When is life not worth living anymore?

reply to post by relpobre000

How could someone stand to call him a selfish coward? The real selfish people are those that would have seen him lie in bed until he had absolutely no faculties left. And cowardice? He stood (figuratively) staring at the gaping maw of mortality and did not shy away. We should all be so brave. edit on 9-8-2011 by relpobre000 because: cured Wall-of-text syndrome

I watched an Uncle and a dear friend/pastor die of lung cancer. Was there for both of them when they took their last breath. I watched my step son die of Leukemia and that was a much more painful death he experienced. Death is like birth....it is indeed an experience. If shared....its a shared experience. To look at the face of death with courage is one thing....when you fear it it is another IMO.

When I said cowardly and selfish....it is not meant to be taken around the block to something else it was not intended for. Those attributes in my opinion are fear based. Why die with fear when you do not have to.....

Then you may say...what about someone who is raped and killed....how do they die without fear? Its knowing TRUTH and LOVE and not worrying about anything else.....just knowing that your pain is almost over....many say that they have seen themselves hovering over the body in times as this. Many say they felt every second of it. This is an experience we must have for a souls lesson....one which we come here to EXPERIENCE. To perfect in.

Its seems that faith in the love of creation and our true wonderful mystical sense is humanized so much in this thread.

This is a human experience but one that is made with the Spirit. There is nothing coincidental.

Maybe you think it suicide admirable from your stand point. We will ALL never agree on everything and this is one of those times.

It matters where you have been and where you are going in this journey....I believe.

We base almost everything we think and feel on experience.

My experience with life's trials, tribulations, and pain has lead me to believe.....

Face life without fear (it is the opposite of love and its attributes are many...like hate, jealousy, and ego for starters)....

Face life with LOVE in all you do and all you say. What if we all practiced that daily in our lives? What world will we then have created?

Originally posted by LifeIsEnergy
reply to post by MamaJ

 

I have to agree with Mister_Bit here. I don't think it is fair for you to say you've felt their pain and know what they went through yet you chose to continue "fighting", that doesn't sound very compassionate at all. I also don't think it is very compassionate or helpful to say you forgive them for putting you and your family through pain. This also sounds very selfish. It is your decision to hold onto images of someone who is no longer with you, who chose to end their life because they were unhappy with how it was. People who are suffering extremely like this don't want you to tell them how to live or how to be strong like you, in fact that may be the reason they are so depressed in the first place, they only want someone to understand them and not judge them for feeling the way they do. Maybe that is why psychotherapy has failed so many of these kids.

Peace.

Its seems as if you.... like many are missing the entire point.

It is not my decision to hold onto images....first off. Its in my memory bank and I CHOSE to shun them when they come in....just as I shun negativity and darkness when it comes in. Changing your way of thinking can lead to a healthier and more productive life. Changing your fear based mind set to one of love can also lead to a healthier and more abundant life....even one that has pain.

What I say....coward.....and selfish.....hits people like a sword. WHY? Its because fear sets in that maybe I am right?? It could be that your/their experience have lead them to that belief.... don't know.

Here is a challenge.

I AM............. FEAR!!!!!!! (The opposite of love,negative energy, darkness and has many attributes such as ego, hate, and jealousy)

I AM .............LOVE!!!!!!! (The light, the positive energy, only reflects light and is opposite to darkness)

Which one are you?

Which (I AM) are you .....do you portray fear with everything you do and say ....

or.......

do you portray LOVE with everything you do and say?

To suggest that I am detached emotionally....ahhhh...my friend.....you are wrong.

To lend a hand and say EMAIL ME AND I WILL HELP YOU AND BE THE BURDEN is ME giving of myself to help others with this thread. You have focused on (fear with ) my post instead of offering a hand to help those on here in need...(love)

To ask the suffering to come out of self...the pity of the self...and say think of others....this is an attribute of LOVE. To be only mindful of self...is selfish. I can't call it any other way. Its out of love that I say....live without fear. When each of us die....we have energy that continues on as Spirit......

Which one are you???

Fear?

Love?

There is no middle ground.

This is where my experience of life has lead me and I would not know LOVE had I killed myself when I thought life was not worth living anymore.

I am able to come on this thread and share the many deaths I have seen, the pain I have felt, and the love that was shown to me through those experiences and say.....

I AM .........LOVE!

Peace and love to you all!!!! xoxoxoxoxox


Jenn

And I have to add.....while it is a CHOICE for the individual.....Does it convey LOVE?

