A question about fuel

Originally posted by FreeSpeaker

I was thinking more along the lines of a rusty contrail in a nice clear blue sky. Nice photo.

Pics or it didn't happen

Does the engine have to be failing to be emmitting unburned fuel? Do the engines really burn up 100% of the fuel when fully up to speed?

No. There's always going to be some. But it's VERY clean now (relatively speaking, you would not want to breath car exhaust either). The main visual pollution from jet exhaust would be soot (carbon). But you just don't see it.

Consider when you see a plane leaving no contrail. The exhaust products are exactly the same, just different weather. You don't see any trail at all.

Originally posted by FreeSpeaker

...Here's a list of the chemicals in JP-8 exhaust.

Chloroform
Benzene
Trichloroethene
Toluene
Tetrachloroethene
Ethylbenzene
m,p-Xylene
o-Xylene
Styrene
p-Dichlorobenzene
Butane
Pentane
Hexane
Heptane
Octane
Nonane
Decane
Undecane
Dodecane

And here I was thinking jet exhaust was pretty clean for some reason. Maybe contrails really are chemtrails.

You left out water vapor and CO2. Those other particulates exist in the exhaust, but the largest single product of jet exhaust is water vapor.

Originally posted by Uncinus
Pics or it didn't happen

I never said i've seen it, just heard of it.

Originally posted by Uncinus
No. There's always going to be some. But it's VERY clean now (relatively speaking, you would not want to breath car exhaust either). The main visual pollution from jet exhaust would be soot (carbon). But you just don't see it.

Consider when you see a plane leaving no contrail. The exhaust products are exactly the same, just different weather. You don't see any trail at all.

Well, as I found on some video's , I know the color would not change anyways. JP-8 looks clear with a tiny twinge of blue/green from what I have seen.

reply to post by firepilot


Thanks for filling in the blanks. I stick to my theory of water vapour causing the strange looking contrails though. I just think it's foolish to be staring at the sky when so much is happening here on the ground that affects us far more drastically.

Originally posted by xXxinfidelxXx
I just think it's foolish to be staring at the sky when so much is happening here on the ground that affects us far more drastically.

That might be the actual conspiracy here. Get people to believe in something ridiculous like chemtrails to distract from the real injustices in our society.

Originally posted by FreeSpeaker
You're right, it was a cinch.

some secret huh??

Here's a list of the chemicals in JP-8 exhaust.

Chloroform
Benzene
Trichloroethene
Toluene
Tetrachloroethene
Ethylbenzene
m,p-Xylene
o-Xylene
Styrene
p-Dichlorobenzene
Butane
Pentane
Hexane
Heptane
Octane
Nonane
Decane
Undecane
Dodecane

And here I was thinking jet exhaust was pretty clean for some reason. Maybe contrails really are chemtrails.

It's a long and impressive lsit for sure!!

So what actualy is JP-8?? The full military specification is here - some of the additives are identified by formula, others by various standards & product names.

well of course it starts as kerosene - which means that it is a mixture of hydrocarbons from 6-16 carbon atoms in their chain.

these are:

Hexane, Heptane, Octane, Nonane, Decane, Undecane, Dodecane (those are from 6-12 and appear above).

apparently JP-8 is sufficiently distilled to not have 13, 14, 15 and 16 carbon-atom-chain hydrocarbons present.

Butnae and Pentane are low in the list of hydrocarbons & I am surprised to see them there.

Benzene is a 6-carbon atom hydrocarbon, but the atoms are in a ring, not a chain, so it is also a normal component of hte fuel - indeed some petrol/gasoline mixtures have been called "benzene" over the last century & a bit.

I was surprised to see Trichloroethene & Toluene in hte list - these are 2 chemicals I used to work with a lot as an aircraft mechanic. Trichloroethene, IIRC, was a degreaser that came in aerosol cans and also heated baths for tough jobs. Toluene is a general cleaner. I have literally washed my hands with both.

The 3 Xylenes are essentially variants of Benzene in their chemical makeup - they all feature a 6-atom carbon ring.

Styrene also has a Benzene 6-atom ring, with 2 further carbon atoms coming from it.

Tetrachloroethene is a 2-carbon chain, and is apparently used for some cleaning applications such as drycleaning and automotive cleaning, but I have never heard of it (which isn't particularly significant of course!!). apparently about 1 million tons of it was produced worldwide in 1985.

chloroform might seem odd, but it looks like it can be made from Tetrachloroethene somehow.

all of htem are identifable on wiki - not exactly secret again......

reply to post by Aloysius the Gaul


Informative, thank you for that Aloysius! Let's keep in mind (I'm looking at you, chemtrailers) that those chemicals were present in aircraft exhaust during a cold start, in -10C weather (link says -100C but I can't speak for it's accuracy). There wouldn't nearly be as many chemicals in the exhaust if the engine was running (warmed up and burning fuel efficiently).

reply to post by adeclerk


You hit the nail on the head there dude.

