London riots spreading to Birmingham, Leeds

reply to post by Wo0kiEE


Morning Wookie.

I'm happy to say this morning that I was wrong. I expected last night to be much worse than monday. Happily it seems to be dropping away a bit.

I think perhaps I gave them too much credit for the ability to think analytically. To me, this whole situation represents potentially the scariest scenario we in this country can face; the complete and utter breakdown of societal norms. Law and order has such a thin hold on the feral instincts of certain sectors of the population and the only thing that keeps this veil in place is fear and consent; Fear of personal consequences and the consent of people that there are things we should and should not do.

When a small group removes the veil and exposes the fragility of "civilised society" for all others to see, I expected so many more to realise that Crowley's maxim of "Do what thou wilt" could actually be followed and join in. With the average person's lack of ability to defend oneself in this country, a complete and utter societal collapse wouldn't be far behind.

Let's hope tonight is even quieter, but it is time to start addressing some of the real reasons behind these troubles as discussed in that article.

Originally posted by torqpoc
Yes I was actually using the fact that Britain is no longer referred to as Great Britain because it isn't "great" anymore. It isn't. Great Britain used as a term to define a sporting team is not the same as being used to define a country. As for sporting teams, I can only laugh at Great Britain's sporting accomplishments in the last 10 years. I personally think the shift in the use of Britain versus Great Britain is a significant one, hence the point I was making. You didn't like it, it would seem, however I don't resort to saying you are ignorant and stupid do I?

Again, you don;t seem to understand what is actually an extraordinarily simple point. The country is, was and forever shall be (referendums permitting) The United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland. The Great never was, is or ever shall be used to refer to any perceived notion of Greatness but rather the simple fact it is the largest of the many islands in the British Isles.. On this point is where I am pointing out your ignorance, The fact your taking being called ignorant personally shows you also don't understand what this word means either.

Originally posted by torqpoc
As for your rendition of the social issues in the UK, you're not quite seeing the big picture in my honest opinion and only blaming the effect and not the cause. Why do you think education and unemployment are so high? From your own words it would seem you blame the parents, but unless I’m mistaken, their parents came before them, and their own parents too. So if we go back a generation, or two, we can see a completely different social system and less “yobbishness”, which would imply that either people devolved, or the state did. With just a simple overview of the history of the UK in the last 50 years you can quite easily see the cause, and subsequently the effect.

The reasons the country is in the state it is in is quite simple: A poorly organised social system which breeds plebeians. If the welfare state were more rigid, people who be forced to seek employment or education. If the education system were geared towards actually educating people, they wouldn't need to be on welfare. It isn't a chicken and egg situation here, it IS the governments fault the country is in the state it is in. Naivety is one thing, but your views on why we are in the situation we are in today would seem to imply it's up to the individuals who have very little power and say and cannot even attempt to control their fates other than being slaves to their emotions.

That may be part of the issue, but nothing stopped these kids actually trying to achieve something other than being a rapper or Pop star, which is all they seem to want to do these days. They have a desire, or even a need, to own the latest stuff and expect it all to land in their laps with little or no work. They have no concept of society, or the correct behaviour expected of them and this is solely down to their parents, who have failed miserably.

It's all very well to blame the state, and it may be true that the benefits system enabled this to an extent, but it is really their own fault they have failed to achieve. The fact people are blaming the Government for their own failures shows how little personal responsibility and an attitude of entitlement exists in some sections of modern society.

And don't forget it is this Government that is trying to make the benefits system much simpler and to also weed out those cheats, who seem to be endemic as a result of social policies enacted by the previous Government.

The system we have in place at the moment is a result of 13 years of Left Wing social engineering, lets put blame where it lies shall we? But then, these idiots can't even name the PM so what hope have they got of correctly identifying their issues and resolving them?

Originally posted by torqpoc
Yes I am fully aware of Scotland and England's history. You are not going back quite far enough, you would actually have to start at Roman times to get a full picture, but that's probably another topic for another thread.