This is where I do not find love in the act of suicide. What if we all come here to experience the hell.....the pain and suffering only to give in to lost hope and fear?

WHAT IF when we do this act.....we have to come back and start all over to get it "right" this time?

I would love to see a world where we all conveyed love to one another and did not give in to a fear based mind set.

This is where I think we differ....most of us on this thread anyway.

It is so easy to cast blame and hate for others words and acts....it is easy to not focus on the light and see the darkness.

i do not judge the individual....that is not for me. My opinion is the act is a selfish one. I do not need anyone to hold on to life FOR ME. I have breath...I do not need someone elses.

I am striving for a new world to live in and the darkness (as in this thread) hinders progress and it drains the positive energy that I and many others are contributing to. WE WANT LOVE to abound.....we WANT darkness placed where it should be..in the dark...hidden.

What if today we began a new mind set?

What if today you really thought twice about what you say and what you do....and thought.....does this convey who I ...really....AM?

AM I going to put out words of love... or fear?

WHAT IF WE ALL LIVED LIKE THIS? What a wonderful world this would be. It would be like a "HEAVEN".

No one would think suicide is an answer any longer...no wars...no crime....no murders.....no jealousy....no ego trips.......no hate.....NO FEAR.......nothing BUT LOVE

reply to post by MamaJ


Well it is obvious that you are very passionate about this subject, and maybe that is clouding your ability to listen to and relate with others in this thread, or maybe not.

You said: "What I say....coward.....and selfish.....hits people like a sword. WHY? Its because fear sets in that maybe I am right?? It could be that your/their experience have lead them to that belief.... don't know."

I think to admit you don't know is correct. But more than that, I think you show a real lack of compassion by judging others in this way, especially to liken it to hitting them with a "sword". How can you say you "love" people yet judge them so harshly? How can you say you "love" someone yet call them a "coward" and "selfish"? What is your definition of "love"? It sounds like a very terrible thing!

You asked: Who are you? Love or Hate? Light or Darkness?

Well you might not like this answer, but it is an honest one. I am both and neither. On a mundane level, on an egoic level, I am both. But when I look deep within myself, when I let go of my fear and my ego, there is nothing but emptiness. The world is not as black and white as you may want to make it. In fact, I have a feeling that the more you try to hold on to this idea that you MUST ONLY BE LOVE, the more HATE you accumulate within yourself.

I can see you really want to help others, and that is a noble thing, but it may be better to first help yourself. If you yourself have not conquered hate, and even a hatred for hate is hate, then how can you possibly help anyone else to do so? To be honest, it seems your desire to want to help others is more of a desire to experiment your belief systems on other people to see if they work or not. If this is true, then not only are you potentially damaging the very same people you seek to help, but you are simply running away from your own problems. Problems like not being able to let go of painful images in your mind. Problems like blaming everyone else for your suffering. You are the only one who can overcome these problems, just as the people you want to help are the only ones who can overcome their problems. And until you accept this as reality, you will only be doing more damage than good, which would really suck in your case since you want so badly to do good for this world.

Peace friend.

reply to post by LifeIsEnergy

If you yourself have not conquered hate, and even a hatred for hate is hate, then how can you possibly help anyone else to do so? To be honest, it seems your desire to want to help others is more of a desire to experiment your belief systems on other people to see if they work or not. If this is true, then not only are you potentially damaging the very same people you seek to help, but you are simply running away from your own problems. Problems like not being able to let go of painful images in your mind. Problems like blaming everyone else for your suffering. You are the only one who can overcome these problems, just as the people you want to help are the only ones who can overcome their problems. And until you accept this as reality, you will only be doing more damage than good, which would really suck in your case since you want so badly to do good for this world.

Bless your heart.....No offense but you are reading into my words something that is not there. Its the mere opposite. Please re read ALL of my posts and maybe then you may pass a "judgement" on my character and belief system. You are just soooooo far off its not funny. Please...no offense but you may be better off focusing on someone else. Someone who may need you within this thread. Just i case you didn't know....I am not suicidal.

You just do not get it my friend....and thats ok. I simply am saddened you are lead by your emptiness of ego and one day maybe you can focus your energy on ones in need instead of someones words you do not understand.

This journey of yours is a different path.... I do however wish you all the hope and love on your journey.

This thread is a draining one. I have said my opinion. I have said that I am here for anyone in need...all they have to do is email me and I will help them carry their burden.

AND GUESS WHAT.....I have received emails from the ones in need and this is where my energy is right now. Its in need and I am there my friend..with open arms and an open heart.

