Why do you follow a genocidal God?

reply to post by Hydroman

The idea is that fallen angels came to earth and mated with human women and created offspring, which was detestable in the eyes of the lord.

That's in Genesis 6. Chapter 5 is basically a genealogy, so to get to the narrative just before the Nephilim, you have to go to the end of chapter 4, last verse which reads: "And a son was also born to Seth, whom he named Enosh. At that time people began to worship the Lord."
So this would be the explanation of who the "sons of God" were. They are the sons of Enosh. Mankind would be the people with all the daughters. The great men of renown could be a priest class who started acting like they were kings and the God got disgusted because he set up a religion but it immediately went to hell because these men could not learn holiness.

reply to post by faithparadigm


You wrote:

["You're terribly mistaken to stand before God and wag your finger in His face and tell Him you find Him to be immoral. You're existence on this planet is less than a puff of smoke in light of the eternity God dwells in."]

As described from YOUR self-reinforcing and circle-argumented premises. We don't all share them.

Quote: ["You know nothing of what God may have done to reach out to the the people that were in the land promised to the Jews."]

Whereas you do, probably relying on your mythological manual.

Quote: ["You need to desire to understand the entire bible before you'll know why I follow a God you believe to be genocidal."]

Personally I'm somewhat well-informed on religious ideology, and it has definitely lead me to seeing the character Jahveh as a schizoid sociopath.

Quote: ["At the very core of your question is self-righteousness. You believe you're better equipped than God to make decisions about His plan to redeem mankind back to Himself."]

Once more on YOUR premises. There are positions and perspectives on this, obviously beyond the scope of your mindset.

Quote: ["If you'll humble yourself and seek actual truth from the bible;"]

A 'bondage' religion with a master-slave relationship is very unattractive to many people.

Quote: [" you'll find it."]

Has the blasphemic thought ever struck you, that people make their own ACTIVE choices outside your black/white doctrines?

reply to post by Bigwhammy


You wrote:

["If you actually care about truth then I can provide you with a a thoughtful and reasoned response based on historical scholarship of the ancient world. The world is a desperately wicked place as the two world wars in the twentieth century and the 200+ million killed during peace time in the name of Atheistic Marxism has proved.

Was it immoral to kill the Nazi's or was it a necessary evil? I think it was necessary. The same applies to the Canaanites and they were given time to repent. They were seriously depraved practicing child sacrifice and bestiality. Here is a scholarly article by a respected biblical scholar Clay Jones."]

Your statistics are imprecise and imprecisely applied.

The moral system you propagate for is circle-argumented.

Your reference to scholarship is a biased authority-argument.

You won't convince anyone with even the slightest knowledge of rational reasoning with this kind of arguments.

Originally posted by Hydroman

Originally posted by Konstantinos

The theory of the Nephalim comes to mind (human/corrupted angel hybrids) - see the story of "The Watchers".

The idea is that fallen angels came to earth and mated with human women and created offspring, which was detestable in the eyes of the lord. My thoughts on this are as follows: Do angels have sexual reproductive organs? If so, can they mate with each other and produce offspring? If not, why do they have sexual reproductive organs?

An excellent question! I wish I had an excellent answer! LOL
I suppose they could take human form, or maybe even possess men?
Then this would open a debate about an angel having the power to possess man (the image of God) etc etc

Originally posted by Dreine
I believe that any system that wants everyone to do and say without question and without accountability is just another system of control. Isn't the beauty of humanity it's creativity, passion, and variety?
Most 'main-stream' religions use fear and public embarressment to keep their followers in line.
How far could mankind be if not for organized religion?

Much further than we are now to my way of thinking.
Ask Galileo.

Regards
DL

Originally posted by Konstantinos
You raise some great points.
I'm not a theologian, but I think one of the arguments out there regarding Old Testament genocides was that humans were not the only ones inhabiting the planet (yes I know it's a stretch).
The theory of the Nephalim comes to mind (human/corrupted angel hybrids) - see the story of "The Watchers".
Do I believe this? I don't know, there is no proof one way or another...
For my personal beliefs I focus more on the New Testament instead.

