Do you have a relationship with the creator of the universe?

Originally posted by Hydroman

Originally posted by AQuestion

It is MY belief, that if this god is real, that everyone should receive eternal life. I think it is RIDICULOUS that anyone should have to be tortured FOREVER because of what they did in this SHORT earthly life, especially as we live in this flesh body.

edit on 5-8-2011 by Hydroman because: (no reason given)

You truely didn't get the meaning of the Bible in your 20 years did you?

We were made in the image of GOD. This means that we have a spirit that exists for eternity. It CANNOT be destroyed.
Where our spirit spends eternity is our choice. We decide that choice when we are here on earth living in the flesh.
The flesh dies because of sin. ie disobedience to GOD.
GOD came to earth IN THE FLESH (as we are) to destroy sin for us so that we DON"T HAVE to spend eternity being tortured forever (as you put it).

Now as we have spirits that eternally exist, there needs to be an eternal system that seperates the good from the bad - much like the laws of earth. If you do a crime, then you go to prison.
Same laws that GOD has set up. If you do a crime (sin) you go to prison (seperation from GOD).

How terrible would it be if evil existed for ever in heaven. It would be just like here on earth. Only forever !

reply to post by Hydroman


As long as there is a belief....one is on the right track.

Energy....dive deeper into your knowledge of it. Seek the Spirit of God when you read any texts. See if the Spirit of Truth is connecting with your own.

Positive and Negative energies..... The mover you described....and the one that stores.... think on this one please how it may pertain to God.

There is a place for positive energy and negative. Neither is a state that lasts....we are ever changing. Hell to me is a temporary state...as is any state. We are always moving from one realm to the other. Hell though is one we call the Master on. We believe..call his name...he comes to take you toward the light only to be a positive energy willing and ready to believe in it/him. Some spirits have progressed more as they have not only come here to this plane to learn faster but also because they are constantly seeking and pouring out the Love of the Spirit to others. Does it make sense now?

Originally posted by AQuestion
All you are doing is repeating the bad religion you were taught and misreading the bible as the fundamentalists do. That is what you are doing. It says that there is only one sin that cannot be forgiven, you recite way too many, more than one. You misunderstand sin, salvation and God. You misunderstand the purpose of life, it is not club med and believers get the hard way, not the easy.

Fair enough. Those verses seem pretty clear to me, but yes I could be misinterpreting them. The fact is, I just don't see it the way you do. Sorry.

Originally posted by AQuestion
Do you not know the story of the thief who was on a cross next to Jesus and was told he would see his salvation and be saved? Why do you insist on not seeing the good word and focus on sin? All sin and all can be saved, that is what the bible says.

Yes I know the story. The thief believed that Jesus was who he said he was. That's how he got saved. He asked Jesus to remember him when he returned to his kingdom. Again, I never said that all sin can not be saved. It is you saying that I said that. I was only reading from the bible.

Originally posted by AQuestion
You referred to God as Santa Clause because that was how you viewed him, someone who if you perform a ritual for and ask nicely will give you the result you want and it doesn't work like that.

No, my analogy to Santa had nothing to do with asking something from him. It had to do with believing in him though I've never seen him, yet there are stories and songs about him, just like god.

Originally posted by AQuestion
His son let him know that he was ready, he couldn't stand to see the toll that it took on his parents and family any longer.

That is sad. I hate to see anyone suffer like that. It is life though. My christian grandfather did something similar. He said that the Lord told him it was his time to go. All the family were called in to see him pass on, and it was emotional. That was 3 years ago and he's still alive today.

Originally posted by AQuestion
Now you could tell my friend that it was all in his mind, I would not be happy with you if you did; but, you can certainly believe such a thing. You have anger because you did not have one of these experiences and ridicule those who did. Your faith was weak because your understanding is not solid rock. If God were the way your perceive him than there would be no hope; but, fortunately you are wrong, God is not Santa Clause or a giant babysitter.