You think what you may and by all means analyze my every word if you want. You do not change who I AM.

But you have the power to change your I AM. In the end....that is all we have. We have the power to change our way of thinking.

If I did it ....I know you can too.




Peace and love to you and yours!!!!! xoxoxo

Jenn

reply to post by MamaJ


Come on you guys there is no right and wrong there is just experience. Leave it be we can agree to disagree, but we can all agree suicide is a bad thing, for all involved.

reply to post by dl2one


Thats what I have BEEN saying! Its all good...I am leaving this thread for good. I will leave with saying to all who are suicidal....

I AM HERE FOR YOU....PLEASE message me and we will go through this together!

Peace and love to you ALL!!! xoxoox

Jenn

I honestly don't think some of you have used your imaginations fully, or read some of the stories here. If you did, you'd realise things don't always turn out happily ever after. Some times, people die miserably. Sometimes they can be helped and other times they can't, at least not during this lifetime.

As much as you'd love to "be there" for some of these people...what are you going to do? You talk about "going through this together", but the fact is, YOU ARE NOT going through that with them, you are only a witness. Sure, you can provide support, and that may bring some level of happiness, but is it enough to end their pain? Sometimes no, it's not enough. Yes, they are thankful for your support, but be real here...support doesn't make pain go away, unless the cause of the pain is a lack of support. But that isn't always the cause of the pain, and holding their hands, telling them you love them and that they are strong does not take their pain away from them, it sometimes adds to the pain. You want them to be what you are, but face this and face it well; you are NOT them and they are not you! People judge others by their own standards, but understand that you aren't the same person. You think differently, feel differently and behave differently. There are some people here who unfortunately are destined to suffer until they die(usually health related). How are you going to help these people's pain? What can you do when our medical science is not advanced enough to help them at all? The meds barely take the pain away, and leaves them drowsy and weaker. They've tried herbal treatments, unconventional practices...and nothing has worked. They remain alive, but their bodies are lifeless and the only reminder that they are alive is constant pain, unbearable pain, every minute of every waking day. Please, tell me how you are going to help these people? By praying for them? Fine, pray for them, but do not expect them to stay here and suffer on your behalf. And I'd like you to try to help everyone...you can't! You're one person, with your own life, own family, with your own problems, with 24 hours to execute thoughts and ideas from the moment you sleep to the moment you wake. You're human, you're no God! It is ludicrous to ask these people to remain here and suffer...because that's all they're going to do. Sometimes that's all that's left; realise that.

Okay, yes you've gone through your problems too and you've overcome them, so why can't they, right? Well...for starters, you may have gone through hardships, but not always the same hardships other people have went through. Being homeless can be helped or changed. Being without a job can be helped and changed. Being friendless can be helped and changed. Being an addict can be helped and changed. Being blind can be helped, not changed, but a happy life is still very possible. Being obese can be helped and changed. Being stressed academically can be helped and changed. Being in a bull# job can be helped and changed. Being paralysed and in constant pain, with no ability to work or properly function in this world because of your ailment and the meds, with no one in your life, and no physical ability to meet new people...yeah, it don't look so colourful and rosie now. Overcome that! Sit there and push through it; I'd love to see you torture yourself trying! Even if you've gone through things people have already gone through and you overcame it, you must remember, you are not them. People experience things differently.

In no way am I advocating that people commit suicide all willy nilly at the first sign of trouble, because many people can be helped with some care and patience. So by all means, help those that you think can be helped, and encourage people to push on, but to think that we are capable of helping everyone overcome their problems is stupid. It is foolishly idealistic to think that you have all the possible solutions for all the possible problems. Sometimes, the answer is years away beyond life expectancy; especially when it comes to medical science.

I know of a young convict who was on death row in Trinidad (the death penalty has been discontinued, but death row still exists - so you're in there 'til you rot away basically), and he was constantly taken advantage of, sexually and otherwise. He had little family who actually cared of his standard of living in prison, but not enough to riot or demand that certain changes be made. The government sure as hell didn't care about him, nor did the other inmates, or prison officers. He was very religious for most of his life, even while in prison and eventually gave up on that. He was mistreated constantly, and a few times had to be rushed to the hospital because of severe injury due to beatings. How are you going to help him?

FACT: You can't! The only thing you can do for him is lend an ear of support, but does that solve his problem? He took his own life a few years ago. Is he weak and cowardly too?

reply to post by MamaJ


Hey, its all good. I only commented on what I have read and unless your message switched up between posts than I don't think I will go back and read them all. Sorry. But from the jest of things, what I read is that you really LOVE people and want to help them, yet feel people who commit suicide are just cowards, weak and selfish.

