Why do masons get angry at people researching their beliefs?

Wiccans are always nice people and I have attended a ritual or two as a quest. I have nothing bad to say about them so far. Their into the forces of nature and male/female polarity, biology, the moon and the stars. It tends to attract more woman Witch (pun) kind of makes sense.

For those of you who have nasty things to say about others beliefs I ask you to be honest and examine if you are putting out negativity or are you trying to understand and share light?

I have on my lap a 63 year old copy of (the hated and loved) Albert Pikes "Morals and Dogma" The ESOTERIC version never to been seen by outsiders. I bought in on ebay LOL. A copy of which belongs on any sincere seekers bookshelf, it's good reference material. For the record I am not a Mason but I do belong to a western mysterie school and we meet in a masonic lodge; many members are Masons and people who would give you the shirt off their back. How many people do you know that when your house burnt down would spend hours and hours, week after week to help rebuild it and would do so for the little old lady on the corner that they don't even know. These people are givers, they help people. Make of that what you will but i know what I make of it.

Anyway perusing through and following links from the "digest" like a large quide to the topics in the book There are only two references to Lucifer and only one that seems relevant.

Quote, Morals and Dogma page 321:

Lucifer, the light bearer! Strange and mysterious name to give to the spirit of darkness! Lucifer, the son of the Morning! It is he who bears the light, and with it's splendors intolerable blinds feeble, sensual, or selfish Souls? Doubt it not! for traditions are full of divine revelations and inspirations.

Make of that what you will but the rest of this book is all about God and being a descent person. Subjects like kabala, the bible, hermeticism etc... I shouldn't say standard occult fare because it's really quite good if antiquated.

It should be noted that most western occultists understand that God is Both The Light AND the Darkness and don't even really believe in any sort of anti-god and that would also be polytheistic, God created all. All is part of Gods creation. Thats the viewpoint and I think that helps explain quite a lot. Many are scared #less to deviate from their parents religions but for many their is little meaning until one searches and quests for God for Him/Herself.

So no, they don't worhip the devil.

They worship God but understand God has POLARITY.

I hope this helps clear things up a bit.

I have a guote I will not reference lol.

"Those afraid of the airs and things that go bump in the night HATH NO PLACE IN GOD!"

Best Wishes,

Frater

reply to post by FortAnthem


So as long as you justaccept everything a Mason says it'll be ok? Make it sound like any disagreement and you instantly get written off. I have nothing against regular Masons they are some of the nicest people anywhere, but I do think there is a heirarchy of Masons that use their assets for evil purposes. Masons will give anything for a fellow Mason what better way to collect assets than that, like I said heirarchy of Masons abuse of power and assets, maybe.

Originally posted by network dude

Originally posted by Fr3bzY
Save a baby...eat a mason

If I wasn't so attached to my signature, I would ask permission to adopt this as a new one.
You should make bumper stickers my friend.

If it involves a cute redhead, I'm in!

Originally posted by Headband7
reply to post by FortAnthem

 

So as long as you justaccept everything a Mason says it'll be ok? Make it sound like any disagreement and you instantly get written off.

Not at all. But if you're going to disagree about some point, bring something factual and/or verifiable not regurgitation of previously-debunked assertions that a simple search would reveal or third-hand tales from axe-grinders.

I promise not to waste your time if you promise not to waste mine. Sound reasonable?

Fitz

Originally posted by Fitzgibbon

Originally posted by network dude

Originally posted by Fr3bzY
Save a baby...eat a mason

If I wasn't so attached to my signature, I would ask permission to adopt this as a new one.
You should make bumper stickers my friend.

If it involves a cute redhead, I'm in!

LOL!

Originally posted by Phenomium
Because they say they believe in Jesus, but then try to WORK their way to heaven, just like in the days of Babylon. Ephesians 2:9 says "For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God".

Revelation 2:19: “I know thy works, and charity, and service, and faith, and thy patience, and thy works; and the last to be more than the first.”

Revelation 20:12: “And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works.”

Considering that they do many things that counter GODS word, they are either of GOD or their father the Devil. The devil likes to do his works in the dark, this is why they don't like to be researched.

Matthew 6:6: “But thou, when thou prayest, enter into thy closet, and when thou hast shut thy door, pray to thy Father which is in secret; and thy Father which seeth in secret shall reward thee openly.”

reply to post by Frater


And that is the biggest and best lesson I have learned thus far in Freemasonry. Tolerance and understanding. IN Understanding another religion or idea, I have not Blasphemed or caved in to the will of evil, I simply asked and searched for answers and found our things I didn't know about something. Growing up, I had family influences stating that Masonry and Rosicrucians were a cult and not to be trusted. Now that I can find out these things for myself, I see that a Catholic influence made it easy for those family members to simply put all that didn't fit in the Catholic box into a "cult" box. I have learned that even Satanists don't worship the devil. Well, not all types. Some members of this very site are of that group and when asked to explain their views, I learned a lot about what they believed.

