Perhaps we never die?

You're making the classic mistake of simplifying very complex quantum mechanics.

Dying isn't: you're alive, now you're dead. It's a process. A process involving an unimaginable number of events. Even if you get shot in the head, there's still billions and billions of 'events' that must happen before you actually die. Of course, they happen in an instant. But happen they must.

Only at the most basic quantum level can the 'branching into other realities' idea happen. A photon, for example. It cannot, and does not, happen with something as complicated as a human being.

Originally posted by ka119

One of the more interesting things that have came to awareness lately is the thought that we never die, or at least until our shell (body) gives out.

I had to re-read your O.P a few times before I could reply to it, it made no sense. Let me see if I have this correct.. Your using a Quantum Theory on suicide and immortality (which is just a thought experimenta to help backup your hunch/thought that we never die OR, until our physical bodiy (shell) also dies. Which of these statements are you refering to? Are you asking if we live past our body's shelf life?

If I have things mixed up Its almost 2am here and I'm long over due for some much needed sleep.

Interesting post. I've looked at it from different angles and seems we've pulled ourselves too far from nature (separated) for our own good. Couple of thoughts that come to mind: energy only transforms, the fuel in a log when burned transforms into a small pile of ash with the bulk of the weight of the log disburses into the atmosphere. Out of a 80lb log all that remains are a few pounds of ash and 78lbs went into the air.

The other thought concerns water. Think of all the things that can happen to water. Beings we are made mostly of water this may be vaguely important. It can freeze, evaporate, condense, come down as rain, go over a waterfall, sit in a glacier for 100k years, point being, it never stops being water. Couldn't that same logic apply to us? We continue on a life stream with each new chance to better or improve ourselves for whatever happens when this clay vessel is discarded. Should we use our free will to decide to.

Originally posted by FOXMULDER147
You're making the classic mistake of simplifying very complex quantum mechanics.

Dying isn't: you're alive, now you're dead. It's a process. A process involving an unimaginable number of events. Even if you get shot in the head, there's still billions and billions of 'events' that must happen before you actually die. Of course, they happen in an instant. But happen they must.

Only at the most basic quantum level can the 'branching into other realities' idea happen. A photon, for example. It cannot, and does not, happen with something as complicated as a human being.

According to what we know as reality, and as life, yes i would die if you put a gun to my head and pulled the trigger. That is not to say that my conscious would not continue into another reality where any number of events could change the occurrence of my death.

As i touched upon earlier.. I could get hit and killed because a truck runs a red light. According to the theory, my conscious would then move to another string of reality where i misplaced my keys, dropped them on the way out the door, and ended up five seconds behind schedule, the truck blazes by and i live. Yet the 'jump' would be instantaneous, we may notice slight differences as awake1 said, but we just brush off the experience as a 'close call'.

Originally posted by Freelancer

Originally posted by ka119

One of the more interesting things that have came to awareness lately is the thought that we never die, or at least until our shell (body) gives out.

I had to re-read your O.P a few times before I could reply to it, it made no sense. Let me see if I have this correct.. Your using a Quantum Theory on suicide and immortality (which is just a thought experimenta to help backup your hunch/thought that we never die OR, until our physical bodiy (shell) also dies. Which of these statements are you refering to? Are you asking if we live past our body's shelf life?

If I have things mixed up Its almost 2am here and I'm long over due for some much need sleep.

I didnt mean to cause confusion with the original post. As i re-read it i can see some points where the message was skewed. When i write something on here it is usually a thought that is a jumbled mess in my head, i try to write it in a way that makes sense but sometimes the point gets lost in translation.

Basically I am stating the idea that we may never perceive our human body die until it wears out and can no longer sustain life, then our soul our conscious moves to what is next..

I used the quantum theory to help show the idea of the statement. With quantum immortality being the focus. No matter what the chances, we always may continue on the path of life, therefore perceive immortality until our body can no longer handle it.

