Is the obelisk in St. Peter's Square Masonic?

page: 1
6
<<   2  3  4 >>

log in

join

posted on Aug, 5 2011 @ 05:38 PM
link   
The animosity between the Catholic Church and the Freemason's is no secret. Until recent times, a Catholic who joined the Mason's was automatically excommunicated from the Church. The Church views Masonry, even today, as a grave threat to to the faith of its members because of its expounding of the principal of religious indifference; the view that all religions are equal and it does not matter what faith one holds.

This has caused many to question the obelisk which sits so prominently in St. Peter's Square at the Vatican.



The obelisk has been an occult symbol which features prominently is Freemasonry. The Washington Memorial in Washington D.C. is but one example.


Ever wondered what are the meaning of these "pillars" that are found all over the world from Washington (the Washington Monument) to the Vatican? Why do the "Freemasons" regard them as "powerful symbols" and what does the Bible have to say about them?

Masonic author, Rollin Blackmer, elaborates: : The Symbolism regarding solar (sun) worship indicated by the point within the circle has many variations, but one of the most primitive and natural was the sun was to be regarded as the male generative power of nature. To the ancient philosopher the origin and creation of life led to the contemplation of only one process, the generative act. The sun god was certainly the generator of life, light and heat, the male principle, and this was symbolically represented by the phallus or Lingam, which was some picture, more or less veiled, of the human male generative organ. The most frequent illustration was of a pillar set up in the center of a circle. The circle just as distinctively represented the earth or female principle. The sun was the great father, under his benign influence all nature germinated, and the earth was the universal mother in whose ample womb all these germs grew to maturity."


In Our Phallic Heritage we are told that "All pillars or columns originally had a phallic significance, and were therefore considered sacred." Pan, the goat god and god of sensuality, was often represented as an obelisk.


It seems strange that such an object would be present in the Vatican or that the Church would go to such trouble to have an ancient obelisk moved to be the center piece in St. Peter's Square.


Of course the Masons and Egyptians aren't the only ones who had high regard for the obelisk. In front of the Vatican stands the very same obelisk that once stood in Egypt. Ralph Woodrow explains: "The very same obelisk that once stood at the ancient temple which was the center of Egyptian paganism, now stands before the mother church of Romanism. This seems like more than a mere coincidence.

"The red granite obelisk of the Vatican is itself 83 feet high (132 feet high with its foundation) and weighs 320 tons. In 1586, in order to center it in front of the Church in St. Peters square, it was moved to its present location by order of Pope Sixtus V. Of course moving this heavy obelisk was a very difficult task. Many movers refused to attempt the feat, especially since the Pope had attached the death penalty if the obelisk was dropped and broken. Finally a man by the name of Domenico Fontana accepted the responsibility. With 45 winches, 160 horses and a crew of 800 workmen, the task of moving began. The date was September 10, 1586. Multitudes crowded the extensive square. While the obelisk was being moved, the crowd, upon penalty of death, was required to remain silent. But after the obelisk was successfully erected, there was the sound of hundreds of bells ringing, the roar of cannons and the loud cheer of the multitude."

The Watchman

Recently Pope Benedict XVI offered a more benign explanation for the obelisk in St. Peter's Square; he claims that it is a giant sundial to aid the faithful to mind their prayer times and holy days throughout the year.


High noon: How the sun and moon guided prayer times and liturgy

Hidden among the paving stones of St. Peter's Square there is a simple clock and calendar. All you need is a sunny day.

The 83-foot stone obelisk in the middle of the square acts as a sundial that can accurately indicate midday and the two solstices thanks to a granite meridian and marble markers embedded in the square.

Pope Benedict XVI proudly pointed out the hidden timepiece during an Angelus address he gave on the winter solstice a few years ago.

"The great obelisk casts its shadow in a line that runs along the paving stones toward the fountain beneath this window and in these days, the shadow is at its longest of the year," he told pilgrims from the window of his library.

In fact, at noon on Dec. 21, the obelisk's shadow falls on the marble disk furthest from the obelisk's base, while at noon on June 21 -- the summer solstice -- the tip of the shadow will fall just a few yards from the obelisk. In between are five other disks marking when the sun enters into which sign of the zodiac.


A long, thin granite strip running from the obelisk toward the pope's window and through one of the fountains acts as the meridian: a line that indicates when the sun has reached true or solar noon and is at its highest point in the sky.