That's fine friend. I would like to have an experience like that though, yes.

Originally posted by AQuestion
You mentioned that it says that if we pray to him we will get what we want; but, that is the most silly reading of the bible. You cannot reconcile it with the rest of it. Firstly, for your prayers to be answered as you wish, you have to be of a heart like Jesus and you were not and works don't make it so, it has to be from the heart.

If I didn't pray from my heart, and others didn't pray from their hearts, I guess we'll never be able to. You may have to explain "praying from the heart" just so I can make sure that I did not do it.

Originally posted by AQuestion
If you have a heart like Jesus, if you want what is best then you have to accept that he knows what is best. You should pray for what is best, not what results you want.

The verses I posted say nothing about praying for what's best. Sorry. That's just your thought on the matter, which is a good thought btw.

Originally posted by AQuestion
For all works towards his plan. Do you think that if I get together with three people who believed as you did that if we prayed for my ex to be struck with cancer that he would do so just because we performed the ritual you described.

I don't know, that's a good question. Now, there were those who did pray for the death of people. Elisha called out two bears to kill 42 young men, Samson prayed for strength so he could kill all those in attendance, there was Ananias and Sapphira who died when the disciples showed that they lied about their funds, so it doesn't seem to be outside the realm of possibility.

Originally posted by AQuestion
You mentioned how you believed we received salvation by doing a little ritual of knowing the name, believing he lived and died for our sins and whatever.

I've never said that believing in a name saves you. You keep saying that I said that, but it's not true. I said believing in the person who was Jesus. John 3:16 "For god so loved the world that he gave his only begotten son, that whosoever believes in him will not perish but have everlasting life." Seems pretty simple to me.

Originally posted by Hydroman
In my own "christian walk" of 20 years or so, I believed that I had a personal relationship with the creator of the universe. As a non-believer now, I can see that I was wrong.

Did you prayer life stop during the end of your Christian walk?

Originally posted by 1king2rulethemall

You truely didn't get the meaning of the Bible in your 20 years did you?

Probably not.

Originally posted by 1king2rulethemall
We were made in the image of GOD. This means that we have a spirit that exists for eternity. It CANNOT be destroyed.

Can't be destroyed? Matthew 10:28 "Do not be afraid of those who kill the body but cannot kill the soul. Rather, be afraid of the One who can destroy both soul and body in hell."

Originally posted by 1king2rulethemall
Where our spirit spends eternity is our choice. We decide that choice when we are here on earth living in the flesh.

So those who never heard of Jesus, or the gospel had a choice? How?

Originally posted by 1king2rulethemall
GOD came to earth IN THE FLESH (as we are) to destroy sin for us so that we DON"T HAVE to spend eternity being tortured forever (as you put it).

An all powerful being couldn't destroy sin from heaven? He had to come here? I don't get it.

Originally posted by 1king2rulethemall
Now as we have spirits that eternally exist, there needs to be an eternal system that seperates the good from the bad - much like the laws of earth. If you do a crime, then you go to prison.
Same laws that GOD has set up. If you do a crime (sin) you go to prison (seperation from GOD).

Sure, you go to prison on earth. But, you don't get tortured in fire forever. Sometimes, guess what, you even get to get out of prison when your sentence is over.

Originally posted by 1king2rulethemall
How terrible would it be if evil existed for ever in heaven. It would be just like here on earth. Only forever !

Don't you believe that our flesh is what's evil? When you're dead, you're no longer in the flesh, you're spirit, or so I learned. That means you don't have that icky, lust-hungering thing on you anymore. You're free. Why would you still be evil without the flesh? But then on the other side of the coin you believe that evil can't exist in heaven. It's strange that angels were able to rebel from god...if evil can't exist in heaven. It is also strange that Satan can meet with god in heaven, as in the story of Job, if evil can't exist there.....

Originally posted by texastig

Did you prayer life stop during the end of your Christian walk?