Indeed, but you brought up the Union, which began in 1707 as a direct response to a specific chain of events, which I described. If you wish to go back further, feel free. I am well versed in this topic as I actually take an interest in our countries history.

Originally posted by torqpoc
I think this is going to be my last response to you Sir. I don't quite like your tone or posting mannerisms, i'm also quite ashamed you are a part of the Order. So please do feel free to respond in an even more aggressive manner, i'm sure it will make your ego feel so much better, right?

And I cannot stand blatantly false statements for the sake of a cheap shot, which yours was. If you don't like being called out on something, then check your facts. I really couldn't care less if you don't like my tone, yet it is hardly "aggressive". Calling someone an idiot for deliberately posting false and misleading information is hardly aggressive, but if you found it so then I apologise. I'd describe it as "blunt". My point still stands though.

reply to post by torqpoc


First of all can I just say how much I enjoy your posts and whilst I certainly don't agree with you all the time I respect your well thought out, well presented and dignified musings.

Dear Freeborn,
Actually there were reports in the MSN about the broom cleaning teams, groups of people protecting their areas, homesteads, temples and such. Sadly the MSM seemed to slant towards the work done by Asian groups, I am sure there is some reasoning behind that.

Yeah, I saw that - I found it quite disconcerting watching Boris stride around with a brush in the air with that smug, arrogant smile of his beaming at all and sundry.
Talk about trying to capitalise on other's mis-fortune.

But fair play to all those who got off their arse's and tried to do something positive.

And fair play to those Sikh's who were determined to defend their place of worship.

But unfortunately MSM seriously played down the groups of up to 400 mainly white people who were protecting their own respective communities in London and parts of The Midlands.
I know a few groups of looters were well and truly put in their place by these older 'mobs'.

As to your comments about "outcasts of Europe", that was from one of my posts so I’ll take the opportunity to respond. Your comments are part and parcel of why the UK is in the state it is in today. You praise "bands of people coming together" but limit this to the country. It is the slightly ingrained xenophobic Brit which dislikes Europe that creates some of the cultural and social problems that exist today.

Possibly.
But the point is we want nothing to do with this EU Superstate and it's dictatorial legislation and the inherent corruption within it.
it has been forced upon us and we will resist anything that is forced upon us.
Give us a vote on it, if the majority are for continued membership then so be it....but until then we will fight it tooth and nail.

Ingrained xenophobia is a direct result of being an island nation and having to stand alone for centuries against all-comers.
That is part of what enabled us to withstand our enemies.
To do away with that is to take the Brit out of Britain!

Do you truly believe the French and Germans wanted to be part of the European Union too?

Yes, as long as they can control it and everybody does as they say.
Now that they are losing control and things aren't all going their way they are beginning to turn on it.

I'm talking about the people not the government here. I can honestly and safely tell you that no, they did not. The main difference is though that their governments' belief in the system carried enough weight to unite the people. Here in the UK the government shunned the idea from the outset, further instilling this derogatory view the average Brit has of Europe.

The majority of people in this country have nearly always voted against the government of the day hence there is an inherent mistrust of everything they do or say.

You love to visit it, you love to eat it's food, you love to even move there, yet you shun it because you're "British" and too good for it. It's a nationalistic arrogance which makes the rest of the European Union view Britain as an offshoot, a red-headed stepchild that no one truly wants to deal with. If you're happy with that perception, great! Personally I don't think it's a good one.

I've been all over Europe - seen lots of the tourist spots - and even more of the not so tourist spots.
I have varying opinions of continental Europe, it's people, it's cuisine's etc.
The majority are not complimentary.
However, I do try to take people as I find them and will not judge an individual on a generalisation, unfortunately many do.
And people's perception of Britain is frequently based on arrogance, ignorance and even at times jealousy.

It's my experience that people are people the world over, unfortunately it all seems to go tits up when we start grouping together along national, political, religious etc lines.

Sure the European Union isn't exactly the best thing since sliced bread,

On that we agree.

nor is it economically stable it would seem, but it's a bigger entity than just being a Brit, or a Frenchie, or whatever.