Just my 2 cents

You would think an omnipotent God would have seen them coming and not forced him to have to use genocide.

That oddity aside, and since you follow God's son Jesus, do you not find it strange that Jesus did not just have God cure the defects he created instead of killing them, children and babies, off?

To your N T comment. Would you give, Hitler's son lets say, any respect regardless of what he did and ignore what his father did?

Regards
DL

Originally posted by bogomil
reply to post by Greatest I am

 

Don't expect to much from mankind. We're still mainly talking monkeys with intellects out of proportion.

But I'm optimistic about our chances of surving this imbalance. After all contemporary mankind is slowly beginning to see the advantages of co-existence, though a minor percentage still do their best to goad us to positions of black/white 'truths'.

We are getting better as conditions improve.
Stats are down for violent crimes and slavery, two of the main markers I think for evil.

Man, like all of evolving nature, will either compete/do evil, or cooperate/do good, to survive.

It all depend on the conditions and I would not change our instincts.

Regards
DL

Originally posted by Cuervo
reply to post by Greatest I am

 

Nobody follows a genocidal god because God is not genocidal. Just because there are countless people who follow, quite literally, fictional accounts of their God... it does not change the actual nature of god.

1. The bible depicts God as genocidal.
2. The bible does not dictate to God how God shall act.
3. The bible is what it is... a book of collected texts, some inspired by God, some inspired by personal ambition.
4. The connection between any holy text and God should be taken allegorically, at best.

God is NOT genocidal.

What is the allegorical moral leson of the flood then if not that God can kill to the point of genocide?

Regards
DL

Originally posted by Bigwhammy
If you actually care about truth then I can provide you with a a thoughtful and reasoned response based on historical scholarship of the ancient world. The world is a desperately wicked place as the two world wars in the twentieth century and the 200+ million killed during peace time in the name of Atheistic Marxism has proved.

Was it immoral to kill the Nazi's or was it a necessary evil? I think it was necessary. The same applies to the Canaanites and they were given time to repent. They were seriously depraved practicing child sacrifice and bestiality. Here is a scholarly article by a respected biblical scholar Clay Jones.

Thanks for insinuating that I am not looking for truth.
Quite a Christian perspective that I see often.

You speak of all the miracles that God did in sending prophets etc.

With miracles at hand, why would God not just cure those he saw as defective instead of killing them all?
That is the moral thing to do.

Or in the case of the genocide of Noah's day, why not just move the 8 survivors to a new earth and leave the rest to die out naturally?
Again, a better moral move.

Regards
DL

Originally posted by Hydroman

Originally posted by Konstantinos

The theory of the Nephalim comes to mind (human/corrupted angel hybrids) - see the story of "The Watchers".

The idea is that fallen angels came to earth and mated with human women and created offspring, which was detestable in the eyes of the lord. My thoughts on this are as follows: Do angels have sexual reproductive organs? If so, can they mate with each other and produce offspring? If not, why do they have sexual reproductive organs?

Tsk tsk.
You know that logical questions have no place in the minds of theists.
Shame on you.

Just kidding.
Keep it up.

BTW, angels are supposed to be non corporeal like God are they not?
I thought that only God had invisible flying sperm that only targeted virgins.

Regards
DL

reply to post by Greatest I am

BTW, angels are supposed to be non corporeal like God are they not?
I thought that only God had invisible flying sperm that only targeted virgins.

Jesus said it was ridiculous talking about having sex in the afterlife because we will be like angels.
God did not use his own sperm. It would have been Joseph's, if anyone's because that is what his genealogy says and it says several times that Joseph was his father.

Because his justice is perfect, but not always understood by the human mind.
Sodom for example was a city that needed to be purged from this planet.
When 2 angels visited Lot, a mob from young boy to old man wanted to rape them.
Did those people deserve death ? God thought so, and I agree.