Yes for the most part. There have been times where I've called out to the god I used to believe in, but nothing.

reply to post by Hydroman


Dear Hydroman,

Actually I correctly read the bible, you do not because you were not shown the truth. There is plenty of bad teaching out there that leads people to believe as you do, you are right to condemn it; but, understand it is bad teaching not correct teaching.

I do in fact think I know what you are experiencing. Why as atheist do you visit the spiritual threads when you do not believe? You are afraid to believe in a loving God, you are afraid to really know him while you attempt to blackmail him into talking to you. You want him to prove himself to you or you won't believe. Don't believe, that is your choice. Knowing God is to have a relationship, why do you seek a relationship where the other person must have it on your terms?

You will know him soon enough; but, not on your terms. You know your bible well enough to know that things are not right in the world and that something wicked this way comes. That is why you follow the spiritual threads, time is running out to set the terms of your relationship with God and you know it. When I was an agnostic, I didn't talk to Christians about God, I didn't care what they thought. I preferred to talk to occultists to know how they could believe what they did, at least that was interesting.

How bout you try this if you really want to know him. How bout you tell him that you are willing to know him on his terms, in his time and as he sees fit. No ritual, no need for you to do anything other than accept his terms. And don't be like Jonah if he does show up, "break a deal face the wheel" as it says in Mad Max Beyond Thunderdome.

Perhaps I am wrong about your motivation for following these threads and putting so much effort into them, I have also had some long threads and know what effort it is. You could do this because you have such a strong need to ridicule believers because you have a hateful heart; but, that doesn't usually last to long, we get over anger. You could be doing it because you really want the answer, be careful, you might get it. Why else would you follow these threads, why ask for proof that you will not accept, you will only accept a personal experience and you have said you don't believe in those. I can only accept something that I don't believe in. That is just your way of trying to apply pressure on God. That is not biblical and it is not right.

Originally posted by Hydroman

Originally posted by 1king2rulethemall
Where our spirit spends eternity is our choice. We decide that choice when we are here on earth living in the flesh.

So those who never heard of Jesus, or the gospel had a choice? How?

I've wondered about that myself. Was my first topic here. Apparently you get a free pass, at least that's the common answer. Make sense?

Originally posted by Balkan

Originally posted by Hydroman

Originally posted by 1king2rulethemall
Where our spirit spends eternity is our choice. We decide that choice when we are here on earth living in the flesh.

So those who never heard of Jesus, or the gospel had a choice? How?

I've wondered about that myself. Was my first topic here. Apparently you get a free pass, at least that's the common answer. Make sense?

Dear Balkan,

Yes, people who did not know the name of Jesus got saved. Moses and Enoch are the examples I use. Enoch was raptured up to be with God long before Jesus walked the earth or was born in human form. It is not about knowing a name it is about being of a like heart, a heart that loves ones neighbor as oneself. Be well and take care.

Originally posted by AQuestion
Actually I correctly read the bible, you do not because you were not shown the truth. There is plenty of bad teaching out there that leads people to believe as you do, you are right to condemn it; but, understand it is bad teaching not correct teaching.

Many people think they read the bible correctly. Many christians don't agree with each other. Again, there's over 30,000 denominations. So, why should I believe you, that you read it correctly?

Originally posted by AQuestion
I do in fact think I know what you are experiencing. Why as atheist do you visit the spiritual threads when you do not believe?

Because I search for truth. I should leave all doors open.

Originally posted by AQuestion
You are afraid to believe in a loving God, you are afraid to really know him while you attempt to blackmail him into talking to you. You want him to prove himself to you or you won't believe. Don't believe, that is your choice. Knowing God is to have a relationship, why do you seek a relationship where the other person must have it on your terms?

I want to have a relationship with something that is real. The kind of relationship you all describe is based on feelings. I can have the same relationship with a tree in my back yard. I don't want that. Understand? I want something real. How else do I explain that? A relationship is based on the terms of both people. Not just one.