This is tough to explain, it is a jumble trying to explain exactly what i mean. Read my past posts on this topic to answer others questions, it may shed some light.

So you're saying we are infinite, and although our body dies, we still continue to exist in another dimension, in another body?

reply to post by Balkan


Not necessarily in another body, but yes we continue living as our souls, in the greater essence. Basically, my perception of it is calming light, nothing else in the world like it. That is what my perception of "heaven" is. I am not religious, that is just from personal experience.

edit: and not exactly in another dimension, i believe it to be higher than all that. And for infinite, though i know time does not exist in the 'light'. You just are, and 'life' just is at that point.

reply to post by ka119


OK I see what you mean..

Now seek deep within yourself and be honest with yourself (makes no difference to me if you cheat yourself out of the answer).. Ask yourself this, IF you had not read up on anything about dying, the process involved in dying, the alternative theory's that we might live on etc etc etc, (which are in reality, just man made theory's) HOW do you feel about your life ending one day?

Much of what we think we know about death is based on the idea's and thoughts of OTHERS, not yours. Remember, we all have a different perspective on the same subject. As you have already mentioned, you could die anytime from your job that you wont mention, its all irrelevant, Living a life that has helped others is all you could ever ask for. When death arrives, just be happy that you had a life worth living for!.

Originally posted by ka119
reply to post by Ghost375

 

I definitely believe that we never die in that sense, but this thread was just targeted at the idea that perhaps we never perceive our physical bodies dying, until we decide to move on.

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Sorry, I should've clarified what I meant. A few years ago, some stuff happened where I very likely could've died. Now at the time, everything passed by sequentially. A few months ago, I was in an altered state, and I thought about that night, then that whole night passed before my mind and I experienced myself dying that night.
The important part I should clarify is the other 2 times I've had NDEs I didn't have that experience of death. If this theory is true, I think it is rare for the actual experience of death to occur(just like you said).
There's another thread about this topic and time slips..ALOT of people posted similar experiences of NDE and feeling the possibility that maybe they actually died in one reality and transferred to this one. (The experience of death I mention happened after that thread.)

Heck, Dostoevsky even wrote a short story about a VERY similar experience. It's called "The Dream of a Ridiculous Man." Very great short story. Quick summary, he decides to kill himself. But right before he does it, he falls asleep. Then, he dreams of actually doing it. I won't ruin what happens next .
But, I think it's very possible that he actually killed himself, but his spirit sort of transferred over to this reality, and his mind interprets it as this dream of his.
Dostoevsky mentions several times in the short "story" that it is true. I've read a lot of Dostoevsky and while he always makes stories that are realistic, I've never read him say that it is actually true like he does in the story.
The lesson he learns in the story is found in pretty much all of his later works.

Dostoevsky had a very real NDE. He was sentenced to death by a firing squad. He was actually standing in front of the guns before the Czar commuted his sentence to a work camp. Is there a reality out there where Dostoevsky was killed in front of that firing squad?

reply to post by Freelancer


Well speaking straight from a near death experience that happened to me in which i was literally pronounced dead, i can tell you that my perception of death is just about as close as it gets. I was in what i call the greater energy, or 'God' to religious people, and let me tell you what, that is an experience i will never forget. You are released from your mind, therefore you have no thought. just awareness. You do not analyze things, you just experience them. You are one with everything, and everything is one with you. It was the greatest feeling i have ever had, so calm and so at peace. I could of stayed there for eternity, the greater energy spoke to me and told me to go back, i have not fulfilled my purpose, though i wanted to stay in the light. I returned, and beat the impossible odds, so here i am today.