The pope, in his solstice soliloquy, reminded people that the church has always been keenly interested in astronomy to help guide and establish fundamental liturgical days and the times of prayer such as the Angelus, which is recited in the morning, at noon and in the evening. While sunrise and sunset are easy to figure out, sundials could accurately tell midday, he said.

Catholic News

Some may point out that the Church following the Zodiac proves its pagan influences but, there are some that argue that the Zodiac actually tells the story of Christ the redeemer and has been written in the stars for all the world to see through all the ages, if they just knew how to interpret what they see.


Not many folks have heard about the Bible in the stars. This is definitely NOT astrology. Astrology can't even put three signs together to make a story, whereas, the 48 constellations that make up the true Zodiac all go together to tell the story of Jesus, the Redeemer. The story includes His birth and life prophesy(the first four major Signs; 16 constellations), His dealings with His elect people(the second four major Signs), and His coming in triumph over Satan( the last four major Signs).

Zodiac - The Bible in the stars

Do you buy the Pope's explanation, or do you believe the Church is somehow in league with the Masons, only pretending to be their enemies as the work, hand in hand, to impose the New World Order upon the world.

edit on 8/5/11 by FortAnthem because:





posted on Aug, 5 2011 @ 05:51 PM
link   
No it's Egyptian.

It was stolen from Egypt and placed there.

Back on topic. As the Masons base their whole philosophy on the building of the pyramids, and as the Pyramids were built by Egyptians, what do you reckon?



posted on Aug, 5 2011 @ 05:57 PM
link   
Obelisk = penis
Sun = vagina



posted on Aug, 5 2011 @ 07:37 PM
link   
I don't think the Sun equals the vagina....but i can see how it would have feminine traits in some schools of mystery as it is a life giver. The universe is a female universe, as it is creative and a life giver, as well. While this is just a sidenote, maleness is a rare trait in our universe. An anomaly of sorts.

The obelisk predates Masons and Catholics. They both derive the same symbol from a similar source: a tradition of Esoteric teaching only evident to the initiated. The obelisk is a phallic symbol.

While the Masons use it, its use here by the Catholics has nothing to do with Masonism.



posted on Aug, 5 2011 @ 10:14 PM
link   
reply to post by FortAnthem
 

I know some Catholics who are Masons. One is only excommunicated if found out. Freemasonry teaches religious tolerance, not really indifference.

The obelisk is quite beautiful but predates Freemasonry. Where in Masonic lore/legend does the obelisk appear? I was just in Rome and visited the Vatican. Quite spectacular.

Pillars are a basic architecture and support. It came about from time and experience stemming from human need to hide away from vicissitudes and inclemencies of the seasons, and other such threats to their life and comfort.

Pillars are symbols of support and Freemasonry uses this allegory in several ways. Obelisks are not pillars as they do not perform the same task or hold the dame meaning.



posted on Aug, 5 2011 @ 10:16 PM
link   

Originally posted by bigfatfurrytexan
I don't think the Sun equals the vagina....but i can see how it would have feminine traits in some schools of mystery as it is a life giver. The universe is a female universe, as it is creative and a life giver, as well. While this is just a sidenote, maleness is a rare trait in our universe. An anomaly of sorts.

The obelisk predates Masons and Catholics. They both derive the same symbol from a similar source: a tradition of Esoteric teaching only evident to the initiated. The obelisk is a phallic symbol.


bigfatfurrytexan,

Well I can tell you that the original esoteric teaching recognised the sun as existing in a perpetual state of divine ecstacy and they created obelisks to symbolize their own (male) potency in which the sun supposedly takes delight in. To say any more would mean breaking the Initiate's vow of silence.
edit on 29/09 by Juran because: text



posted on Aug, 5 2011 @ 10:39 PM
link   
reply to post by KSigMason
 


The idea that obelisks are a masonic symbol is widespread in many conspiratorial circles.


To Freemasons groping for mystic enlightenment in the 1800s the obelisk was the only architectural symbol of Osiris still in existence. And if, as some Masonic historians claim, Hiram Abiff is really Osiris reborn,, there could be no greater proof of Masonic ascendency in the modern world than Egyptian obelisks thrust by Masons into the heart of the West's greatest cities. These would also symbolize Boaz and Jachin, the twin pillars which Masons claim were built in front of Soloman's Temple, in 'imitation of two obelisks at the entrance of Egyptian temples'.[9.] These are mentioned even in the Book of the Dead, the texts which every well-heeled Ancient Egyptian had placed in his tomb to make sure he was resurrected in the Kingdom of Osiris: 'Two pillars at the gateway to his house were Set and Horus.