Originally posted by AQuestion
You will know him soon enough; but, not on your terms. You know your bible well enough to know that things are not right in the world and that something wicked this way comes.

The world is no different today than it was 1000's of years ago, except for technological and knowledge advancements.

Originally posted by AQuestion
How bout you try this if you really want to know him. How bout you tell him that you are willing to know him on his terms, in his time and as he sees fit. No ritual, no need for you to do anything other than accept his terms. And don't be like Jonah if he does show up, "break a deal face the wheel" as it says in Mad Max Beyond Thunderdome.

How will I know what his terms are if he never says anything to me? Yet, it isn't a relationship if the terms come from one person. Try that with your wife. After all, you are the bride of christ, are you not? I mean, what is this god, a mafia boss, where you can only accept a contract under his terms? And if you don't accept it, he could torture you? Wait, it sounds exactly like that.

Originally posted by AQuestion
Perhaps I am wrong about your motivation for following these threads and putting so much effort into them, I have also had some long threads and know what effort it is. You could do this because you have such a strong need to ridicule believers because you have a hateful heart; but, that doesn't usually last to long, we get over anger. You could be doing it because you really want the answer, be careful, you might get it. Why else would you follow these threads, why ask for proof that you will not accept, you will only accept a personal experience and you have said you don't believe in those. I can only accept something that I don't believe in. That is just your way of trying to apply pressure on God. That is not biblical and it is not right.

My motivation is to find truth, to make people think, and to make me think.

Originally posted by AQuestion
Yes, people who did not know the name of Jesus got saved. Moses and Enoch are the examples I use. Enoch was raptured up to be with God long before Jesus walked the earth or was born in human form. It is not about knowing a name it is about being of a like heart, a heart that loves ones neighbor as oneself. Be well and take care.

So a hindu person, or a chinese person who has never heard the gospel is saved as long as they have the right heart? That would be awesome for them. Now I wish I never heard it.

reply to post by Hydroman


Dear Hydroman,

The world is the same is it? How amusing and how not true. It is not the same and I have long enough to see the difference, stuff ain't working right and people and the earth itself are acting differently. Heck even the atheists know it, they just look for different reasons why things have changed and we are seeing a "new normal".

You ask for proof of God. Start with your own sentience, you know that is real. Are you not self aware? Look at the universe, skip the bible for a moment go with what you do know is. You are real, you are the only thing that you can know is real, Descartes, "I think therefore I am". He was off a little as Helen Keller proved, I experience therefore I am. The fact that I experience means that there could be others that experience and it appears they also exist. Where does this capability to experience come from? Is it from rocks rubbing together that we call atoms? That doesn't make a lot of sense.

Do you not feel in your heart that there is sentience beyond you or do you need proof of that? Do you know that others have sentience or do you really believe that this is all some type of movie for your benefit? You know there is a greater sentience, everyone does, we can sense it, that we are not alone in the universe. The reason we are not crushed by loneliness is because we feel in our hearts that we are not alone.

I know a woman whose husband killed himself, a rather disturbing story. She told me that one day she was overwhelmed with painful thoughts, she dropped to her knees and begged the Lord to speak to her, she had reached her end, she told me he did and I believe her. Why do I believe her, I believe her because there was no reason to lie and no lying in her about this event. It was as real to her as it could be and saved her, helped her to heal and find joy again.

You said that you think it is unfair that God sets the ground rules while claiming that it would be unfair for you to set the rules. You are wrong, he knows more than you and knows what you can handle, therefore he must set the rules. You say you will do anything to know him; but, then you refuse to, you refuse to accept his rules and then you are surprised that he does not reveal himself. Pick.

Originally posted by Hydroman

Originally posted by AQuestion
Yes, people who did not know the name of Jesus got saved. Moses and Enoch are the examples I use. Enoch was raptured up to be with God long before Jesus walked the earth or was born in human form. It is not about knowing a name it is about being of a like heart, a heart that loves ones neighbor as oneself. Be well and take care.