Originally posted by xXxinfidelxXx
reply to post by adeclerk

 

You hit the nail on the head there dude.

Aloysius touched upon it very well in this thread: Are chemtrailers actually pawns for the coal industry?, enjoy!

Originally posted by FreeSpeaker
reply to post by FreeSpeaker

 

Hypothetical situation...

What if a plane had a engine running below average efficiency while cruising at high altitude, producing contrails. Could the amounts of unburned fuel cause the trail to be discolored? I've heard of rusty colored contrails and wonder if this could be the cause.

Unburned fuel in jet exhaust gets carbonised with the heat, and makes nasty black plumes - it was common many eyars ago, especially with water injection in some engines that resulted in a lot of it.

this shot of some B-52's taking off shows what hapens:



What happens is the unburned fuel partially combusts in the exhaust stream - but there's not much oxygen, so a lot of the carbon doesn't get to form CO2 or CO - it stays as elemental carbon - soot - hence the black trail.

These days water injection isn't used any more, and engines are much more efficient so you don't see it much if at all.

One exception seems to be the engines on P-3/C-130/Cv-58-'s - it seems the old Allison turboprops can still leave a bit of a trail:

Well is seems the gov employees have been busy while I was away. Had to update my firewall and international redirects for my Ip. Way to many Gov creepy crawlies coming from ats.

Oh "the Gaul" your sooo, soo transparent. I can see clean through your forehead! Divide and conquer right? Yeah, i have a copy of Sun-tzu's book too.

Oh, and where are my manners? Gov. employee "adeclerk" my name is gokill. Gokill, Gov. employee "adeclerk.

I see your quite the busy (body) little gov employee. Debunking chemtrails, Spreading dis info about HAARP, and even promoting paying taxes. Somebodies bucking for a promotion.... You go Gurl!!

Ok, now that all the introductions are out of the way.... Lets get this party started!!!
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
So you basically want us to get in a tussle with each other about jet fuel. Right? Nope, not gonna happen. Remember it's "The People" as an 'we the people' against Gov. Disinfo Employee's, try to stay focused son...

So Guess I should start off with a US Military Pilots confession.

George set up a special open line for pilots to disclose what they knew about the alleged chemtrail spraying over America. One military pilot, who said he flies out of Edwards AFB, told of seeing a substance loaded into planes, which he described as clear and gelatin-like, that is then dropped between 10,000 and 30,000 ft. in the air. Its purpose, he said, is to create a kind of film that blocks radar from penetrating the area for a certain amount of time before it dissipates.

Guess we're not talking about jet fuel... Oh well, there goes that "the Gaul"...

Wait for it.... Wait for it... Now! Source

Next we will move on to a airline pilot instructor....

Another caller, who said he was an airline pilot instructor, referenced William Thomas' website, willthomas.net(1), and said chemtrails were colloidal substances containing human blood derivatives, being dropped in an effort to sicken the population.

So again no jet fuel connection... same source..

and then there is the dead elk... nothing about fuel....

Quayle said that sources told him that a person involved in counting the elk became sick with symptoms consistent with exposure to "organophosphates" such as a nerve agent.

same source..

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Ok a few visuals...

OMG there must be a lower elevation thermocline as the contrail seems to be at a much higher altitude then the chemtrail.




Ok enough of the horse play, now it's time to get wet... turned on yet? I hope so or this may hurt a bit.....
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
US PATENT OFFICE

Patent:
Stratospheric Welsbach seeding for reduction of global warming

Publication number: US5003186 (A)
Publication date: 1991-03-26
Inventors: David B. Chang of Tustin and I-Fu Shih
Applicant(s): HUGHES AIRCRAFT CO [US]

Abstract of US 5003186 (A)

A method is described for reducing atmospheric or global warming resulting from the presence of heat-trapping gases in the atmosphere, i.e., from the greenhouse effect. Such gases are relatively transparent to sunshine, but absorb strongly the long-wavelength infrared radiation released by the earth. The method includes the step of seeding the layer of heat-trapping gases in the atmosphere with particles of materials characterized by wavelength-dependent emissivity. Such materials include Welsbach materials and the oxides of metals which have high emissivity (and thus low reflectivities) in the visible and 8-12 micron infrared wavelength regions.