Freemasonry watch

I have seen many times the accusation that the Church is influenced or controlled by Masonry with the obelisk in St. Peter's Square used as evidence of this claim.

My purpose in making this thread was to show the Church's explanation for the presence of the obelisk to educate those who may be influenced by the Masonic Church claim that the obelisk is a symbol predating Masonry and there is probably a more benign reason for the presence of the obelisk.

The Church has plenty of problems today and I do believe some of them are the result of infiltration from hostile groups (who may be Masons or Russian communists) but, I don't think they would be dumb enough to put up a "Masonic" obelisk right in the middle of the Vatican which would risk their operation.

The obelisk was erected long before Masonry became a major force in the world and most likely has nothing to do with them.



posted on Aug, 6 2011 @ 05:28 AM
link   
reply to post by FortAnthem
 


I have asked the question a few times and gotten the same answer. The obelisk is not a "masonic" symbol. I have seen it in grave yards with masonic symbols on it, and in art work as in the OP, but when used in art work, I have usually not seen any relation to masonry. If it is a masonic symbol, the teachings explaining it, have been lost. Or maybe it's one of those things you don't learn until you get to the 33rd degree. I don't know.

If you think the Catholic church is secretly friendly with masonry, I am not sure what to say. Being a catholic and a mason myself, I am sure that if I went back to church and told the bishop I was a mason, he would tell me I cannot be both. I am much happier with the tolerance idea than the domination idea. Like Rodney King says, "why can't we all just get along?"

And BTW, another stone art piece with a phallic reference? Dude, I am not sure about you now.



posted on Aug, 6 2011 @ 06:10 AM
link   

Originally posted by FortAnthem
reply to post by KSigMason
 


Freemasonry watch


Sourcing Freemasonrywatch as a source about Masonry is about as off as sourcing Jack Chick comics. Both proudly grind axes, not the sort of source you want if you don't want to smear yourself with their same laughable biases.



posted on Aug, 6 2011 @ 07:54 AM
link   
reply to post by FortAnthem
 

Freemasonry Watch? I may be wrong, but the founder of that site is a Catholic zealot...kind of funny that you would start a thread on the Vatican and the Masons using a Catholic source. Just because it is widespread doesn't mean it is accurate or factual.

"If a man is offered a fact which goes against his instincts, he will scrutinize it closely, and unless the evidence is overwhelming, he will refuse to believe it. If on the other hand, he is offered something which affords a reason for acting in accordance to his instincts, he will accept it even on the slightest evidence. The origin of myths is explained in this way."
- Bertrand Russell

Stephen Dafoe wrote a few books on the Templars and the Masonic Templars. In the first chapter he states:

"We Freemasons can be a funny lot. Never content with simply being part of an organization that has survived and thrived for three centuries, we are constantly searching for evidence that the Masonic Craft must stem from some ancient source."

He goes onto go through recorded Masonic history and compare it to the historical myths about us, much blame to these myths comes from Freemasons themselves, but points out in the end that early Masonry never spoke of Templary or some Egyptian theme, and it wasn't until Ramsey's Oration that anything connected Freemasonry to anything else other than what it claimed in the beginning. He's quite an author if you have a chance to read his books.

The Catholic Church is not conspiring with the Masons for world control nor does the obelisk appear anywhere in Masonry as far as I understand our symbols.



posted on Aug, 6 2011 @ 08:30 AM
link   

Originally posted by FortAnthem
The idea that obelisks are a masonic symbol is widespread in many conspiratorial circles.
Yes, but wouldn't you agree that the number of insane conspiracy theories outnumbers the plausible ones by a factor of a thousand or more?



posted on Aug, 6 2011 @ 10:09 AM
link   
I think a lot of people confuse pillars with obelisks when it comes to Freemasonry.
Pillars have tons of symbolism in Freemasonry. Obelisks do not.


Originally posted by Cobaltic1978

As the Masons base their whole philosophy on the building of the pyramids, and as the Pyramids were built by Egyptians, what do you reckon?


This is not correct. Masonic ritual centers around the building of the Temple in Jerusalem by King Solomon.