So a hindu person, or a chinese person who has never heard the gospel is saved as long as they have the right heart? That would be awesome for them. Now I wish I never heard it.

edit on 5-8-2011 by Hydroman because: (no reason given)

Dear Hydroman,

Why do you wish to have never heard that all could be saved and that it is not about a name? You are so legalistic in your beliefs.

Originally posted by AQuestion

The world is the same is it? How amusing and how not true. It is not the same and I have long enough to see the difference, stuff ain't working right and people and the earth itself are acting differently. Heck even the atheists know it, they just look for different reasons why things have changed and we are seeing a "new normal".

Give me an example please.

Originally posted by AQuestion
You ask for proof of God. Start with your own sentience, you know that is real. Are you not self aware? Look at the universe, skip the bible for a moment go with what you do know is. You are real, you are the only thing that you can know is real, Descartes, "I think therefore I am". He was off a little as Helen Keller proved, I experience therefore I am. The fact that I experience means that there could be others that experience and it appears they also exist. Where does this capability to experience come from? Is it from rocks rubbing together that we call atoms? That doesn't make a lot of sense.

I am fine with saying "I don't know." I am not fine with making something up to believe in to make me feel better and have hope.

Originally posted by AQuestion
Do you not feel in your heart that there is sentience beyond you or do you need proof of that? Do you know that others have sentience or do you really believe that this is all some type of movie for your benefit? You know there is a greater sentience, everyone does, we can sense it, that we are not alone in the universe. The reason we are not crushed by loneliness is because we feel in our hearts that we are not alone.

I am not alone. I have a wonderful family, and friends.

Originally posted by AQuestion
I know a woman whose husband killed himself, a rather disturbing story. She told me that one day she was overwhelmed with painful thoughts, she dropped to her knees and begged the Lord to speak to her, she had reached her end, she told me he did and I believe her. Why do I believe her, I believe her because there was no reason to lie and no lying in her about this event. It was as real to her as it could be and saved her, helped her to heal and find joy again.

In my first post, I answered this. When you believe strongly that there is a being out there who cares for you, loves you, and wants to help you, it can bring strong emotions...just like it does with anyone of any type of belief in a deity. Do all the gods of all those belief systems help those people?

Originally posted by AQuestion
You said that you think it is unfair that God sets the ground rules while claiming that it would be unfair for you to set the rules. You are wrong, he knows more than you and knows what you can handle, therefore he must set the rules. You say you will do anything to know him; but, then you refuse to, you refuse to accept his rules and then you are surprised that he does not reveal himself. Pick.

Wait, I lived for him for years by his rules. I realize that it was just me, my own thoughts. It's strange that a man like Paul who didn't follow Jesus, was revealed to by Jesus himself. Seems like there are exceptions to the "rules".

Originally posted by AQuestion
Why do you wish to have never heard that all could be saved and that it is not about a name? You are so legalistic in your beliefs.

So answer the question with a yes or no. Those who know nothing about the gospel will be saved if they have the right heart?

reply to post by Hydroman


Dear Hydroman,

How nice you lived by his "rules". You were indeed raised in a fundamentalist tradition. You are more fundamentalist than most of the fundamentalists that I know and they are as wrong as you. Look, I have told you before, I don't care what you believe, believe whatever you want. I don't seek to bring you to Jesus, it is not my job. Exercise your free will and convince yourself of whatever you want, do what is right in your heart. Don't be afraid of punishment and don't be afraid of being wrong. Get over it. I told you, I don't go looking for doors to knock on and I don't believe in tricking people into becoming believers.

Make it simple on yourself, tell me what could possibly happen to be enough for you to know that God is real, what do you need him to do? Would you like him to talk to you one on one, then accept his terms. Pretty simple. Would you like to see his back or a part of him, accept his terms. What do you want when none of what you could experience would be sufficient? Do you not know what Jesus told some, he told them that he lived in a generation that wanted signs and that none would be given to them, he said this while doing miracles. I doubt very much you can understand that, it does seem to contradict itself; but, it doesn't and he knew what he meant.