Originally posted by Blue_Jay33
Because his justice is perfect, but not always understood by the human mind.
Sodom for example was a city that needed to be purged from this planet.
When 2 angels visited Lot, a mob from young boy to old man wanted to rape them.
Did those people deserve death ? God thought so, and I agree.

Based on YOUR premises, you naturally arrive at YOUR predetermined answer. ANYTHING can be 'proved' that way.

Originally posted by jmdewey60
reply to post by Greatest I am

 

BTW, angels are supposed to be non corporeal like God are they not?
I thought that only God had invisible flying sperm that only targeted virgins.

Jesus said it was ridiculous talking about having sex in the afterlife because we will be like angels.
God did not use his own sperm. It would have been Joseph's, if anyone's because that is what his genealogy says and it says several times that Joseph was his father.

edit on 5-8-2011 by jmdewey60 because: (no reason given)

Then God was not involved was he?
When Jesus said his father sent him, he meant Joseph.

Regards
DL

Originally posted by Blue_Jay33
Because his justice is perfect, but not always understood by the human mind.
Sodom for example was a city that needed to be purged from this planet.
When 2 angels visited Lot, a mob from young boy to old man wanted to rape them.
Did those people deserve death ? God thought so, and I agree.

What harm did the children and babies do that dies along with the adults?
Did they deserve death as well?
And what of that fantastic free will that God supposedly gave us?
He sure clawed that back when he ignored their free will choice to live.

So much for God's an eye for an eye.
Find a legitimate way to satisfy your homophobia.

Regards
DL

reply to post by Konstantinos


because early 'christians' followed the teaching of 'jesus',basically a political terrorist against rome. its kinda like america trying to wipe out the taliban for following osama bin laden!(reference only!) so of coarse the romans would persecute them. but when a movement gets too big,better to join them than tring to beat them!!!

Originally posted by Greatest I am
Why do you follow a genocidal God?

Bible God, the un-knowable one, has been described in scriptures by someone claiming to know much of the un-knowable God. How the un-knowable can be know has yet to shown. On reading scriptures, some have concluded that Bible God is quite immoral.
www.youtube.com...

I tend to agree based on moral reasons and would like to keep the discussion on morality without going into whether God is real or not. Something that we cannot prove. We can prove though whether we think Bible God acted morally or not.

The first followers of Bible God, the Jews, also seem to agree with Dawkins and myself.

www.youtube.com...

Genocide, or attempted genocide is considered by most to be a low moral position.

Followers of a Hitler or Stalin, who would try to justify their genocidal actions, would not be well received by most of us.

Why then do you think that we should join you in following a God who takes the moral low ground of genocide instead of doing the right moral thing and curing instead of killing those he thinks defective?

As a religionist myself, I can understand seeking God but why would we want to seek, or follow a genocidal one?

What attracts you to a genocidal God?
Is it just that might makes right?

We are to emulate God.
Does that mean that you too would use genocide as a form of what most believers think of as good justice?

Regards
DL

If you understood scripture then you would look at this in a very different light.

Genesis 6:1 When men began to increase in number on the earth and daughters were born to them, the sons of God saw that the daughters of men were beautiful, and they married any of them they chose. Then the LORD said, "My Spirit will not contend with man forever, for he is mortal; his days will be a hundred and twenty years." The Nephilim were on the earth in those days--and also afterward--when the sons of God went to the daughters of men and had children by them. They were the heroes of old, men of renown.

The sons of God are angels in heaven, they gave up their natural habitation in heaven because they lusted after women on the earth. They had sexual relations with the women of the earth and bore the Nephilim. Earlier in Genesis, God makes it clear that each species should reproduce from it's own kind. The angels violated this command. God banished these angels and placed them in gloomy dugeons to await final judgement.