Some Christian religions are so closed minded that they are not willing to accept that any other religious group may gain admission to heaven. Just think of the irony of a human thinking they know how things work in Heaven. It's the epitome of ego.

Leaning is fundamental.

Originally posted by JoshNorton

Originally posted by Frater210

JoshNorton:

There's never actually been a supernatural entity with that name. But if you went with the misconception that there was an entity called Lucifer which may or may not be equivalent with Satan, either way, they'd still be subservient to God, and thus not worthy of worship.

Do you think that this was lost on Albert Pike, considering the quote from M+D?

No, Pike knew that there was no Lucifer as well. He was an educated man and knew that it was, for all intents and purposes, a typo in one translation of the Bible that became escalated and distorted by Dante's Inferno and Milton's Paradise Lost. In fact, in Morals & Dogma he writes:

thence came the he-goat of the Sabbat, brother of the Ancient Serpent, and the Light-bearer or Phosphor, of which the poets have made the false Lucifer of the legend.

Morals & Dogma, page 102

He explicitly says "false Lucifer". He knew it was a bad translation. He also acknowledges the poets' (Dante's and Milton's) role in proliferating that legend.

Hi, now you confuse me. Milton wrote a novel - Paradise Lost. I can't recall seeing anything where he said it was based on fact. How did he proliferate a legend? It's a story, no more, no less.

I'm now starting to get a little confused. You talk about Satan as though such a being exists, but you refute that said being has also been named Lucifer. At the same time it's stated that Masonry is open to people of all faiths, some faiths wouldn't acknowledge a being called Satan - surely you can't have it both ways?

Originally posted by muzzleflash
Don't ask them about Lucifer the Morning Star than.

Some of them have claimed it is not Satan or the Devil, although in modern English lexicon it is commonly referred to as the Devil or Satan. Also terminology like Luciferian is equated with Satanism in common lexicon.

However, I have heard many argue this point, and attempt to paint this "Lucifer" as the Illumination and the Light.

That's probably where all of the major problems come from.

However, there are millions of masons in various sects with possibly different interpretations of their occult practices or different points of view about this whole "Lucifer" terminology that is so highly controversial.

**Disclaimer : When I say masons told me, it was self -avowed masons members on ATS, however they were pretty well respected members so I assume they must have been masons and not fakes.

I have no access to their Libraries or their rituals to examine and observe their peculiarities so I do not know if this hearsay is true or not. However I highly suggest you investigate if you really want to know.

Some of them seem to be claiming to be Luciferians. I am inclined to believe there are grains of truth to this. I have seen many facets of this subject and it is very provocative and very very deep.

I am not a freemason, My beliefs while it may differ from theirs, I did find God in a way through lucifer.
and there are reasons for this. Take a look at the yin yang, study it's knowledge. All is one, one is all. 50/50 balance. light and dark becoming one to achieve peace and harmony and love for all.

Think very deeply why the world is the way it is, because people judge. By judging others you are limiting free will and free will is the number 1 law in the universe.

Last time I checked btw, Masons do not allow anyone to enter unless they have a belief in a higher being. So they accept people with any beliefs. Just because one of them believes in lucifer, that doesn't mean all of them do. I know free masons who are happy Christians.

As to Op's question, I asked my friend who is a freemason the same quetions awhile back. The answer is, no they don't care what knowledge you posses from them. They do however, care about not being witch hunted through false accusations

reply to post by something wicked


The modern story of Satan as a fallen angel is from a story. It was adopted and expounded upon by modern Christianity.

Whether or not Satan is real is irrelavent to Masonry. If someone wants to identify themself as a Satanist, and also join Freemasonry, it would be possible. The same standards of morality would apply, so if they are a Satanist that sacrifices babies, then they won't be allowed in, but if they are the typical satanist that believes in the power of mankind and mother Earth, then they would probably be allowed in.

Masonry does not discriminate on religion. For all intents and purposes, one could worship a god by any name, regardless of the source of that name, whether it be fiction, myth, lore, or religious text. As long as they can truthfully answer affirmatively when asked if they believe in one, ever-living creator/god/deity, then they qualify for Masonry.

Personally, I don't know the origins of the story of Satan, but in my years on ATS I have learned a great deal, and there are 2 or 3 versions that I find extremely interesting. It seems some believe names were intentionally transposed and Satan is the true messiah. Others believe Satan is exactly what Christians believe, he is a fallen angel that should be considered a hero for standing up to a tyrannical god, and Satan is the true deliverer of mankind, and an ally of those who fight for freedom and individuality. I suppose there are also those that think Satan is an evil entity intent on destruction and chaos, and yet they still embrace him. I happen to know three of those guys serving a life sentence for murdering their friend while worshipping an evil Satan.