Originally posted by Hydroman

Originally posted by AQuestion
Why do you wish to have never heard that all could be saved and that it is not about a name? You are so legalistic in your beliefs.

So answer the question with a yes or no. Those who know nothing about the gospel will be saved if they have the right heart?

edit on 5-8-2011 by Hydroman because: (no reason given)

Dear Hydroman,

Yep, that is what I believe, that people who do not know the gospel can still be saved just like Enoch was. It comes from the Old Testament, it says that none will be able to claim that they did know God because he is in everything even the stars. I also believe that it says that the gospel would be preached to the ends of the world and that once it had been, there would be a great falling away from the church. I believe that also and I believe and can see that it has begun, it has been taught throughout the world and people are now leaving the church. Bout time for many of them as they were never real believers and needed to be removed.

Originally posted by AQuestion
How nice you lived by his "rules". You were indeed raised in a fundamentalist tradition. You are more fundamentalist than most of the fundamentalists that I know and they are as wrong as you. Look, I have told you before, I don't care what you believe, believe whatever you want. I don't seek to bring you to Jesus, it is not my job. Exercise your free will and convince yourself of whatever you want, do what is right in your heart. Don't be afraid of punishment and don't be afraid of being wrong. Get over it. I told you, I don't go looking for doors to knock on and I don't believe in tricking people into becoming believers.

I am trying to do what is right in my heart. I'm not afraid of punishment. If I deserve something, I deserve it. I'm not afraid of being wrong. I very well could be. Who knows?

Originally posted by AQuestion
Make it simple on yourself, tell me what could possibly happen to be enough for you to know that God is real, what do you need him to do? Would you like him to talk to you one on one, then accept his terms. Pretty simple. Would you like to see his back or a part of him, accept his terms. What do you want when none of what you could experience would be sufficient? Do you not know what Jesus told some, he told them that he lived in a generation that wanted signs and that none would be given to them, he said this while doing miracles. I doubt very much you can understand that, it does seem to contradict itself; but, it doesn't and he knew what he meant.

Why do you need to know what it would take to convince me of his existence? If this god is real, he would know exactly what it would take. I may not even know myself what it would take, but this god would. Don't you think so?

reply to post by Hydroman


Dear Hydroman,

I don't need to know nor do I care, I was asking you to pick what it was for you. You said, "Why do you need to know what it would take to convince me of his existence? If this god is real, he would know exactly what it would take. I may not even know myself what it would take, but this god would. Don't you think so?". I do think he knows what you need and when you are ready he will do what he does. I have been saying that you just don't hear it because you are of a dual mind.

You say you will accept any terms and then say that he should not have any. You say you don't know what the terms should be and that he would and then you refuse to let him pick the terms. Pick, choose, whatever, I don't care, do whatever you believe is right.

Originally posted by AQuestion
Yep, that is what I believe, that people who do not know the gospel can still be saved just like Enoch was. It comes from the Old Testament, it says that none will be able to claim that they did know God because he is in everything even the stars.

That would be wonderful if that is true and it would make much more sense. At what point would they become saved? For example, at what point would a god-fearing muslim become saved, one who was raised in traditional islam and never heard the gospel? This means that the belief in Jesus and what he did isn't even necessary, which is great, because many people have never even heard of it. But, I wonder why the path to destruction is wide and many find it, while few find the narrow path?

Originally posted by AQuestion
I also believe that it says that the gospel would be preached to the ends of the world and that once it had been, there would be a great falling away from the church. I believe that also and I believe and can see that it has begun, it has been taught throughout the world and people are now leaving the church. Bout time for many of them as they were never real believers and needed to be removed.

It would be nicer though, if this god let them know that they weren't real believers instead of letting them go to perish. Instead of removing, teach them what is right? But, I can understand their confusion as there are many different beliefs in the world, and none have any concrete evidence to back up their claims.