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China's Debt Problem Worse than Portugal

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posted on Sep, 16 2011 @ 11:39 PM
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reply to post by Xcathdra
 


How bout a giant reset button, X?

Money is the downfall of mankind. China, a Pawn,like every other nation who relies on it,like a meal. Cant wait to see those in need of food,snacking on their bars of Gold and Silver,washing it all down with a healthy salad of money.

edit on 16-9-2011 by sonnny1 because: (no reason given)




posted on Sep, 16 2011 @ 11:47 PM
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reply to post by Xcathdra
 


And Americas Debt Problem Worse than China, so there is no difference there. Every country has there own debt problems even canada.



posted on Sep, 17 2011 @ 12:01 AM
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Originally posted by ludwigvonmises003
is this some kind of a joke?US has lost most of its industrial base.


The only joke is the FoxNews comment and dismissal of anything that comes from it, regardless of the fact other news sources report on it. The US has the ability to expand production, as well as quickly gear up manfuacturing facilities. The comparison is based on the observation that if both countries suffered the loss of each otherrs markets, the US is in a far better position to come out the other side of it.

By the way, using the whole ignoring history and being doomed to repeat it, I believe Admiral Yamamoto had the same conversation with the Japanese leadership about the US and its capabilities. They were also wrong in that estimate of the US.



in the short term ,yes.

The amount China produces for the world, and a loss of those markets, would show up sooner, rather than later. That was evident when they had the elad in toys issue and the milk fiasco. 2 relatively minor areas cause huge issues for China.



Originally posted by ludwigvonmises003
What nonsense is this? Chinese market is full of JV,strategic alliances ,partnerships and equity alliances between foreign and local players.

Any foreign business in China is required to be pair with a Chinese equivelant, in addition to facing strict rules they must follow. The assumptiom you and others are making are limiting the fallout to just the US / China. You guys are ignoring allies as well as other afffected countries by Chinese actions in the South China Sea.

Without foreign business, which is responsible for the urbanization of China, China will have massive issues keeping those businesses up and operating. In addition to foreign capital used to run the businesses.

If you think China would come out on top thats fine. Personally speaking, and with the evidence present, I disagree with it. I think China, looking from outside in, looks stable. However, I beleive its not as strong as its being portrayed, nor do I think they are as stable as their government reports.

The bulk of Chinese trade imbalance comes from the, as another poster pointed out, cheap low tech items. Items that an easily be made in other countries in the event of the loss of Chinese trade.

I think the US will do just fine in the event of losing the talking doll and fake dog poop market.



posted on Sep, 17 2011 @ 12:02 AM
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reply to post by sonnny1
 


Reset would be nice.. However, when China refuses to abide by WTO obligations, what good would a rest do? They arent following the guidelines to start with. Its like the gun control argument.

they are called criminals for a reason.



posted on Sep, 17 2011 @ 12:07 AM
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Originally posted by Agent_USA_Supporter
reply to post by Xcathdra
 


And Americas Debt Problem Worse than China, so there is no difference there. Every country has there own debt problems even canada.


Thats not in dispute.... It revolves around intentionally hiding debt in an effort to mainpulate their currency to corner world markets.

The fact the US is 14 trillion in debt (more depending on if we include mandates / long term programs and its estimations) is not a secret. China on the other hand is trying to hide their debt issue.

I dont mind you holding the Us accountible on the fiscal issue since its fair game. However, dismissing other countries actions based solely on you hating the US, the argument is lacking.



posted on Sep, 17 2011 @ 12:16 AM
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If you look at what took down Russia at the end of the cold war it was that they could not compete with the US.

It got to the point that Russia was putting so much of its spending into the military to keep up with the US that when Reagan started star wars defence system they could not compete.

Is this what is happening now with china.
Was this economic downturn a plot by the US to bring down china.

Look at the money china has spent to take jobs from the US by subsidizing there industry. allowing out of control pollution and holding there peoples wages down. Now a economic downturn in the rest of the world has cut china's ability to sell there below cost products. and the only way they can sell there products is to cut the cost even more.