In any case, it is all completely irrelavent to Masonry. We are looking for upright, moral and honest men, that seek to better themselves by involvement in our organization, and also better our organization by their involvement. We are not interested in their religion, so long as they have one, and it provides a good moral basis for their actions.

ETA:
Just for Giggles, here is an old Protoplasmic Traveller link to: The Church of the Invisible Pink Unicorn. Don't laugh until you read it! It sounds as plausible as anything else I suppose!

Originally posted by something wicked
I'm now starting to get a little confused. You talk about Satan as though such a being exists, but you refute that said being has also been named Lucifer. At the same time it's stated that Masonry is open to people of all faiths, some faiths wouldn't acknowledge a being called Satan - surely you can't have it both ways?

Augustus Masonicus has repeatedly pointed out the Genesis of the confusion re. Lucifer/Satan. The search feature on ATS is your friend.

As for your second line, we do. If I read you correctly you're still buying into the 'Masons worship the Devil'-stream. If I'm correct, then that's been repeatedly debunked too for pretty much the reason you cite. In the case of my Lodge, our Master is Sikh. How's he supposed to worship the Devil if his faith doesn't have the Devil as a character?

When the GAOTU is mentioned, Masons each acknowledge and direct their own individual prayers to their understanding of GAOTU. GAOTU is the Supreme Creator of all that was, is, and will be. This is another reason that the 'Masons worship the Devil'-stream is a non-starter since the Devil is a creation of the Creator, ergo not supreme.

HTH
Fitz

Originally posted by getreadyalready
If someone wants to identify themself as a Satanist, and also join Freemasonry, it would be possible.

I completely disagree. The historical Satan was created by God and therefore can not be a Supreme Being as it is always subservient to God.

Someone could believe that Satan created the Universe but then Satan would not be the historical Satan but instead would be God.

Originally posted by something wicked
Hi, now you confuse me. Milton wrote a novel - Paradise Lost. I can't recall seeing anything where he said it was based on fact. How did he proliferate a legend? It's a story, no more, no less.

I know that. And you know that. But you'd be surprised how many Christians take the story told in Paradise Lost and believe that it's part of the Bible.

In Book 7 of Paradise Lost, Milton writes

Know then, that after Lucifer from Heav'n
(So call him, brighter once amidst the Host
Of Angels, then that Starr the Starrs among)
Fell with his flaming Legions through the Deep

And if you ask many Christians today, they'll tell you that Lucifer was Satan's angelic name. But that's nowhere to be found in the Bible. It only exists in the fictions written long after.

reply to post by ManOfGod267


I don't know about Masons getting angry, but they do get weirded out when people ask questions. Even in this thread, people have said things like "Want to learn more about them? Then Join". But that just makes me want to point out that I don't know if I want to join them when I don't know anything about them. And the people I've known who have been Masons have been really secretive. They act like Masons are able to know about privileged information and so they can't talk about anything involving the Masons. One of them even told me that if you join, you are made to swear an oath that you can never tell any of their information or you will be killed. Of course, this guy was always wierd so I have to consider the source. I'm not saying Masons are bad, but I'm just saying they're secretive, and in my experience, people don't keep secrets unless they have something to hide. I would love to be able to say differently but there isn't much trustworthy information out there.

Originally posted by AugustusMasonicus

Originally posted by getreadyalready
If someone wants to identify themself as a Satanist, and also join Freemasonry, it would be possible.

I completely disagree. The historical Satan was created by God and therefore can not be a Supreme Being as it is always subservient to God.

Someone could believe that Satan created the Universe but then Satan would not be the historical Satan but instead would be God.

Agreed.

It always boils down to whether or not they can affirmatively answer the question about whether or not they believe in one ever-living supreme being.

By the same logic as yours, Jesus is also not the Supreme Being, and those that worship Jesus would not be allowed in Masonry.

In both cases, Christianity and Satanism, they still acknowledge an all-powerful Creator, but they choose to worship a lesser incarnation of that creator.

That happens to be one of my main problems with identifying myself as a Christian. I love the teachings of Christ, but I refuse to worship him, and I choose to worship an unnamed and unpersonified deity that pervades all religions, all of mankind, and all of nature. I believe that deity has sent many messengers in many incarnations, but they are all part of the same governing spirituality. I believe that deity has spoken to me on many occasions, and we have a very direct and personal relationship, and I do not need a middle man to communicate on my behalf. I accept all of the Holy Books equally.