2PE 2:4 For if God did not spare angels when they sinned, but sent them to hell, putting them into gloomy dungeons to be held for judgment; if he did not spare the ancient world when he brought the flood on its ungodly people, but protected Noah, a preacher of righteousness, and seven others;

Jude 1:6 And the angels which kept not their first estate, but left their own habitation, he hath reserved in everlasting chains under darkness unto the judgment of the great day.

God destroyed all of the Nephilim with the flood because they were an abomination, they were of corrupt flesh because they were a hybrid species created by the union of angels and human beings. The scripture is clear that the Nephilim were also on the earth after the flood, indicating that more angels gave up their natural habitation in heaven and caused more mischief with women of the earth. God then specifically commands the Israelites to destroy certain Nations of people because their flesh was corrupted (genetically).

Here is a description of one of the tribes that God asked the Israelites to destroy:

Numbers 13:31 But the men that went up with him said, We be not able to go up against the people; for they are stronger than we. And they brought up an evil report of the land which they had searched unto the children of Israel, saying, The land, through which we have gone to search it, is a land that eateth up the inhabitants thereof; and all the people that we saw in it are men of a great stature. And there we saw the giants, the sons of Anak, which come of the giants: and we were in our own sight as grasshoppers, and so we were in their sight.

Anak was one of the fallen angels. This is where the term 'Annunaki' comes from (famous in UFO and ET circles). It means 'Sons of Anak'. This is why the women and children were not spared, they were genetically corrupted.

If you are interested in studying this further, then I suggest reading the book of Enoch. The book of Enoch is scripture despite not being part of the canon. The book of Enoch was found amongst the dead sea scrolls and was referenced in the book of Jude and the book of Revelation. In the book of Enoch is a more detailed description of what the Angels did in the time before the flood.

Originally posted by XplanetX

God destroyed all of the Nephilim with the flood because they were an abomination,

Genesis 6:4
There were giants in the earth in those days; and also after that

After that?
I assume this means there where still some Nephilim after the flood?

Ah yes

Here is a description of one of the tribes that God asked the Israelites to destroy:

Numbers 13:31 But the men that went up with him said, We be not able to go up against the people; for they are stronger than we. And they brought up an evil report of the land which they had searched unto the children of Israel, saying, The land, through which we have gone to search it, is a land that eateth up the inhabitants thereof; and all the people that we saw in it are men of a great stature. And there we saw the giants, the sons of Anak, which come of the giants: and we were in our own sight as grasshoppers, and so we were in their sight.

So the story says god tried to drown the Nephilim by drowning the whole world but like a poor marksman he missed

Originally posted by racasan

Originally posted by XplanetX

God destroyed all of the Nephilim with the flood because they were an abomination,

Genesis 6:4
There were giants in the earth in those days; and also after that

After that?
I assume this means there where still some Nephilim after the flood?

Ah yes

Here is a description of one of the tribes that God asked the Israelites to destroy:

Numbers 13:31 But the men that went up with him said, We be not able to go up against the people; for they are stronger than we. And they brought up an evil report of the land which they had searched unto the children of Israel, saying, The land, through which we have gone to search it, is a land that eateth up the inhabitants thereof; and all the people that we saw in it are men of a great stature. And there we saw the giants, the sons of Anak, which come of the giants: and we were in our own sight as grasshoppers, and so we were in their sight.

So the story says god tried to drown the Nephilim by drowning the whole world but like a poor marksman he missed

edit on 10-8-2011 by racasan because: (no reason given)

On the contrary, he succeeded.

More Angels left their habitation in heaven after the flood and mingled their seed with women again. Read my post more carefully before shooting off like a poor marksman.

reply to post by XplanetX

More Angels left their habitation in heaven after the flood and mingled their seed with women again. Read my post more carefully before shooting off like a poor marksman.

Genesis never says angels had sex. "After" does not mean after the flood. The sons of Anak are not connected to the Nephilim.
The sons of God would have been the priest class who did not choose to interbreed with their own tribe.
The angels left their station, as in their assigned jobs.