They are going to hit the breaking point soon if the US can hold out.



posted on Sep, 17 2011 @ 12:16 AM
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edit on 17-9-2011 by ANNED because: dp



posted on Sep, 17 2011 @ 12:18 AM
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You do make excessively silly arguments Xcathra,



The only joke is the FoxNews comment and dismissal of anything that comes from it, regardless of the fact other news sources report on it. The US has the ability to expand production, as well as quickly gear up manfuacturing facilities. The comparison is based on the observation that if both countries suffered the loss of each otherrs markets, the US is in a far better position to come out the other side of it. By the way, using the whole ignoring history and being doomed to repeat it, I believe Admiral Yamamoto had the same conversation with the Japanese leadership about the US and its capabilities. They were also wrong in that estimate of the US.


Firstly,Foxnews is a highly biased source thats known.




The US has the ability to expand production, as well as quickly gear up manfuacturing facilities.

really, then why did Dod and Congress say that it will take 15 years to reconstruct the REE supply chain?
think about it.It takes years to reconstruct manufacturing and processing facilities.






By the way, using the whole ignoring history and being doomed to repeat it, I believe Admiral Yamamoto had the same conversation with the Japanese leadership about the US and its capabilities. They were also wrong in that estimate of the US.


Again ,it seems economic history is not your strengths.After the WW1,the US was the greatest manufacturing powerhouse on the planet till the 50'-60's. USA had the supply chain of several industries in it,till your beloved Reagan,bill and Bush came and enabled outsourcing of entire industries and their supply chains.
Reconstructing supply chains is not a matter of months. Its a process of 15-30 years.



The comparison is based on the observation that if both countries suffered the loss of each otherrs markets, the US is in a far better position to come out the other side of


Seriously why do you keep regurgitating this? are you a cow or what? .

---
Lastly,I am a realist .The NWO is dismantling this once great nation USA just like how NWO dismantled the USSR through their puppet Mikhail Gorbachev.



posted on Sep, 17 2011 @ 12:22 AM
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The fact the US is 14 trillion in debt (more depending on if we include mandates / long term programs and its estimations) is not a secret. China on the other hand is trying to hide their debt issue.


USA is hiding its true debt by use of interest rate swaps. Secondly,the check the unfunded liabilities issue ,its around 200 trillion$.And the real GDP of USA is around 7.2 trillion$ which was our team's calculation in 2009. Dagong agency estimates around 5 trillion$.
BEA hides the true inflation by manipulating the way CPI is calculated.

Lastly , the Fed is not audited .

edit on 17-9-2011 by ludwigvonmises003 because: (no reason given)



posted on Sep, 17 2011 @ 12:22 AM
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reply to post by Xcathdra
 


Do you think if we do away with NAFTA,CAFTA,etc......Impose Tariffs on China,Take away Most Favored Nation status,things might change? I actually wondered why we gave China this in the first place? Did we give the Soviets MFN,back in the days? Of course China would retaliate by asking for their debt to be paid off,but America could default,and has defaulted in the past. Just a few things to consider,I guess........

BTW,S&F. I love these kind of threads.



posted on Sep, 17 2011 @ 12:29 AM
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Originally posted by ludwigvonmises003
You do make excessively silly arguments Xcathra,


not really...


Originally posted by ludwigvonmises003
Firstly,Foxnews is a highly biased source thats known.


not really.. I see more Democrats / opposing views on Fox on issues than I dont on MSNBC or CNN. To each thier own.


Originally posted by ludwigvonmises003
really, then why did Dod and Congress say that it will take 15 years to reconstruct the REE supply chain?
think about it.It takes years to reconstruct manufacturing and processing facilities.

Yeah, there is a reason politicians are that and not industry leaders. The same arguments were made during WWII, and they were wrong. This is another one of those cases where Dod would be wrong.



Originally posted by ludwigvonmises003
Again ,it seems economic history is not your strengths.After the WW1,the US was the greatest manufacturing powerhouse on the planet till the 50'-60's. USA had the supply chain of several industries in it,till your beloved Reagan,bill and Bush came and enabled outsourcing of entire industries and their supply chains.
Reconstructing supply chains is not a matter of months. Its a process of 15-30 years.