No, it's not bigger.
It's a manufactured entity whch few of us have any deep held allegiance to or for.
If it had occurred naturally as a result of the will of the people then it could be a truly great and wonderful thing, but it didn't so it isn't.

People need to start stepping outside their boxes

To truly step, or think, outside the box one must first recognise that there is no box.

and starting to see the world with a wider point of view and not continuing or promoting this sense of derision from generation to generation.

I certainly can't fault or disagree with the sentiment, unfortunately I am a realist...maybe I do need to find my lost sense of idealism?

reply to post by stumason


Dear Stumason,
I take the use of written language at a literal level. I fully understand the use of the word ignorant and idiot, and in the context you were using them it was not appreciated. My comments about Great Britain and the lack of the use of "great" was, if you wish to call it, a cheap shot. It was referring to past glories, empires and power on the global scene. It was purely an observation, a true observation at that, and I was pointing out how ironic it was that Great Britain is no longer "great". I was not commenting on the true name of this group of islands, yet you seem to be focusing on that. You also seem to take my observation as an affront to this correlation and missing the point, which can only lead me to think you are extremely nationalistic and proud of your heritage, so be it that is nothing to be ashamed of.

With regards the wrongs and rights in today's society, you are going back to cause and effect reasoning once again, and still focusing on the effect. I totally agree with you as to why children today, and even the latest parenting generation, are the way they are, but where you are missing the point, for me anyway, is that they are in this situation because of external influences. These influences can be grouped into the term “modern society”, with its overhyped American-esque culture and glamourisation of footballers, rappers and the rest. The average Joe is not an editor of a newspaper, or a TV producer. They are simply, absorbing what the governments, press and TV are spouting at them day in and day out. You are correct in that they could, and should, wish to better themselves. That was the case 50 years ago, now with the perceived easy road to life, it becomes harder for those same people to trust in their own ability to rise above the chaff. The sad truth is that there is more chaff than good honest, moral and value driven people in today's society. It is not the individual at fault, it is the mass driven by the herders. I stand by my thoughts and feel that it is the responsibility of the leaders to ensure the “sheep” are bettering their lives, the fact is the leaders do not want us to better our lives. So we are straight back to cause and effect.

I personally do care how people perceive me and my postings, even if it is here on ATS. I appreciate the apology, I don't think one was entirely necessary but the gesture is well received. Ultimately we are all, or I’d hope we are all here for intellectual debate, personally I’d like that to be as polite as possible without a hint of aggression sneaking in.

T

Originally posted by Freeborn
reply to post by torqpoc

 

First of all can I just say how much I enjoy your posts and whilst I certainly don't agree with you all the time I respect your well thought out, well presented and dignified musings.

Dear Freeborn,
Actually there were reports in the MSN about the broom cleaning teams, groups of people protecting their areas, homesteads, temples and such. Sadly the MSM seemed to slant towards the work done by Asian groups, I am sure there is some reasoning behind that.

Yeah, I saw that - I found it quite disconcerting watching Boris stride around with a brush in the air with that smug, arrogant smile of his beaming at all and sundry.
Talk about trying to capitalise on other's mis-fortune.

But fair play to all those who got off their arse's and tried to do something positive.

And fair play to those Sikh's who were determined to defend their place of worship.

But unfortunately MSM seriously played down the groups of up to 400 mainly white people who were protecting their own respective communities in London and parts of The Midlands.
I know a few groups of looters were well and truly put in their place by these older 'mobs'.

As to your comments about "outcasts of Europe", that was from one of my posts so I’ll take the opportunity to respond. Your comments are part and parcel of why the UK is in the state it is in today. You praise "bands of people coming together" but limit this to the country. It is the slightly ingrained xenophobic Brit which dislikes Europe that creates some of the cultural and social problems that exist today.

Possibly.
But the point is we want nothing to do with this EU Superstate and it's dictatorial legislation and the inherent corruption within it.
it has been forced upon us and we will resist anything that is forced upon us.
Give us a vote on it, if the majority are for continued membership then so be it....but until then we will fight it tooth and nail.

