Why do you follow a genocidal God?

Why do you follow a genocidal God?

Bible God, the un-knowable one, has been described in scriptures by someone claiming to know much of the un-knowable God. How the un-knowable can be know has yet to shown. On reading scriptures, some have concluded that Bible God is quite immoral.
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I tend to agree based on moral reasons and would like to keep the discussion on morality without going into whether God is real or not. Something that we cannot prove. We can prove though whether we think Bible God acted morally or not.

The first followers of Bible God, the Jews, also seem to agree with Dawkins and myself.

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Genocide, or attempted genocide is considered by most to be a low moral position.

Followers of a Hitler or Stalin, who would try to justify their genocidal actions, would not be well received by most of us.

Why then do you think that we should join you in following a God who takes the moral low ground of genocide instead of doing the right moral thing and curing instead of killing those he thinks defective?

As a religionist myself, I can understand seeking God but why would we want to seek, or follow a genocidal one?

What attracts you to a genocidal God?
Is it just that might makes right?

We are to emulate God.
Does that mean that you too would use genocide as a form of what most believers think of as good justice?

Regards
DL

I believe that any system that wants everyone to do and say without question and without accountability is just another system of control. Isn't the beauty of humanity it's creativity, passion, and variety?
Most 'main-stream' religions use fear and public embarressment to keep their followers in line.
How far could mankind be if not for organized religion?

You raise some great points.
I'm not a theologian, but I think one of the arguments out there regarding Old Testament genocides was that humans were not the only ones inhabiting the planet (yes I know it's a stretch).
The theory of the Nephalim comes to mind (human/corrupted angel hybrids) - see the story of "The Watchers".
Do I believe this? I don't know, there is no proof one way or another...
For my personal beliefs I focus more on the New Testament instead.

Just my 2 cents

In all serious though....If God really existed and controlled events...was Bush Jr some kind of sick joke?

Originally posted by Konstantinos
You raise some great points.
I'm not a theologian, but I think one of the arguments out there regarding Old Testament genocides was that humans were not the only ones inhabiting the planet (yes I know it's a stretch).
The theory of the Nephalim comes to mind (human/corrupted angel hybrids) - see the story of "The Watchers".
Do I believe this? I don't know, there is no proof one way or another...
For my personal beliefs I focus more on the New Testament instead.

Just my 2 cents

I just coppied part of a post by J R MacBeth in the Jew thread that may be something to think about.

Some years ago, a geriatric dentist (wish I could recall his name) came out with his observations that Neanderthal teeth, jaw structure, even cranial "distortion", all appeared to be consistent with "normal" human comparisons, as long as the assumed life span was increased just a bit.

This dentist was already seeing "Neanderthalization" in his old human patients! When he looked into the mouth of a 100 year old, the forces that had been at work on those teeth, the way it affected the jaw, even the shape of the head, seemed to perhaps imply that "if" humans could live just another one or two hundred years, we might end up looking exactly like what we call "Neanderthal" today.

Adding to this interesting observation was the fact that arthritis seemed to be almost universally indicated in Neanderthal remains, and there was scant evidence of juvenile remains ever found (although this is disputed).

reply to post by Greatest I am


Don't expect to much from mankind. We're still mainly talking monkeys with intellects out of proportion.

But I'm optimistic about our chances of surving this imbalance. After all contemporary mankind is slowly beginning to see the advantages of co-existence, though a minor percentage still do their best to goad us to positions of black/white 'truths'.

interesting thoughts,and i agree with most of them. but,the first 'bible god' followers were moses and his group,the hebrews. ancient historians think this is an egyptian word 'habiru',which loosly means 'wanderers'.the first 'name' of the bible god was 'el shiddia' which means lord of the mountain.(moses, 10 commandments,buning bush etc.) back in 'the day',everyone had a personal god to protect their house and so on,and each god had a name. bigger cities had the main gods - ishtar etc. being able to 'name' your god gave you power over him/her. when moses went up the mountain,and seen the burning bush,god spoke to him. moses asked god what his name was,and god said "I AM WHAT I AM" he woulnt give up his name! beal(bible uses this name for molock) actually means lord as well. in demonology, 'bealzabub' means lord of the flies. unfortunately for biblical archeology/ancient midle east history,its like playing the kids game 'telephone'! the original story had been lost in time,and now all we have is a weird,twisted version of what actually happened! poor christians are following a made up belief system fabricated by the later romans (paul/saul -roman) for population/empire control!
some of the info here may not be 100% accurate,but its close enough. please feel free to correct for other readers.
by the way,the 'jews' are the people from judea,not a religious group.
hope you enjoy!

reply to post by reficul


Interesting, so if Christianity was a Roman tool of population control, why did Rome persecute and condemn it for so long? To be caught as a Christian was virtually a death penalty, no?

reply to post by Greatest I am


Nobody follows a genocidal god because God is not genocidal. Just because there are countless people who follow, quite literally, fictional accounts of their God... it does not change the actual nature of god.

1. The bible depicts God as genocidal.
2. The bible does not dictate to God how God shall act.
3. The bible is what it is... a book of collected texts, some inspired by God, some inspired by personal ambition.
4. The connection between any holy text and God should be taken allegorically, at best.

God is NOT genocidal.

reply to post by Cuervo


You wrote:

["God is NOT genocidal."]

That ofcourse depends on which 'god' you're talking about and then also on the perspective of the 'observer'.

Originally posted by bogomil
reply to post by Cuervo

 

You wrote:

["God is NOT genocidal."]