To be completely honest, and this will probably cause bad karma for myself by saying this, but you would be one of the last people I would seek out for help if I truly needed it.

A lot of people tell you "I WILL BE HERE WHENEVER YOU NEED ME" yet they aren't necessarily the best people to turn to for advice. Even pimps, drug dealers, abusive parents and corrupt politicians say things like this, so it really holds no weight in my book. The people I turn to for guidance and help are the people who have actually overcome the problems I am facing, and still it is all relative. But as you said, your not going to listen to anyone's advice anyways, so why bother trying to converse with you further.

Peace.

reply to post by davespanners


I attempted suicide when I was 14, because I felt like noone cared about me, and I couldn't handle the challenges life was presenting me with at the time. Luckily, I failed at that. Then I spent 5 months in a mental hospital and found, through talking with other patients, that I have a gift and a calling to help other people with emotional and psychological problems. I knew then that my one focus in life should be to become a psychologist. This realization gave me hope. I tried going to college after high school to fulfill that dream, but had to leave after only one semester because I couldn't afford the classes. Feeling like my dream would be out of reach for me I decided that I would have to be happy just to exist and survive and forget my dream. I felt that maybe I'm just a person who isn't destined to have happiness or fulfillment in life, so I got a job and spent the next 18 years working in retail. I was mildly successful at this type of work, but never felt rewarded or fufilled. I felt like what I was doing was not helping humanity at all, but it was what I had to do. Then last year a lot of bad things started happening to me, and life started to get really bad. I had a nervous breakdown at work and got to a point where I would snap and lose control of myself, screaming, crying, destroying things, etc. I wanted to commit suicide again. I was actively looking for ways to do it. Then I had a thought, and it resonated inside me like the universe was sending me this thought, or like God was speaking directly to me. The thought was that I knew what my calling was supposed to be, and I had gone off track, and that nothing had been going right with my life for the last 18 years because I wasn't doing what I was supposed to be doing. So I quit my job, and enrolled in college again. Still not knowing how I would pay for it, because I didn't qualify for financial aid, I decided that somehow, it had to work out. There is no other choice. Now I'm in my third semester back in college, paying for it all with student loans but feeling like I'm back on some kind of plan to get where I am supposed to be. The deal I made with myself was that I would follow my dream, and I will do whatever I have to do to make it a reality. If, in the end, I've found myself scratching and clawing and getting nowhere, then perhaps that would be the time to end things for good, but now I don't see that happening. I have hope again.

Originally posted by davespanners
This is a question that plays on my mind every so often I should preface the question by saying that I'm not contemplating suicide or anything like that, just posing a question.

What I would like to know is, what for you would make life not worth carrying on with anymore?

Can you ever imagine a point where you would consider suicide as an option, or do you believe that it is never an option however bad life is?

Have you ever been at the point of considering ending your life and if so what made you decide not to go through with it, fear if the unknown, thinking of the people you would leave behind?

Would religion play any part in you making a decision like that and if so, how?

Personally I have been at points in my where I have considered suicide but I have never really been close to going through with it, although I think I could imagine a point, maybe through severe physical or mental disability that I would, things like severe Alzheimer's for example, not being able to remember my own name or family.

I hope this isn't too depressing a question, I know it can be a pretty taboo subject and one that people get very nervous talking about and I don't really know what I hope to gain from asking the question, apart from maybe some perspective on how other people think.

When you believe so.

I'm not scared of dieing, I'm scared of living... i want a restart on this round.

I can't remember exactly when i lost my reason for living... or i have not found it yet but either way
The only reason i am still around is because i have first hand experience of how much pain suicides cause to thous that love the person and i do not want my family going through that again

reply to post by MamaJ

I AM HERE FOR YOU....PLEASE message me and we will go through this together!

I find it ironic that you use the big happy smiling face (it doesn't pick up on copy and paste) when you talk about helping suicidal people. It reeks of ego to me..

Just another thought..why would anyone considering suicide go get support from someone who would just call them selfish and pathetic , if they should break totally down and get to that point.

You'd be the last person I'd go to for help... or understanding

I'd like to talk about the issue of suicide being inherently "selfish."

