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Russian Government vs Russian Mafia

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posted on Aug, 17 2004 @ 04:04 PM
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I've never been to Russia but i would like to someday, however i understand that the Russian mafia has basically a foothold in virtually every aspect of Russian life.

Since the mafia have entrenched themselves deeply into Russian society, business, industry etc...could there ever be a way out of the mafia's grip? If such a leader emerged who had his own trustworthy cabinet, with good connections to the military could they topple the mafia?

Russia technically should be one of the richest countries in the world, from my understanding it has vast supplies of oil and other natural resources surely the Government could somehow defeat the mafia? At least for the people of Russia..

It's just something i've been thinking about...




posted on Aug, 17 2004 @ 04:09 PM
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Originally posted by Flyboy211
I've never been to Russia but i would like to someday,


You should definitely go, it's fun.

Learn a little language before you go.



however i understand that the Russian mafia has basically a foothold in virtually every aspect of Russian life.


Correct.



Since the mafia have entrenched themselves deeply into Russian society, business, industry etc...could there ever be a way out of the mafia's grip?


No.



If such a leader emerged who had his own trustworthy cabinet, with good connections to the military could they topple the mafia?


Leader w/o connections to mafia does not have election chances and in fact has a chance to end up in the morgue.



Russia technically should be one of the richest countries in the world, from my understanding it has vast supplies of oil and other natural resources surely the Government could somehow defeat the mafia?


Why would it? It's too busy stuffing it's own pocket.



At least for the people of Russia..


They don't care.



And yes, I am Russian.



posted on Aug, 17 2004 @ 04:55 PM
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Don't you want a country free from the Mafia? How could a leader/party emerge to topple the mafia?



posted on Aug, 17 2004 @ 05:08 PM
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Topple the russian mofia? Not likely.

The US has hard enough time trying to just slow its growth here. The recent arrest of Ivankov was a blow but he isn't the first or the last red mob boss to get deported.

The only hope for russia is that the mob collapses from within.



posted on Aug, 17 2004 @ 05:32 PM
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Infiltration and informants is the first step, but i don't know what Russia has instead of the KGB and whether they're effective and not in the Mafia's pockets. Russia will never progress as a country until the Mafia are kicked out, it's not impossible it'll just take a lot of work.



posted on Aug, 17 2004 @ 05:34 PM
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Originally posted by Flyboy211
Russia will never progress as a country until the Mafia are kicked out, it's not impossible it'll just take a lot of work.


I agree. It's tough the first 10,000 years, then you get the hang of it



posted on Aug, 17 2004 @ 05:40 PM
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Have hope, they'll either kill eachother, fade to dust like the Soviet Union or be overthrown.



posted on Aug, 17 2004 @ 05:52 PM
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Originally posted by Flyboy211
Have hope, they'll either kill eachother, fade to dust like the Soviet Union or be overthrown.


The Soviet Union didn't fade to dust. It was mismanaged by people with lack of real leadership skills (Gorbachev is one shining example of such failure). These people were in control because the system allowed them to (i.e. people at large didn't have much say in politics or economy).

The Mafia is by definition is highly competetive environment. It fosters discipline, leadership and innovation. This is augmented by swift and decisive enforcement. Therefore, it's a system arguably more viable than the SU of the old. (regrettably)



posted on Aug, 17 2004 @ 05:57 PM
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I think you'll find it has faded to dust, it no longer exists correct? Even if the Mafia has discipline, control, leadership do you really want protection from those kind of people? If Russia ever came under attack god forbid, would the Mafia defend Mother Russia? Do they have the necessary training and capability to do so?

These are questions you have to ask yourself.



posted on Aug, 17 2004 @ 06:00 PM
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Originally posted by Flyboy211
I think you'll find it has faded to dust, it no longer exists correct?


I was referring to the fact that it did not gradually vanish, but went through a breakup.



Even if the Mafia has discipline, control, leadership do you really want protection from those kind of people?


I never said I was a fan of Mafia. I think it is indeed a serious problem.


Thanks for caring

Peace.



posted on Aug, 17 2004 @ 06:14 PM
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I don't mean to come across as nasty or anything, i know that the decline of the SU was gradual i used the term 'faded to dust' because they no longer exist.

I do care because i can see real potential in Russia, i don't care what benefits a criminal organization provides, they are only that criminals. If Russia ever came under attack i doubt the mafia could defend Russia, or would even bother. They don't have training, combat experience, nor a navy, air force or an army for that matter, they're just a band of thugs with guns and happen to have almost everyone in their pockets.