That ofcourse depends on which 'god' you're talking about and then also on the perspective of the 'observer'.

Point taken. I'm referring to my god whom I associate with the Judeo-Christian god.

I'm quite open to the possibility (probability) of spiritual influence guiding the likes of Hitler with the Jews or our founding fathers with the natives. To some, those spirits might be "god".

reply to post by reficul

. . .being able to 'name' your god gave you power over him/her. when moses went up the mountain,and seen the burning bush,god spoke to him. moses asked god what his name was,and god said "I AM WHAT I AM" he woulnt give up his name!

This is exactly right. The actual God as in the creator of the universe, does not go about giving out His name and uses the most generic sort of description, such as God.

You're terribly mistaken to stand before God and wag your finger in His face and tell Him you find Him to be immoral. You're existence on this planet is less than a puff of smoke in light of the eternity God dwells in.
You know nothing of what God may have done to reach out to the the people that were in the land promised to the Jews. Look at the story of Jonah and the Ninevites. One man walks through the city and tells the people God's sick of your sin and He is going to destroy you, they repent, they're forgiven. What an onerous burden!
If you actually read the bible and not just the cliff notes from atheist self help sites you'd understand that the Hebrew people were left in bondage in Egypt for 400 years. It wasn't until the "Stench of the sin of the Ammorites reached God's nose" that he freed the Hebrews. You need to desire to understand the entire bible before you'll know why I follow a God you believe to be genocidal. At the very core of your question is self-righteousness. You believe you're better equipped than God to make decisions about His plan to redeem mankind back to Himself.
If you'll humble yourself and seek actual truth from the bible; you'll find it.

reply to post by faithparadigm


If God exists... and it is omnipotent... then I'm sure he'd actually want us to ask questions and think rather than be mindless slaves, right?

Or would he? Just ask yourself this...

If I were all powerful, would I just sit back and 'allow' things to happen, and my 'children' to suffer?

Any parent knows the answer to this question.

If you actually care about truth then I can provide you with a a thoughtful and reasoned response based on historical scholarship of the ancient world. The world is a desperately wicked place as the two world wars in the twentieth century and the 200+ million killed during peace time in the name of Atheistic Marxism has proved.

Was it immoral to kill the Nazi's or was it a necessary evil? I think it was necessary. The same applies to the Canaanites and they were given time to repent. They were seriously depraved practicing child sacrifice and bestiality. Here is a scholarly article by a respected biblical scholar Clay Jones.

The “new atheists” call God’s commands to kill the Canaanites “genocide,” but a closer look at the horror of the Canaanites’ sinfulness, exhibited in rampant idolatry, incest, adultery, child sacrifice, homosexuality, and bestiality, reveals that God’s reason for commanding their death was not genocide but capital punishment. After all, the Old Testament unequivocally commands that those who do any one of these things deserves to die. Also, God made it clear in His conversation with Abraham regarding the Canaanite cities of Sodom and Gomorrah that He knows who would or would not repent, and in the case of those cities, not one person would heed the warning and even Lot’s family had to be forcibly pulled away from the coming destruction. In Leviticus 18 God then warns Israel that if they commit similar sins that the land would similarly “vomit” them out. Later when Israel disobeys God and allows the Canaanites to continue to live among them, the corruptive and seductive power of Canaanite sin results in the Canaanization of Israel. Subsequently, God sent prophets to warn Israel of their coming destruction, but they didn’t repent and God said that they became “like Sodom to me” and He visited destruction on Israel for committing the same sins. This again reveals that God’s motive isn’t genocide, but capital punishment. That we commit similar sins today renders us incapable of appropriate moral outrage against these sins and thus we accuse God of “genocide” to justify our own sinfulness.

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Originally posted by Dreine
reply to post by faithparadigm

 

If God exists... and it is omnipotent... then I'm sure he'd actually want us to ask questions and think rather than be mindless slaves, right?
Or would he? Just ask yourself this...
If I were all powerful, would I just sit back and 'allow' things to happen, and my 'children' to suffer?
Any parent knows the answer to this question.

Be god yourself then. I'm not being sarcastic. The Lord at the Garden said, apparently to at least one other god, They have become like one of us. Claim your godhood and fix the world, since you don't see an all-powerful god doing anything. It could be that this hypothetical god has left you and others like you, to think for yourself and deal with matters. This is very biblical in concept and recommended by Jesus.

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reply to post by jmdewey60


I have more humility to believe I am god, or a god, or anything other than another being here on this planet.

Plain and simple.

However, I'm not simply going to bow down to a being that has never... NEVER... shown himself in a way that can not be refuted or denied. Faith for the sake of faith is simply fear of the unknown.

Originally posted by Dreine
reply to post by jmdewey60

 

I have more humility to believe I am god, or a god, or anything other than another being here on this planet.
Plain and simple.
However, I'm not simply going to bow down to a being that has never... NEVER... shown himself in a way that can not be refuted or denied. Faith for the sake of faith is simply fear of the unknown.

Do you see God asking you to bow down? My guess would be, No.
So what would make you think that being a god yourself requires anyone to bow to you?
As long as you realize every person you meet could be a god too, then being humble is not so difficult.

Originally posted by Konstantinos

The theory of the Nephalim comes to mind (human/corrupted angel hybrids) - see the story of "The Watchers".

The idea is that fallen angels came to earth and mated with human women and created offspring, which was detestable in the eyes of the lord. My thoughts on this are as follows: Do angels have sexual reproductive organs? If so, can they mate with each other and produce offspring? If not, why do they have sexual reproductive organs?