By stating that suicide is an inherently selfish act, one also makes some claims about the mental state of the suicidal individual. One must believe that such an individual still possesses the ability to make a reasoned choice to end his own life in spite of the fact that he possesses knowledge of what that act will do to other people. This is not, in fact, generally the case. Most people possess a strong instinct toward self-preservation. Even suicidal people still tend to possess this instinct. One of the reasons that suicides fail so often is that one must exert a truly Herculean effort to overcome this instinct.

Is reason ever sufficient to overcome this primal self-preservation instinct? Can one form a coherent and valid argument that demonstrates that suicide is the best logical choice? Probably not, but I would be willing to admit that, in some cases, it may be possible. Let's suggest, then, that one has actually come up with a perfectly logical justification for suicide. One has accepted that, in spite of the "inherent selfishness" of the act, suicide is still the best option. What then?

There is likely a disconnect between reason and action. Coming to the conclusion that suicide is a good option is not at all the same as slashing one's wrists. The act requires not just reason but also a strong will or emotional drive. The reason has no efficacy in and of itself; at best it serves as rationality or intellectual justification for the act. How many of you, presented with a thorough argument suggesting that you should kill yourselves, would do so without a corresponding emotional drive?

To summarize these points, I believe that a reasoned decision is required for suicide to be truly "selfish." I also believe that suicide is rarely a "reasoned decision."

To answer another part of this thread's question: I have been in a state that I would describe as "suicidal" at one point in my life. Looking back, I see the whole affair as "me being an angsty little pile of scum." But I can also remember what it felt like. I didn't think "oh, my life is hard, I'm gonna kill myself because, well, my life is hard. Sure, this will hurt a lot of people, but it will make things better for me!" In fact, I didn't think much at all. My emotional state did not permit much logical thought. My "reason" was walking on the edge of a razor between an inferno and a blizzard, and maintaining something resembling a "balance" was just about the only thing that my reasoning self was capable of. If I had acted to take my own life, it would have been an act almost entirely devoid of reason. My "will" or "emotional drive" or whatever was almost entirely in charge at that point.

So, while I can understand why someone could say that suicide is a "selfish" act, I must insist that, before making such a statement, one examines its further implications. The emotional state of a severely depressed individual--the type of individual most likely to be suicidal, in my experience--may be likened to a runaway train, and reason is merely a passenger on that train. A runaway train does not have the capacity for selfishness.

reply to post by MamaJ


My cousin done something similar at age 21

was going out with a girl and it ended.

Exactly one year later he took himself on to a beach near Nelson New Zealand, drank a bottle of champagne and
the proceeded to shoot himself in the head with a .22 rifle.

His family were/are devastated .

i say loser.
what was wrong with getting on with it and getting a new girl.

and was he trying to punish the girl ?

reply to post by rigel4


In the spirit of my previous post, I must challenge your assessment of the situation and your labeling your cousin a "loser."

Are most entirely reasonable and sane people (as much as anyone is entirely reasonable and sane) able to get over broken relationships eventually? Yes.

So this leaves two main possibilities. Either your cousin was simply a spiteful, immature, and selfish person who decided that his loss was so great that, in spite of all of the pain he would cause other people, he needed to end his own life because of the manifold benefits of such an act, or he committed an act devoid of reason and driven by emotional turbulence likely rooted in some deep-seated preexisting emotional issues.

I, for one, find it very difficult to believe the former--I explain this in my original post (two posts earlier, I think?).

So that leaves the latter option. It seems likely to me that, as most suicidal people, he ended his life because he was simply unable to deal with the emotional maelstrom. I particularly do not hold with the idea that some misguided attempt at "punishment" was involved. To reap the fruits of a punitive act, he would need to be around after the act. Reason would tell anyone that that is simply not possible through suicide. It seems likely, then, that, even if punishment entered his mind, it was an emotional impulse that drove him to the act. This is, of course, unless he had a firm conviction that this woman deserved punishment on some objective level and that it was his divine duty to administer it by ending his life. If this is the case, I think we can be certain that he suffered from some mental condition that again prevented a completely reasoned decision.

This should be comforting. Really think about suicide, and it's hard to see it as a reasoned and malicious act. He wasn't trying to hurt anyone and he wasn't purely selfish. He was just overwhelmed, and it's a damned shame that it had to end as it did.

Everyone has a breaking point, when your ability to deal with whatever pain or grief is not sufficient enough to continue living, a point of no return. Those of you that believe you would never commit suicide have simply not reached that threshold, some people can take remarkable amounts of pain or mental anguish and keep going and some cant. I dont condone suicide in most cases but I also wont judge those who chose it.