The problem is like you rightly pointed out, because a lot of people in government and other places benefit from this 'arrangement' with the mafia, they won't want to see a change. Why would they? If they're making tons of money from it then they'll stay happy. That's their comfort zone unfortunetely this is in my opinion to the detriment to the rest of the Russian people. Because at the end of the day that's who Russia belongs to, not the government, the military or the mafia, but to the PEOPLE.

I can only hope that someday someone with enough courage will make a stand against corruption and against the mafia. Can you envisage Russia progressing while the Mafia are in power?

I certainly can't, i hope they get what they deserve.



posted on Aug, 17 2004 @ 07:52 PM
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The Red Mafia is the most powerful mafia in the world IMO. They are also some of the smartest people in organized crime. The men of the Italian Mafia play bocce ball, The men of the Russian Mafia play chess. They should say it all right there.

The fall of the USSR was a breeding ground for the Mafia on a national scale.

I would be one hell of a up hill battle to get rid of them.



posted on Aug, 18 2004 @ 06:25 PM
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I know the mafia are a nationwide problem for Russia but they can be stopped. If only a true leader in Russia would emerge and have the courage and integrity to stand up against them, rally the might of the Red Army and use whatever resources they have at their disposal. Who wants to live in a country run by thugs?

Yes you're right, it would be a major uphill battle against them but it's one you can win. Perserverance, determination and brains are what's needed to defeat them, only then can Russia truly emerge from the ashes and be a power to be reckoned with.

I think if you wanted to take down the mafia, you'd need to rely heavily on intelligence, infiltration, informants and perhaps play them at their game, by use of payoffs, bribes, deals whatever it takes.

With a discliplined and organized army can you really imagine the Mafia matching the strength of the Red Army?



posted on Aug, 18 2004 @ 06:41 PM
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Originally posted by Flyboy211
I know the mafia are a nationwide problem for Russia but they can be stopped. If only a true leader in Russia would emerge and have the courage and integrity to stand up against them, rally the might of the Red Army and use whatever resources they have at their disposal. Who wants to live in a country run by thugs?


Everybody!

This is the paradox. People watch movies where crime and gangs are glorified, not unlike the gangsta rap in this country. Hope this clarifies that.




With a discliplined and organized army can you really imagine the Mafia matching the strength of the Red Army?


Red Army is corrupt to the bone. There have been cases when officers sold ammo to the Chechen guerillas, and in some cases arranged for the soldiers to be ambushed and taken for ransom. This sounds crazy but it's true.

Ever since 1992 I thought that the only way out, is ultra-nationalism (call it fascism if you will) when the strength of conviction overrides everything else and LOTS of people feel determined to stamp out the organized crime.
I think Mussolini whooped the Mafia's ass in his time, correct?



posted on Aug, 18 2004 @ 07:20 PM
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Russia could use a group like the Untouchables. It showed that even a small group of men could have a large impact on organized crime. Granted the Red Mafia is a whole different beast then the american mafia but it could be a start.

Aelita is the KGB as corrupt as the Red Army I think they would be a better weapon in a effort to get rid of the mafia.



posted on Aug, 18 2004 @ 07:30 PM
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Originally posted by ShadowXIX

Aelita is the KGB as corrupt as the Red Army I think they would be a better weapon in a effort to get rid of the mafia.



It's now called the FSB (Federal Security Bureau). They are by definition a highly secretive organization, so I don't have any data on them at all. I guess this means they are good in some respect


Yes they I'm sure are a quite capable bunch of people (a few of my friends went there after college). They work, however, much under the Kremlin's control, and Kremlin is influenced by the oligarchs, and oligarchs use mafia as their private (and extremely powerful) enforcers. So that closes the circle.

Just read from a St.Petersburg medical source related to gunshot wounds... "by the character of the wounds we observe the city has become very similar to a war zone".



posted on Aug, 19 2004 @ 06:43 PM
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Like i said earlier, if you want to combat the Mafia and organized crime you need intelligence, that's the key so you can try and stay one step ahead of them. Planting informants into their gangs, tapping phone lines even falsifying evidence and turning one group against another.

Since the military happen to be in the pockets of the mafia that obviously poses a problem. But with a re-financed Russia couldn't it stop the bribes, cut out the corruption and put the Army in first gear. If you could somehow get rid of the corruption within the army, or most of it anyhow. I doubt the mafia would be able to oppose them would they?

Ultra-nationalism may be the way to go, although against crime.



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