Chemtrails: US Patent #5003186:


The two inventors were still working for Raytheon, the company who bought Hughes Aircraft Co. as of 2005

www.raytheon.com...

Their idea is to fight greenhouse gases with dust. (David B. Chang and I-Fu Shih on counteracting the greenhouse effect)(includes related article)

www.accessmylibrary.com...

Council on Foreign Relations on Planetary Geoengineering: “Add more small reflecting particles in the upper part of the atmosphere”
March 27th, 2009

cryptogon.com...

The word Chemtrails itself... was that made up by Conspiracy theorists? Many would say yes... They would be wrong

Chemtrail proof! 1990 US Air Force document!

New Mexico State Library
Chemtrails, chemistry 131 manual, fall 1990 [microform].
Get your own copy.....&aspect=subtab33&menu=search&source=~!marquis]Link

Chemtrails, Chemistry 131 manual, fall 1991 : course policies and laboratory manual.



Rep. Kucinich's HR 2977 Names Chemtrails As An 'Exotic Weapon'

Here is the excerpt from the HR 2977 IH bill

(B) Such terms include exotic weapons systems such as--

(i) electronic, psychotronic, or information weapons;

(ii) chemtrails;

(iii) high altitude ultra low frequency weapons systems;

(iv) plasma, electromagnetic, sonic, or ultrasonic weapons;

(v) laser weapons systems;

(vi) strategic, theater, tactical, or extraterrestrial weapons; and

(vii) chemical, biological, environmental, climate, or tectonic weapons.

(C) The term `exotic weapons systems' includes weapons designed to damage space or natural ecosystems (such as the ionosphere and upper atmosphere) or climate, weather, and tectonic systems with the purpose of inducing damage or destruction upon a target population or region on earth or in space.

www.rense.com...

To see text of HR 2977:
www.carnicom.com...

Rep. Kucinich's Bill is also listed at this US Government site:
thomas.loc.gov...:./list/c107h.lst:2901

B-747 in Flight during Vortex Study

1974 this plane is equipped with special nozzles that NASA claims sprays smoke to study Vortex... perhaps, but it shows the equipment is readily available

Closeup of the wings.

More information here
link

German News Station Exposes Chemtrails- Translated!

The German Military are exposed spraying Chemtrails. This is a Mainstream Media Exposé. Here is the proof that brings this subject to the realm of 'Conspiracy Fact' They are spraying Barium & Aluminum into our skies to control the weather & our health!
mirrors.wordsforgood.org...

Here is the 'Weather Modification Bill-H.R. 2995' that was presented to Congress in 1995 to try and make this Orwellian population control legal:

H.R. 2995 [109th]: Weather Modification Research and Technology Transfer Authorization Act of 2005
www.govtrack.us...

S. 517 [109th]: Weather Modification Research and Development Policy Authorization Act of 2005
www.govtrack.us...

S. 2170 [108th]: Weather Modification Research and Technology Transfer Authorization Act
www.govtrack.us...

German News Station Exposes Chemtrails- Translated!
mirrors.wordsforgood.org...

Ok that's enough for now, Wouldn't want to shoot my whole wad on the first date...

Gaul, Let it go man.... Let it go....

edit on 7-9-2011 by GoKill because: (no reason given)

edit on 7-9-2011 by GoKill because: maaauh

edit on 7-9-2011 by GoKill because: Was it good for you?

GoKill,
I think the OP raised some unique points about fuel, which you really failed to address.

You did dismiss it by pointing to some anonymous call-ins to the Coast-to-Coast radio show.
Why do you give these two calls credibility ? Is it because every topic, idea, and anonymous phone call on his show is equally credible ? I bet I can find callers/guests on that show, who have claimed the "chemtrails" ARE in the fuel........which leads me to come to the conclusion that ANY of the info on that show is not of any use as a stopping point for decision making. All of the claims there needs further investigation IMO.

Instead, the majority of the rest your post is what amounts to a link farm, regurgitating the most talked about (and the most debunked) "chemtrail" evidence.

If you can answer ONE question for me......
Are you aware of the reason the "German's admit to chemtrailing" video has been debunked....and why it has been debunked ?

..thanks.

Originally posted by GoKill
Chemtrail proof! 1990 US Air Force document!

snip

Chemtrails, Chemistry 131 manual, fall 1991 : course policies and laboratory manual.

Yes - a basic chemistry textbook that makes up the word "chemtrails" 4-5 years before the conspiracy was supposed to have started, and which has nothing to do with spraying anything at all??

