assistance in times of sickness and trouble; for the proper training of apprentices; to set and maintain a very high standard of craftsmanship, and to prevent unscrupulous people from entering the trade or craft. These Roman masons travelled in "colleges" or "lodges". There were many kinds of Masons. Regular Masons were local men, who during the Roman occupation, were regarded as bondsmen and were compelled by law to live and work in the same community year in and year out under local restrictions. Freemasons were of the Roman Collegiates, who were free to travel about the country at will.


Augustus the Roman, interesting you chose a figure from Rome, a nation dedicated to Saturnia (Saturn)

KSigMason, you are boring me, really. Your tactics and methods remind me of highschool . . . which must be why you pursued political science.

You are going to get carpel tunnel repeatedly typing the same response over and over, can't you at least demonstrate some sort of creativity?

There is an AFM lodge down the street form my place and I have been afforded several discussions with members over drinks in which lips got loose. I would normally take drunk mason's words with a grain of salt (lol) but you just pay more attention when they are hitting on you.
edit on 27-6-2012 by FriedBabelBroccoli because:




posted on Jun, 27 2012 @ 08:27 PM
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reply to post by FriedBabelBroccoli
 


Haha what makes you think he's typing? Most of the time its just copy/pasted from

here

If you familiarize yourself with this you'll see the points crop up time and again


Your deduction of symbolism and babylon is highly apt, btw.



posted on Jun, 28 2012 @ 04:02 AM
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reply to post by FriedBabelBroccoli
 

Speculative = philosophical.

Rituals don't require symbols. Rituals can be daily routines, a method of procedure regularly followed, or an act or series of acts regularly repeated in a set precise manner. Symbols have no fixed interpretation or exclusivity to any single culture or organization, but rely upon the knowledge of the viewer for their definition and meaning.

I bore you? Because I use logic and reason? As for your little quote, I find that story quite interesting as I'm researching the Comacine Builders and the Roman Collegia in Britain and how it ties with the legend of King Athelstan in regards to the Regius Manuscript.


You are going to get carpel tunnel repeatedly typing the same response over and over, can't you at least demonstrate some sort of creativity?

The truth doesn't change just because you refuse to believe it.

reply to post by GardenParty
 

That is a good website, but I don't pull everything from there. I did learn a lot from them or at least use their citations in their articles to further my own research.



posted on Jun, 28 2012 @ 05:50 AM
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Originally posted by FriedBabelBroccoli
Augustus the Roman, interesting you chose a figure from Rome, a nation dedicated to Saturnia (Saturn).


I opted for that because of my Italian ancestry. Additonally, Saturn was not the Roman's most important God, Jupiter was. Specifically, Jupiter Optimus Maximus (best and greatest) or Jupiter Capitolinus (Jupiter of the Capitoline Hill). Jupiter usurped Saturn prior to Rome's founding (according to their myths) and was hence forth subordinate to Jupiter.



posted on Jun, 28 2012 @ 09:26 AM
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Originally posted by AugustusMasonicus

Originally posted by FriedBabelBroccoli
Augustus the Roman, interesting you chose a figure from Rome, a nation dedicated to Saturnia (Saturn).


I opted for that because of my Italian ancestry. Additonally, Saturn was not the Roman's most important God, Jupiter was. Specifically, Jupiter Optimus Maximus (best and greatest) or Jupiter Capitolinus (Jupiter of the Capitoline Hill). Jupiter usurped Saturn prior to Rome's founding (according to their myths) and was hence forth subordinate to Jupiter.


You are wrong about Jupiter being the principle deity of the Romans, their patron was Cronus/Saturn.

Jupiter was however his son.

Saturn (mythology)
en.wikipedia.org...


In mythology
Relief held by the Louvre thought to depict the veiled throne of Saturn, either a Roman work of the 1st century AD or a Renaissance copy

In Roman mythology,[22] Saturn was the original and autochthonous ruler of the Capitolium, which had thus been called the Mons Saturnius in older times. He was sometimes regarded as the first king of Latium or even the whole of Italy.[23] At the same time, there was a tradition that Saturn had been an immigrant god, received by Janus after he was usurped by his son Jupiter and expelled from Greece.[24] His contradictions—a foreigner with one of Rome's oldest sanctuaries, and a god of liberation who is kept in fetters most of the year—indicate Saturn's capacity for obliterating social distinctions.[25]

Roman mythology of the Golden Age of Saturn's reign differed from the Greek tradition. He arrived in Italy "dethroned and fugitive,"[26] but brought agriculture and civilization and became a king. As the Augustan poet Vergil described it, "He gathered together the unruly race" of fauns and nymphs "scattered over mountain heights, and gave them laws … . Under his reign were the golden ages men tell of: in such perfect peace he ruled the nations."[27]

But Saturn also had a less benevolent aspect, as indicated by the blood shed in his honor during gladiatorial munera. His consort in archaic Roman tradition was Lua, sometimes called Lua Saturni ("Saturn's Lua") and identified with Lua Mater, "Mother Destruction," a goddess in whose honor the weapons of enemies killed in war were burned, perhaps as expiation.[28] H.S. Versnel, however, proposed that Lua Saturni should not be identified with Lua Mater, but rather refers to "loosening"; she thus represents the liberating function of Saturn.[29]


Another interesting tie to Saturn from Zeus is his being raised by a goat, other myths put Dionysus along side him, yet another goat often associated with alcohol (clearly a popular thing among you masons).

Further connections to Saturn with Zeus is Pandora's box, or cube rather, which unleashed all horrors upon mankind.

On a side note his seduction of Europa with a bull is similar to the Pleidians of today who come from a part of that bull constellation which so seduced Europa.

Pleidians
www.pleiadians.net...



posted on Jun, 28 2012 @ 09:44 AM
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reply to post by FriedBabelBroccoli
 


It would be great to KNOW that our order can be traced that far back, but unfortunately, nobody has been able to find the supporting documentation. There are a great many mysteries in ancient Egypt that would be wonderful to learn, but it seems they are lost in time. Much like the lost word of a master mason.

It's somewhere waiting to be discovered again.



posted on Jun, 28 2012 @ 10:35 AM
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reply to post by FriedBabelBroccoli
 



Another interesting tie to Saturn from Zeus is his being raised by a goat, other myths put Dionysus along side him, yet another goat often associated with alcohol (clearly a popular thing among you masons).



Actually, in my state of Florida alcohol is not allowed anywhere on the premises of a Lodge even if Lodge is not in session, or even if we rent the Lodge out for a function like a wedding. Some Lodges have even had headaches from the Grand Lodge because they existed as a suite in a building where another suite/business was selling alcohol.

So, although I happen to enjoy a beer when I can, it certainly is not a "clearly popular thing among Masons."

Other states actually have beer at the Lodge, but not Florida!



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