Originally posted by FortAnthem

These would also symbolize Boaz and Jachin, the twin pillars which Masons claim were built in front of Soloman's Temple, in 'imitation of two obelisks at the entrance of Egyptian temples'.[9.] These are mentioned even in the Book of the Dead, the texts which every well-heeled Ancient Egyptian had placed in his tomb to make sure he was resurrected in the Kingdom of Osiris: 'Two pillars at the gateway to his house were Set and Horus.


Believe me - if the Masons had wanted the two pillars to allude to, or even imitate, Set and Horus, they would have called them Set and Horus.



posted on Aug, 6 2011 @ 11:04 AM
link   

Originally posted by Fitzgibbon

Originally posted by FortAnthem
reply to post by KSigMason
 


Freemasonry watch


Sourcing Freemasonrywatch as a source about Masonry is about as off as sourcing Jack Chick comics. Both proudly grind axes, not the sort of source you want if you don't want to smear yourself with their same laughable biases.


My intention in citing Freemasonry watch was to answer KSigMason's question about who believed that obelisks were Masonic symbols. I did not present them as a reliable source, just one that believes in the Masonic obelisk theory.

The idea that the obelisk is Masonic is highly debatable. Even the Mason members here can't cite its meaning to Masonry.

I have been able to find sites that claim that the obelisk is a Masonic symbol and others that claim that it is not. The funny thing is; both sites use the exact same picture to prove their point.


It seems to me that the obelisk is a symbol that is used by all faiths and that, when used by the Mason's, it is accompanied by other Masonic symbols to identify it as marking a Mason's grave-site or for whatever reason. I don't believe that the obelisk is, by itself, a Masonic symbol.


edit on 8/6/11 by FortAnthem because:



posted on Aug, 6 2011 @ 11:11 AM
link   
In what year was the obelisk placed?



posted on Aug, 6 2011 @ 11:13 AM
link   
Found a vid what start with the obelisk. First in London the the one in Vatican

Hey maybe that why we say Amen, after this Amen Ra. The obelisks are everywhere around the world. Even in North Korea
edit on 6-8-2011 by TribeOfManyColours because: (no reason given)



posted on Aug, 6 2011 @ 11:13 AM
link   

Originally posted by TribeOfManyColours
In what year was the obelisk placed?


That was mentioned in the OP:


The date was September 10, 1586. Multitudes crowded the extensive square. While the obelisk was being moved, the crowd, upon penalty of death, was required to remain silent. But after the obelisk was successfully erected, there was the sound of hundreds of bells ringing, the roar of cannons and the loud cheer of the multitude.



posted on Aug, 6 2011 @ 11:17 AM
link   
reply to post by FortAnthem
 


thanks.



posted on Aug, 6 2011 @ 11:37 AM
link   
reply to post by FortAnthem
 

Pillars in Freemasonry are symbols of support (not phallic). Pillars make an appearance in all 3 Craft degrees, but nowhere does the obelisk appear. It has no meaning in Masonry.

Your first source is an anti-Masonic website the other is a Masonic website.



posted on Aug, 6 2011 @ 11:52 AM
link   

Originally posted by KSigMason
reply to post by FortAnthem
 


Your first source is an anti-Masonic website the other is a Masonic website.


I thought it was funny how they both used the exact same pic to come to opposite conclusions.

Me, I would trust the Masonic site more when it comes to the interpretation of Masonic symbols. The "secrets of the craft" can be found everywhere nowadays in books and on the internet. Makes me wonder why they even still call it a "secret society".


I guess what is discussed within the meetings is still secret but, all of the esoteric knowledge they are supposed to hold has been disclosed for the world to see for some time now.

Since all those Masonic secrets are out there for the world to see, it makes sense to go to a Masonic source to find out the meanings of Masonic symbols. Its not like they have anything to hide on that front anymore...
edit on 8/6/11 by FortAnthem because:



posted on Aug, 6 2011 @ 03:04 PM
link   

Originally posted by KSigMason
I know some Catholics who are Masons. One is only excommunicated if found out.


There are several members of my lodge who are also in the Knights of Columbus. Their monsignor is aware of their dual affiliation and they have not been excommunicated. As a matter of fact, we have a joint picnic/fundraiser with them every year and get a huge turnout.





new topics
top topics
 
6
<<   2  3  4 >>

log in

join