Rep. Kucinich's HR 2977 Names Chemtrails As An 'Exotic Weapon'

Here is the excerpt from the HR 2977 IH bill

(B) Such terms include exotic weapons systems such as--

(i) electronic, psychotronic, or information weapons;

(ii) chemtrails;

(iii) high altitude ultra low frequency weapons systems;

(iv) plasma, electromagnetic, sonic, or ultrasonic weapons;

(v) laser weapons systems;

(vi) strategic, theater, tactical, or extraterrestrial weapons; and

(vii) chemical, biological, environmental, climate, or tectonic weapons.

(C) The term `exotic weapons systems' includes weapons designed to damage space or natural ecosystems (such as the ionosphere and upper atmosphere) or climate, weather, and tectonic systems with the purpose of inducing damage or destruction upon a target population or region on earth or in space.

www.rense.com...

To see text of HR 2977:
www.carnicom.com...

Rep. Kucinich's Bill is also listed at this US Government site:
thomas.loc.gov...:./list/c107h.lst:2901

What about it?? The term "chemtrails" was removed, and the bill itself offers no evidence that anything mentioned in it actually exists??

B-747 in Flight during Vortex Study

1974 this plane is equipped with special nozzles that NASA claims sprays smoke to study Vortex... perhaps, but it shows the equipment is readily available

Absolutely - it has never been in doubt that technically spraying something is simple - aircraft have been spraying chemicals for ag work, etc for over half a century.

If this is news to you then you are seriously behind the times!

AS for your previous post about it "not being in the fuel" - my OP is about that part of the conspiracy theory that says that it IS in the fuel.

I am well aware that there are other theories that are all about things that are not fuel - and you describing chaff and something else that has never been actually clearly identified are reasonable topics for other threads - go ahead - fill your boots by starting a thread "Well what's this then?" of something similar.

The German Military are exposed spraying Chemtrails. This is a Mainstream Media Exposé. Here is the proof that brings this subject to the realm of 'Conspiracy Fact' They are spraying Barium & Aluminum into our skies to control the weather & our health!
mirrors.wordsforgood.org...

Been proved a complete fabrication by the chemtrail hoax pushers - the Germans "admitted" to "spraying" chaff which interfered with weather radar - not chemtrails at all.

Here is the 'Weather Modification Bill-H.R. 2995' that was presented to Congress in 1995 to try and make this Orwellian population control legal:

More cloud seeding - "Weather modification" has been around for 60+ years - you need to get a bit more up to day!

Ok that's enough for now, Wouldn't want to shoot my whole wad on the first date...

Oh I'm pretty sure you'll keep your hand on it for a while yet....

Originally posted by GoKill

If you can answer ONE question for me......
Are you aware of the reason the "German's admit to chemtrailing" video has been debunked....and why it has been debunked ?

..thanks.

Sure, whenever 1 person comes forth with any credible evidence, there are dozens of gov employees like yourself ( established above) that jump on it, like stink on sht. Effectively killing it in the minds of the simpleton. However one merely needs to look at the bigger picture to see what is truly going on.

Sometimes the details are important though. If you're basing an argument on lies, then it's not a good argument. The German video is a hoax, a deliberate mistranslation. For example:

[atsimg]http://files.abovetopsecret.com/images/member/c3a9f86e2584.jpg[/atsimg]

Full details here:
contrailscience.com...

reply to post by Aloysius the Gaul


hi - just a sugestion - but this topic would benefit [ IMHO ] from an explaination of how single point refueling works , and specifically how putting a different fuel mix in a single tank would be virtually impossible [ without the knowledge of both the pilots and the refueling technician ]

i THINK i know how it works [ at least in maritime instalations ] - but dont feel confident attempting to explain how it works in aircraft to laymen

Originally posted by Pervius
Because the DC-10's engine on it's tail doesn't have to run until they are ready to release chemicals into it's exhaust.


The DC-10 can fly with just it's wing engines.


747's can leave their APU's off at the airport, taxi and fly with no APU. Then when you get to 30,000 feet....kick on the APU and spit out the chemicals with that engine.


You CAN NOT release chemicals via wing mounted engines. Bleed air from those engines are used for air in the cabin and cockpit, to pressurize the aircraft.

APU's are used for running the electrics, a/c and for starting the engines. After the engines are started they take over the duties the apu was for before and it's turned off.
It's turned on again when it lands at the destination airport, so that when the engines are shut down the lights and avionics dont crap out.

Often times an apu will not be working and ground power and an airstart cart are required to power the electrics an start the engines.