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it's a great topic OP, a definitive s&f, and focusing on a theory which popped in my mind a few years back. but i have a question.

a given guy for example, lives up to his 90's, struggling through diseases and also experiencing many accidents throughout his life and survives (or dies and keeps going in alternate instances of himself). what if he dies when he's 92 years old in this timeline and lives another 10 in the other? i mean i never saw anyone making it further than max. 120 - 121 or so according to the guiness book of records, i mean does the guy start over with his present being in all eternity when the average human life expectancy is complete? now that boggles my mind.

reply to post by ka119


I'm imagining this topic in the Metaphysics forum. I can see it there. It's very happy and feels at home there.

That said, the concept you're describing is called Superposition, and for a host of reasons, it can't be true. We've worked on it over in the Metaphysics forum. Something about the stark efficiency of physical reality, and how superpostion violates every obvious tenet of how reality responds to the business of being real. Never forget that unless you stuff a super deluxe god-thing into the middle of existence, what happens at the highest level is a scaled version of what happens at the lowest level. This has been well established at too many levels of existence for it to not be the case from the least to the greatest. Of course, when you get to the quantum level, some allowances have to be made due to the absence of direct ramification - relatively speaking - that greatly diminishes the potential for behavioral variation as you progress up the development chain.

The idea of superposition grew out of a guy with a cat that was just wondering aloud as he watched his cat screw around with a box. Because the guy was a physicist, the imaginings became a theory that he published. The truth is that, as a theory, it's pretty weak on actual linkage to anything else that's ever been proven to have any linkage to anything that's been shown to be true about physical existence. In essence, it's not even three degrees of separation from responsible extrapolation.

Originally posted by Ghost375
I think you're right. Our spirits never die. We never die. These bodies might, but we don't.
btw, I've had similar visions of other time lines. It really sucks to experience your own death.

I agree w/you here Ghost..
Neither do I think we die as in die equals gone forever, cause if thats the case, WHY is my guardian them, and how can he tell me stuff avbout others that I could not have a clue about without him telling me, and asking me to tell them:

No, since my "D" infact have been alive at one time, not so long ago, i have no other option than to just straight up believen in what I see and mostly feel..

//MillsCore

Originally posted by ka119
reply to post by Balkan

 

Not necessarily in another body

Hi..
I strongly believe that someone can actually die and go into another persons body or mind, anyway, by parts...
Cause if that didn't happened to one of my closest friends, my whole theory of my own expericences is thrown out of the window, just as I thought I got a grip on it..

AND that I do not wanna believe, that is what happebed to my friend, my soulmate, he or at least something of him is living on in another person(wich died the same day, heart stopped for some time but he were brought back to life)

A complicated story.. hard to explain if not eye to eye.. and a whole lotta time to kill..

BUT thats MY connection to my guardian, who tells me this is what happened..

I believe him..
//MiIllsCore

reply to post by ka119


Here is my exact feelings about how or if we die, we are an extension of our Over-soul.

Originally posted by jamsession
it's a great topic OP, a definitive s&f, and focusing on a theory which popped in my mind a few years back. but i have a question.

a given guy for example, lives up to his 90's, struggling through diseases and also experiencing many accidents throughout his life and survives (or dies and keeps going in alternate instances of himself). what if he dies when he's 92 years old in this timeline and lives another 10 in the other? i mean i never saw anyone making it further than max. 120 - 121 or so according to the guiness book of records, i mean does the guy start over with his present being in all eternity when the average human life expectancy is complete? now that boggles my mind.

edit on 4-8-2011 by jamsession because: (no reason given)

I am a little lost with the question, what alternate time line do you speak of? If he has jumped into other reality strings cheating death with his accidents and diseases, then he would be in the current reality and another reality would not exist (based on the theory) unless the alternate reality allowed him to dodge a possible mishap at a given point in time that allows him to live longer.

Just typing this out i can understand now what you mean, interesting paradox.. so then does the mans past slightly alter to give him longer natural life until his body cannot sustain?

hmmm.