Lol my economic history is not lacking in the least. The US moved from a manufacturing based economy to an information style economy. What you and others ignore is the fact that it easier to fall back on something weve already mastered, than it is to be early in that stage fo development and having to go through trial and error on what does and does not work.


Originally posted by ludwigvonmises003
Seriously why do you keep regurgitating this? are you a cow or what? .

Not in the least.. Since you are resorting to name calling I am going to guess you have nothing to support your opposing view. How bout you go back, act your age, and supply more information for your argument.

Change my mind..


Originally posted by ludwigvonmises003
Lastly,I am a realist .The NWO is dismantling this once great nation USA just like how NWO dismantled the USSR through their puppet Mikhail Gorbachev.



LOL - Who is the NWO? Are they run by "T[TB"? If so where are they? Who are they? how do they operate? If its such a well known fact (the NWO / TPTB) exist, then it shouldnt be hard for you to stop them.



posted on Sep, 17 2011 @ 12:31 AM
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reply to post by ludwigvonmises003
 


I specifically pointed out the other debt factors to show the difference in basic debt and long term debt that fluctuates based on population / changing econmic factors, advances in technology / medical etc etc.

The 200 trillion is an estimate of total and is used for long term fiscal planning outlooks. In this case, China is not hiding their projected debt, they are hiding the actual basic debt.

There is a difference.



posted on Sep, 17 2011 @ 12:36 AM
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Fragile china delicately poised forces that support the oriental saucer, then withdraw, as all the western biscuits are ate.
Then the crumbs are exterminated on the delicate plate.
edit on 17-9-2011 by Dr Expired because: words



posted on Sep, 17 2011 @ 12:40 AM
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Originally posted by sonnny1
Do you think if we do away with NAFTA,CAFTA,etc......

Good question. The theory behind free trade is to equalize prosperity beetween regions. The problem is no one really knows how long equialization of prosperity takes. Its one thing to sign agreement saying we wont tax your items, you dont tax ours. What is not taken into account is how a country will act internally / domestic when dealing with that treaty.

If its an all or nothing approach, I would say it would work. Since we dont do that, and instead opt for free trade while subsidizing businesses and placing protections to protect businesses, then no it wont work.

A good idea in theory, yet chaos in practice.

What we have seen though are developing countries slowly moving forward, and we now have countries joining the space race.


Originally posted by sonnny1
Impose Tariffs on China,Take away Most Favored Nation status,things might change? I actually wondered why we gave China this in the first place? Did we give the Soviets MFN,back in the days?


China got MFN status for 2 reasons.
#1 - access to their market base for business
#2 - Buy them off during the cold war to side with the US / remain neutral towards the Soviet Union.

The Soviet Union and China, during the cold war, were not allies.

As for the Soviet question, we didnt have any trade with them, so MFN was never an issue.


Originally posted by sonnny1
Of course China would retaliate by asking for their debt to be paid off,but America could default,and has defaulted in the past. Just a few things to consider,I guess........

If we want to get technical the US could just print the 14trillion and pay off the debt. Since its not backed its an option. As far as margin call dont know what to say on what happens if we refuse to honor the debt. Im positive it would make Pandora look organized in comapison though..


Originally posted by sonnny1
BTW,S&F. I love these kind of threads.

Same.. Its always a good day when we learn something new / expand our horizons.
edit on 17-9-2011 by Xcathdra because: (no reason given)



posted on Sep, 17 2011 @ 12:45 AM
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reply to post by Xcathdra
 





Yeah, there is a reason politicians are that and not industry leaders. The same arguments were made during WWII, and they were wrong. This is another one of those cases where Dod would be wrong.


Please present the proof for this nonsense.Seems you have no experience in the procurement industry .Again during WW2 USA had entire supply chains within itself.Today USA has lost entire supply chains.
R & D for a supply chain is itself 5-15 years .Approval from govt and other agencies 3-5 years and considering red tape in USA I would give an estimate of 8-10 years.Constructing the main facilities -2-3 years. laying supporting infrastructure 3-10 years.

So genius how will USA reconstruct its supply chain according to you? alchemy?hocus pocus?conjure it? or wait greys will give it?