Ingrained xenophobia is a direct result of being an island nation and having to stand alone for centuries against all-comers.
That is part of what enabled us to withstand our enemies.
To do away with that is to take the Brit out of Britain!

Do you truly believe the French and Germans wanted to be part of the European Union too?

Yes, as long as they can control it and everybody does as they say.
Now that they are losing control and things aren't all going their way they are beginning to turn on it.

I'm talking about the people not the government here. I can honestly and safely tell you that no, they did not. The main difference is though that their governments' belief in the system carried enough weight to unite the people. Here in the UK the government shunned the idea from the outset, further instilling this derogatory view the average Brit has of Europe.

The majority of people in this country have nearly always voted against the government of the day hence there is an inherent mistrust of everything they do or say.

You love to visit it, you love to eat it's food, you love to even move there, yet you shun it because you're "British" and too good for it. It's a nationalistic arrogance which makes the rest of the European Union view Britain as an offshoot, a red-headed stepchild that no one truly wants to deal with. If you're happy with that perception, great! Personally I don't think it's a good one.

I've been all over Europe - seen lots of the tourist spots - and even more of the not so tourist spots.
I have varying opinions of continental Europe, it's people, it's cuisine's etc.
The majority are not complimentary.
However, I do try to take people as I find them and will not judge an individual on a generalisation, unfortunately many do.
And people's perception of Britain is frequently based on arrogance, ignorance and even at times jealousy.

It's my experience that people are people the world over, unfortunately it all seems to go tits up when we start grouping together along national, political, religious etc lines.

Sure the European Union isn't exactly the best thing since sliced bread,

On that we agree.

nor is it economically stable it would seem, but it's a bigger entity than just being a Brit, or a Frenchie, or whatever.

No, it's not bigger.
It's a manufactured entity whch few of us have any deep held allegiance to or for.
If it had occurred naturally as a result of the will of the people then it could be a truly great and wonderful thing, but it didn't so it isn't.

People need to start stepping outside their boxes

To truly step, or think, outside the box one must first recognise that there is no box.

and starting to see the world with a wider point of view and not continuing or promoting this sense of derision from generation to generation.

I certainly can't fault or disagree with the sentiment, unfortunately I am a realist...maybe I do need to find my lost sense of idealism?

And this is why I appreciate respect, you can disagree with someone and still be friendly!
Good show!

Originally posted by torqpoc
reply to post by stumason

 

Dear Stumason,
I take the use of written language at a literal level. I fully understand the use of the word ignorant and idiot, and in the context you were using them it was not appreciated. My comments about Great Britain and the lack of the use of "great" was, if you wish to call it, a cheap shot. It was referring to past glories, empires and power on the global scene. It was purely an observation, a true observation at that, and I was pointing out how ironic it was that Great Britain is no longer "great". I was not commenting on the true name of this group of islands, yet you seem to be focusing on that. You also seem to take my observation as an affront to this correlation and missing the point, which can only lead me to think you are extremely nationalistic and proud of your heritage, so be it that is nothing to be ashamed of.

With regards the wrongs and rights in today's society, you are going back to cause and effect reasoning once again, and still focusing on the effect. I totally agree with you as to why children today, and even the latest parenting generation, are the way they are, but where you are missing the point, for me anyway, is that they are in this situation because of external influences. These influences can be grouped into the term “modern society”, with its overhyped American-esque culture and glamourisation of footballers, rappers and the rest. The average Joe is not an editor of a newspaper, or a TV producer. They are simply, absorbing what the governments, press and TV are spouting at them day in and day out. You are correct in that they could, and should, wish to better themselves. That was the case 50 years ago, now with the perceived easy road to life, it becomes harder for those same people to trust in their own ability to rise above the chaff. The sad truth is that there is more chaff than good honest, moral and value driven people in today's society. It is not the individual at fault, it is the mass driven by the herders. I stand by my thoughts and feel that it is the responsibility of the leaders to ensure the “sheep” are bettering their lives, the fact is the leaders do not want us to better our lives. So we are straight back to cause and effect.

