OK tenpin

I will bite

Which God are you talking about?

How do we choose WHOSE invisible friend runs the show?

Which God ?

Exactly.

My main point was to show that without God there is no such thing as absolute morals. Not to show that there is a God.

I know God. You can trust that the one who created the Universe (and you) will ultimately deal with his creation. You think its taking a long time for Him to do so ?

He doesn't, he created time.

Originally posted by TenPin
Which God ?

Exactly.

My main point was to show that without God there is no such thing as absolute morals. Not to show that there is a God.

And my point is how can you run a country using the rules of an invisible friend that half dont believe in and the other half disagree on who he is?

Thats why we have the laws of man, otherwise we would be little better than the Taliban

Originally posted by Amuk
And my point is how can you run a country using the rules of an invisible friend that half dont believe in and the other half disagree on who he is?

Thats why we have the laws of man, otherwise we would be little better than the Taliban

But I think that's the point. The laws of man are shaped (and have been shaped by) religion.

Same with the "morals" of today. Our whole culture stems from a religious shaped culture.

Originally posted by KrazyJethro
Same with the "morals" of today. Our whole culture stems from a religious shaped culture.

True but Greek culture has shaped a lot of our Government and laws but that doesnt mean we should all have to sacrafice to Zeus or that the Illiad was the word of God.

I dont really see our laws as being based on the bible though, murder is outlawed in countries that dont believe in God the same as those that do. When you bring religion into the picture you open up a hole nother can of worms.

Why does murder, rape, incest, etc have to be bad ONLY because of religion? Arent they bad in and of themselves? Arent these same actions CONDONED in not only the Bible but also tha Talmud and the Koran in certian passages?

I am just saying that religion should not be the bottom line when considering the morality of society as a whole



[edit on 24-8-2004 by Amuk]

Originally posted by Amuk
religion should not be the bottom line when considering the morality of society as a whole

Agreed, usually people know what's right and what's wrong they don't learn it from the bible... The Talmud, The koran...
Some people need organized religion because they can't do it on their own, that doesn't mean that society as a whole needs it rammed down their throats...

Not to mention, these so called righteous pastors, priests, ect don't necessarily practice what they preach,and neither do their followers...

Originally posted by Amuk

True but Greek culture has shaped a lot of our Government and laws but that doesnt mean we should all have to sacrafice to Zeus or that the Illiad was the word of God.

See, you've proved my point. The essence of the greek system is still there. Same goes for the religious influence on culture. It has shaped the moral system we still latch on to.

There is no universal morals, nothing ingrained in us aside from the instinct (which is self preservation rather than moral). So it must have come from somewhere. Rome, that's where. They shaped the whole of European culture, who in turn spawned ours.

I dont really see our laws as being based on the bible though, murder is outlawed in countries that dont believe in God the same as those that do. When you bring religion into the picture you open up a hole nother can of worms.

Yes, but who has been the primary influencer the world over (and this is completely leaving out the fact that other religions say the same thing). Europe. The English Empire, Romans, etc.

Also, it's not so much in the laws as it is in our culture as the loose fabric on which we base our own views.

Why does murder, rape, incest, etc have to be bad ONLY because of religion? Arent they bad in and of themselves? Arent these same actions CONDONED in not only the Bible but also tha Talmud and the Koran in certian passages?

Because murder and rape, etc are not wrong universally. Things have to be wrong according to something, preferably to something greater than ourselves. That pretty much leaves God.

I am just saying that religion should not be the bottom line when considering the morality of society as a whole

But that is the thing you aren't thinking of. There is no considering social morality. It's a huge and comlex thing to change. Took us decades (and then some) just to stop killing black folks.

But if there is no universal morality, only relative morality, then no one is right.

Think of it like this. If murder was legal, and to you it is grossly wrong. You would rail against it, and would be called an oppresor because you restrict autonomous use of ones body.

Silly, but that little gem is used all the time.

Many of the laws we have are based on observing how people can best get along. In effect, they are based off an informal social science and applied to form 'a more perfect union.' Note it doesn't say 'perfect union.'

The fact that church and state are seperate probably didn't come from religion, but from watching the bloody affects of mixing those two elements.

Checks and balances in government do not come from religion, but the fact that power is a corrupting force is a religious observance. Note Jesus' temptations in the desert.

Originally posted by taibunsuu
Many of the laws we have are based on observing how people can best get along. In effect, they are based off an informal social science and applied to form 'a more perfect union.' Note it doesn't say 'perfect union.'

The fact that church and state are seperate probably didn't come from religion, but from watching the bloody affects of mixing those two elements.

Checks and balances in government do not come from religion, but the fact that power is a corrupting force is a religious observance. Note Jesus' temptations in the desert.

I agree, it would have come from the affect of the Catholic church's influence in England (and the trouble with the Protestants).

But it does NOT mean that if religion is the justification for your viewpoint, that it is invalid, as many around here think.

Opinion and views come from a great many sources, to include irrational places such as emotion etc. It is unavoidable considering our human wiring.

Originally posted by KrazyJethro

Why does murder, rape, incest, etc have to be bad ONLY because of religion? Arent they bad in and of themselves? Arent these same actions CONDONED in not only the Bible but also tha Talmud and the Koran in certian passages?

Because murder and rape, etc are not wrong universally. Things have to be wrong according to something, preferably to something greater than ourselves. That pretty much leaves God.

Not really there are places in the bible that OK rape,incest, murder, etc.

And what if you are dealing with a group of people that dont believe in that God, would murder then be ok for them?

The trouble with Gods are they are so damn many of them....LOL

[edit on 25-8-2004 by Amuk]

Let's not forget that even though religious values indicate that we shall not kill, the government often goes over the head of God and kills, I could be wrong, because I have never really read the Bible, but is there any fine print in the 10 commandments giving the OK as long as it is for a "legitimate" reason? If not, how is it OK to bypass religious values, and still say our society is based on them? Is religion something that can be utilized when convenient, but just "turned off" when inconvenient?