Lol my economic history is not lacking in the least. The US moved from a manufacturing based economy to an information style economy. What you and others ignore is the fact that it easier to fall back on something weve already mastered, than it is to be early in that stage fo development and having to go through trial and error on what does and does not work.


by using fancy terms,facts do not change.please use the term service based economy and yes those services are being outsourced too .




Who is the NWO? Are they run by "T[TB"? If so where are they? Who are they? how do they operate? If its such a well known fact (the NWO / TPTB) exist, then it shouldnt be hard for you to stop them.


Refer to Soviet dissident Juri Lina's work under the sign of the scorpion the rise and fall of the soviet empire . Also ,refer to architects of Deception by Juri Lina.Read new lies for old by Golitsyn.



posted on Sep, 17 2011 @ 12:50 AM
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reply to post by Xcathdra
 


again economist like Williams and other disagree with you ,its basic debt.
www.shadowstats.com...

www.swifteconomics.com...

by creative accounting USA hides its real debt. By using substitution ,hedonics BEA hides true inflation so like how is USA telling the truth.
In the investment circle the american stats are regarded as propaganda.



posted on Sep, 17 2011 @ 01:36 AM
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Originally posted by Agent_USA_Supporter
reply to post by Xcathdra
 


And Americas Debt Problem Worse than China, so there is no difference there. Every country has there own debt problems even canada.


Agreed.Many posters here refuse to see the obvious .I saw whats coming to usa in 2001 and hence I left.I made a good decision today and am much better off than 2001.



posted on Sep, 17 2011 @ 02:57 AM
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Originally posted by ludwigvonmises003

Originally posted by Agent_USA_Supporter
reply to post by Xcathdra
 


And Americas Debt Problem Worse than China, so there is no difference there. Every country has there own debt problems even canada.


Agreed.Many posters here refuse to see the obvious .I saw whats coming to usa in 2001 and hence I left.I made a good decision today and am much better off than 2001.


You 2, once again, miss the point. No one is disputing that the USA has a debt issue. The focus of this thread is on china being caught red handed lieing / covering their debt. As a side note the source you linked is from 2009 numbers, and backs up what ive responded with about the US and actual debt / funded / unfunded obligations that are long term (SS/Mdicare/etc). Also your hero on that site doesnt use Government standards. Instead he uses his own and bases it off reporting stat method used during the great depression. During that time CPI were different, as was standard of living and income, based on the economy setup at the time in addition using stats that "he" think s should be used.

Aside from obfuscation I am not sure why you 2 feel the need to continually insert the US into the topic. Are you both incapable of holding a conversation without trying to derail it into another Anti American rant? We have plenty of those threads around, so feel free to go run up your flag count there.

The Topic is China got caught lieing about their finances - Anything to add on that topc? If you dont thats fine, but instead of derailing this thread please make a seperate one that discusses the US and its debt issue.

Thanks
edit on 17-9-2011 by Xcathdra because: (no reason given)

edit on 17-9-2011 by Xcathdra because: (no reason given)



posted on Sep, 17 2011 @ 03:04 AM
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China just like any of the other emerging economies, rely on the consumption from America and Europe, when our economies tank, there will be no money left to buy chinese consumer goods. we all fall down.



posted on Sep, 17 2011 @ 04:12 AM
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Originally posted by woodwardjnr
China just like any of the other emerging economies, rely on the consumption from America and Europe, when our economies tank, there will be no money left to buy chinese consumer goods. we all fall down.


Agreed - but I also believe that not only is China well aware of this, but they have a cunning plan (which may or may not pan out as plans are won't to do). They've bought up all of this US debt - and then pulled the plug - no more they say, and definately no more to any of you Europeans. Is this because they have realised that their own version of QE - relentlessly printing their currency to buy these bonds has caused massive inflation? So what to do as a hedge against inflation - buy gold - I seem to remember that they have been buying tons of the stuff recently. Also seem to remember reading somewhere that Fort Knox is virtually empty - or that US had sold or leased most of their gold reserves. Read an interesting article on the Chinese recently, can't remember the site, but I'll search later - that said that historically the country with the most gold reserves becomes the superpower, ie Spain in 18th century, UK in 19th century, US 20th - ?? who will it be in the 21st.



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