I personally do care how people perceive me and my postings, even if it is here on ATS. I appreciate the apology, I don't think one was entirely necessary but the gesture is well received. Ultimately we are all, or I’d hope we are all here for intellectual debate, personally I’d like that to be as polite as possible without a hint of aggression sneaking in.

T

And that is the best way to debate! Be respectful to one and another, without any aggression.
There's an ol dsaying that states : Violence begets Violence
And that is why we must be respectful to each other if we wish to have an intellectual debate.

reply to post by Freeborn


Dear Freeborn,
Thank you for the opening comments. It would be a sad world if we all agreed with each other, at least I think so.

I totally agree with your earlier postings above, your understanding of the root causes are, in my opinion, spot on as they say. I do however think we've both had a differing understanding of "Europe". There is on the one hand the union, which I have some feelings about. I am still not sure if the monetary based union was a good idea or not, current events would suggest it was not, but time will tell.

I was actually focusing on Europe in the sense of a oneness, if I can use that term. I come from a very varied background and multi-country heritage so the negative aspects of nationalism irk me. I don't agree with the inherent dislikes one people's countries have for another, and again you are totally right in that it is not just a Brit thing, everyone has this ingrained xenophobia to a certain extent.

As you state you are realistic, I’ll openly say I am idealistic. I believe in a utopic future for all of us, where the differences between nations are blurred rather than etched into our souls. I think from a global point of view the notion of Europe as an entity is a valid one. It counters the Eastern and Western influences, or at least it should. I believe in a European celebration of our differences under an umbrella of unity. Does that make sense? I’m not sure, but it’s extremely idealistic I must admit.

There is not much more that I can say, other than to thank you for your response.

T

reply to post by torqpoc


I think aside from the opening disagreement about our country and it's nomclature, we are largely in agreement about what it is that is at the root of the issue here.

I agree that the state has a role in trying to help these people out of what is a pretty dire state of affairs in some sections of our society, but that is not to say that the state is wholly responsible.

If you go back two generations to these kids grandparents, whom largely seem to be of Afro-crribean background, you will see a totally different work ethic and view on society.

At some point in the intervening time, these youths and their parents have lost their way and blamed society at large for their problems, which are primarily as a result of their own actions (or inactions - schooling and poor parenting for example).

Now, we can blame "modern society" or the creeping americanisation of society as a cause for the "have it all now" and rapper mentality we see so often, but surely if it was that much of a cause, why didn't we all fall into this trap? I am not that far removed from this generation and was a teenager in the late 90's and early 00's. I was even what you would call a "hoody" back then, although with a significantly bigger respect for the law and society and only engaged in minor troublemaking.

Yet, somehow and against quite significant odds, I clawed my way out of the gutter through hard work and now occupy what you would call a middle class life, hold down a professional job and support my partner and 3 kids. At one point, I was unemployed and even homeless, yet never felt like someone else "owed" me a living or that I was "entitled" to help. The situation was largely of my own making and I corrected it.

This seems a world apart from the attitude these "youths" are showing now, who expect everyone and anyone to solve their problems, except for themselves. They expect everything to be given to them with little or no work and feel hard done by when at 21, they have no job are are not a Hip Hop star with bitches and bling.

Now, on to a touchy point... Why is it that a large part of this dissaffected Youth seem to be young, black males? Even the guy that was shot that apparently started all this was a young black guy with a gun and the only photo his family could find to give to the media was of him posing with his hands in a "gun" shape.

A bit of good news for the North West:

The weather has taken a major turn for the worse! High winds and torrential rain at the moment. Always puts a dampener on riotous behavior in this country.

If I may say so?
I agree with both of you. On one hand the society is to blame due to shifting values and morals, however on the other hand the parents are to blame for raising their children with lower/ different values and morals. In my humble view it is a vicious circle in which one problem amplifies the other and you end up with the problem that we are having now with the youths.