My thoughts: We are given little specific choices throughout life [try the cigarette, don't try it- drink the beer, don't drink it] and so on, these are not exactly life altering decisions but they can and do effect our body and to what capacity it can hold life. For example, a man who has never smoked or never drank in his life, based on those choices alone, would live longer than a man who has drank and smoked. that being said i believe that we are given those choices and they just affect how long we have naturally in this body, if we deteriorate the body then it cannot sustain life as long, so you die at a sooner date than if those choices hadn't been made.

Thats a very interesting thought jamsession, got me thinking deeper into it. Hmm.
Others thoughts?

Originally posted by NorEaster
reply to post by ka119

 

The idea of superposition grew out of a guy with a cat that was just wondering aloud as he watched his cat screw around with a box. Because the guy was a physicist, the imaginings became a theory that he published. The truth is that, as a theory, it's pretty weak on actual linkage to anything else that's ever been proven to have any linkage to anything that's been shown to be true about physical existence. In essence, it's not even three degrees of separation from responsible extrapolation.

Interesting thoughts throughout the rest of your post, as for the section i have highlighted above..

What is not a theory? Being in the metaphysics forum for a bit myself i have seen different talks regarding all aspects of life and this so called "reality" we live in. There are numerous debunkings to popular thought and what we think is known as fact.
As humans we try to put life into a tight little box so that we can understand it. We have not even began to skim the truth as it actually is, imo.
I have had experiences that have completely changed how i thought of life and what i thought of as facts, we call them facts because as far as we are concerned they are true, buts that only because we have made them true in our own minds. If one can truly create their own reality as great minds such as Albert Einstein said then the laws of nature diminish, not to a major extent but they begin to erode.
It is hard to look at life and put anything in the 'truth' and 'theory' catergory because we that which we know is all based on an original theory.
You can talk to a die hard Christian and they will tell you that the Bible is fact. As will Muslim and a Buddahist, i look at all of life as i do religion.. We will never fully understand, so lets stop pretending like we do. All of life is theories as far as we know. It is interesting to dig into life as we all our doing, but to discredit a theory based on others in not making a fact in my mind.

Very interesting thoughts though, who knows.. you maybe right, i may be right, the guy down the street that thinks life is an elebarote video game may be right. But for now, we all just throw theories.

Star for your thoughts

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reply to post by MillsCore


Interesting posts. I am not discrediting any thoughts or ideas out there, i was just stating the fact that i don't believe we HAVE to reincarnate into another human or form, personally i do believe that your friends story is true and that it is possible, but i do not believe that is the only way.

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reply to post by ka119


i think we're a little lost with the question. okay, let me put it this way, according to the theory, we may die at a given time point while in fact we're hopping between countless dimensions of infinite possiblities without knowing that we're dead in our original timeline. this may happen many times in life and when we die in our current timeline, we keep on with our business in another. right? if not, then i may have totally misunderstood the theory. if yes, we can move on to my question:

what if the guy who dies (there's no cheating involved, he happens to die) in his original realm and is a candidate of infinite life ages up to the point of the ordinary human life expectancy? he lives until his 90's, 100's (whoah). he has to cease existence at some point. would he start over without being aware and without any rememberance of his past life (or lives)? would this be our infinite destiny? the horizontal 8 of infinity? =) thanks for taking time to respond.

edit ~ o yee just saw the other part of your message, though it is not the exact answer to my question, you suggest quite interesting ideas there. perhaps i may have misinterpreted the teory, my mind is one and a million atm, had to finish a great deal oh project, sorry sorry awe brainstorming here.

reply to post by sirric


I apologize, i do not have the time to watch all of the videos right not (but i will tonight) but from what i have watched i absolutely agree.
I believe that the "over soul" is the same as the "greater energy" i was talking about. We are all one with it and it is all one with us, upon reaching awareness of this we are able to tap in and have a connection with all of life and all of humanity, for we all are one.
No death in my eyes,just a transformation as it says in the video.
But i am just focusing on the topic of the life we lead until death, how we cheat death and the possibilities of these reality strings, not necessarily what happens after we die, Thank you for the insight though, star

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