Originally posted by AM47240
I'm not saying Masons are bad, but I'm just saying they're secretive, and in my experience, people don't keep secrets unless they have something to hide.

Yes, but from that implication, having something to hide is necessarily bad. And it really isn't.

I've never given my real name on ATS. I've hidden my true identity. Does that make what I write here any less valid? Does it mean that I'm evil, just because I want to protect my privacy?

Originally posted by AugustusMasonicus

Originally posted by getreadyalready
If someone wants to identify themself as a Satanist, and also join Freemasonry, it would be possible.

I completely disagree. The historical Satan was created by God and therefore can not be a Supreme Being as it is always subservient to God.

Someone could believe that Satan created the Universe but then Satan would not be the historical Satan but instead would be God.

To throw a monkey wrench into the works, Gnostics have an interesting take on this.

They believe that the being many call God is actually something called "The Demiurge" A messed up sort of third generation copy of the original Being. Some would call the Demiurge, the wrathfull God of the old testament or even a Demon LOL, like the God of this world is the Devil!

Just for converstaion lol

Best Wishes

Originally posted by getreadyalready

Originally posted by John_Rodger_Cornman

Originally posted by getreadyalready
reply to post by lestweforget

 

Actually, in my Shrine Temple, we display the Epic of Gilgamesh, the Holy Bible, and the Quran all opened simultaneously on the Altar. In my opinion, it is a sort of progression through time of the Holy Books. I don't know if all Shrine Temples display the same combination, but I always loved the Epic of Gilgamesh, and when I joined the Shrine, I was thrilled to see it honored on the Altar and not treated like some mythical fiction.

So you don't have any real exclusivity to single belief? Its seems like a club.

Are there any activities/actions that can ban you from membership?

It is a club...i.e. fraternity. It is not a religion, and there is no religious requirement other than believing in one creator. Yes, there are plenty of things that can get you excluded from membership. We conduct a criminal background check, we have a committee come to your home and interview you, and we let the membership vote, and acceptance must be unanimous. A single black ball will exclude you from membership. If someone has had bad business dealings with members, or if the committee finds something disturbing at the house during the interview, or if the background check is not clean, or if some member just happens to know and dislike you, then it is likely you will not get in.

A few things I have seen as disqualifications, one interview committee went to the house and the wife seemed a little shy, and turns out she had a black eye. On another occasion the guy was a tattoo artist, and we had one member that was dead set against admitting him.....the rest of us really liked the guy, and so the one member decided to skip a meeting and let us vote him in, within the first month of voting him in, he was arrested for drugs, and was immediately kicked back out. One guy lied about his background and it was discovered during the background check. Several folks have been honest about a felony in their past, and most are not accepted, although I have seen one or two exceptions made.

If you are a good, honest person with morals, and you believe in one, ever-living creator, then you will probably get in with no problems.

I like that. Give people a chance.

Seems pretty fair. I like that you give people a chance to fail instead of pigeon hold people to stereotypes.
You judge access on people(democratically and equally) with aspects that actually matter and make sense.
Most of the masons in this thread seem like normal conservative people.
Not the evil monsters you hear about often.
Do all members have equal voting power? Are there any tiers,seniority?
I am learning a lot from this thread from people that actually profess the doctrine. Want to know for sure go to source. We don't want to learn the "definitive facts" from a tsarion type right?

reply to post by Cobra.EXE

We're not a secret society as you very well know. Nor did we go "underground" in the 1700s. Absurd.

reply to post by Phenomium

We don't wish to "work our way into Heaven".

Ephesians 2:9 says "For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God".

Freemasonry doesn't contradict this at all.

Nor does Freemasonry contradict God's word nor is our "father the devil". Absurdities abound.

Freemasons don't work in the dark either, no matter their place in the structure of Freemasonry.

reply to post by Fr3bzY

Well, I hope you like whiskey flavored Mason then cause my liver is well saturated.

Originally posted by getreadyalready
By the same logic as yours, Jesus is also not the Supreme Being, and those that worship Jesus would not be allowed in Masonry.

In both cases, Christianity and Satanism, they still acknowledge an all-powerful Creator, but they choose to worship a lesser incarnation of that creator.

I disagre again. If you are a Christian then you believe in the transfiguration and the divinity of Christ. Christ is/was God along with the Holy Spirit. He was not a lesser God or version but was God incarnate which would still make him the Creator. In the light of full disclosure I do not believe in any of the above which is what stopped me from continuing as a Catholic.

That happens to be one of my main problems with identifying myself as a Christian. I love the teachings of Christ, but I refuse to worship him, and I choose to worship an unnamed and unpersonified deity that pervades all religions, all of mankind, and all of nature.

You and I are very similar then. Look up panentheism which may fit the description you are providing.