The reason why there are such a high number of "blacks" , in Hollywood the black populace have been glorified as rappers with lots "bling" and "b*itches" and these youths have been brainwashed by MTV and Hollywood in to believing that this the only thing that they can do and succeed ( this is my opinion)

Originally posted by cheesyleps
A bit of good news for the North West:

The weather has taken a major turn for the worse! High winds and torrential rain at the moment. Always puts a dampener on riotous behavior in this country.

I hope so, i truly do

reply to post by KhaliWitch


One of the best deterrents ever, a bit of rain, on a lighter note I just got given a Signed Louis Saha Shirt. =0)

reply to post by Wo0kiEE


I have absolutely no idea who that is?! But Congratulations!!

Originally posted by Wo0kiEE
reply to post by KhaliWitch

 

One of the best deterrents ever, a bit of rain, on a lighter note I just got given a Signed Louis Saha Shirt. =0)

Didn't know people were looting Wilmslow!

It isn't just a bit at the moment, coming down sideways in absolute sheets and the main road here looks like it is about to flood. Though I am right on the coast, so always a bit worse here.

reply to post by stumason


Dear Stumason,
Now that is a very interesting question you raise: "Why didn't we all fall in to this trap". I'll start by tipping my hat to you for not having done so, since it would seem from what you state it was a distinct possibility. We are now transcending into the world of morals and values, parenting, schooling and opportunities, or actually lack of.

I think there is a somewhat cyclic link here, between modern society, lack of opportunities which in turn lead to uneducated and poor parents, which then breed and produce children with a high potential for criminal behaviour.

I can only talk of my own experience which were of strict parenting, regular beating for misbehaviour and an ingrained sense of right and wrong. Added to that a very firm schooling and parental belief in my capabilities I was immediately set apart from other children from different backgrounds. I did not lead a blessed childhood, I also fell into criminality at a young age and only because I stupidly thought it was "cool". So I could say I have a first hand experience also in what life could have been like had I chosen the wrong path.

Lack of moral values and fear of reprisal could be put forward as a major contributing factor here, I also believe lack of opportunities, even if you're willing to find something, contribute. You pose a very existential question here, one which I love to ponder, but ultimately all we have for comparison is the past, as you so rightly stated.

With population growth comes widening gaps in wealth, the poor are pushed into poor areas, the rich congregate together in their "elite" residential sectors. Envy and jealousy come into effect and you have, I think, an ever growing resentment that starts to overwhelm those without firm parental control. The parents themselves come from the previous generations low earning class and instil this resentment in their children.

I am going to have to think on this a lot more to have what I think is a true understanding of the motivational forces, I did read that scientists believed there is a chemical imbalance in those more prone to riot, that could be due to foods, lack of a good diet, and once more linked to prosperity or lack of in this case.

As to your closing statement, well I think you're going to have some back lash from that. I am not so sure it is really a cultural thing here, from what I have seen and read it would actually seem there are more caucasians (whites) involved than african/carribean etc.. I know this started in Tottenham, and supposedly over the shooting of a black drug dealer, but I don't think it was limited to that specific ethnic group.

T

Just been told a lot of the larger stores in Manchester are closing at 4:00pm today.
they must be expecting further trouble this evening

Hope all my ATS brothers and sisters in the UK made it through the night safely.

As ever I'm proud of my fellow Stokies. Everyone was on their best behavior last night.
Amazing we kept it together considering we are wedged between the Manchester & Brum trouble.

Originally posted by cheesyleps

Originally posted by Wo0kiEE
reply to post by KhaliWitch

 

One of the best deterrents ever, a bit of rain, on a lighter note I just got given a Signed Louis Saha Shirt. =0)

Didn't know people were looting Wilmslow!

Well they couldn't get me a TV

Originally posted by cheesyleps
A bit of good news for the North West:

The weather has taken a major turn for the worse! High winds and torrential rain at the moment. Always puts a dampener on riotous behavior in this country.

People moan about our soggy weather, but it has it's merits.

reply to post by cheesyleps


First bit of sun in the last 2 weeks here, but it's not gonna last long and the thermometer tops at 16 degrees Celsius brrrr