ATS Survey Results: The U.S. Debt Crisis

reply to post by ThirdEyeofHorus


the same people who brought us obama care that was the epitomy of corruption after manufacturing a "healthcare crisis" are the very same people who brought us the "debt crisis"

and yep those evil republicans and teaparties are the most evil vile thing they know.

thats it i am switching parties gonna put a D by my name then i can do whatever i want and they will still love me.

all you have to remember is absolute power corrupts absolutely!!

reply to post by neo96


Please, do what ever you think best....just quit whinning. Man up!!
Taking this poll seriously shows a terrible lack of perception.

reply to post by whaaa


noone making you read my posts

reply to post by kro32

Didn't read the whole thread, but I must say I am not surprised even a little that most people who voted felt 'strongly' one way or the other.

Originally posted by SaturnFX
dayum...
If the tea party can't even get a pass on ATS, I would say there is nothing but doom for the tea drinking tardicons

Yah, well the "coffee party" couldn't even get any traction till Georgy Pordgy sent in the SEIU labor thugs to crash the Tea Parties. And why did SEIU do that? Why did they beat up T Party activists? One has to wonder about that? The whole point here is that Tea Party opposed Socialism/Marxism. And who in the WH best represents that ideology???? This whole thing has been a Marxist coup takeover of our govt, even after the general infiltration of CFR etc. Tea Parties oppose Marxism/Socialism because it is a failed system which is parasitic and eats the seed corn. Communism did not work in the USSR, and Socialism is communism in increments. It's so simple.
Lefties keep insisting the problem is all on the Right. Statism is what it is, and both sides have elements of it, but the left is far more the party of communism. The confusion comes in when there has been so much synthesising of the two ideologies that the end result appears to be neither side. The End result is the One World Govt.
Which you have said you love.

Originally posted by neo96
reply to post by ThirdEyeofHorus

 

the same people who brought us obama care that was the epitomy of corruption after manufacturing a "healthcare crisis" are the very same people who brought us the "debt crisis"

and yep those evil republicans and teaparties are the most evil vile thing they know.

thats it i am switching parties gonna put a D by my name then i can do whatever i want and they will still love me.

Hahaha yah I hear you on that. But look, whenever the Prez does something lefties don't like they immediately chalk it up to him being too far right. Hahaha it's hilarious. They cannot take responsibility for the most left-leaning person in the WH.

reply to post by neo96


Yup. I know the feeling

The thing is, you have to realize that it was an opinion poll, and as such isn't a measure of absolute truth, objective or not. It's their opinions, which they are entitled to hold, to give voice to, and to act upon, the same as you and I. Don't take it personally. it is the perceptions that people hold, not an absolute yardstick of who is the "most" corrupt.

Same goes for the folks on the other side taking umbrage at the results. It's not an indictment of YOU personally, it's a measure of how the people you may or may not (and it's looking like a lot of "not" mixed in there!) support are viewed by your opposite numbers.

The "best" of a bad bunch is still not "good", any more than the lesser of two evils become something above evil.

You also have to take into account how those perceptions are formed, particularly among those who don't get out amongst the opposition and check a pulse here and there. There are, and always have been, a small core group of people who will tow the party line, come hell or high water, right or wrong. They will promote what they are told to believe, and you see a certain degree of that at ATS, but perhaps not so much as in the general public. Those few are fairly easy to spot, by the way they spew the party line, and find themselves having to "redefine" what just yesterday were accepted terms in order to shoehorn the new concept labelled with the old term into their current paradigm. Easy to spot. Not a danger at all - no kind of threat.

Most people are not that way. Their opinions are subject to revision by simply rubbing elbows here and there, and exchanging ideas. The opinion they hold today, based upon faulty information (supplied by a media just as corrupt as the politicians) can magically morph when they get out and spar, and find that the boxes they've been instructed to pack everyone in just don't always fit.

A case in point. I'm hard core "right wing". I'm just to the right of Atilla the Hun - so far right that I damn near wrap around to the left. The partisan line-towers automatically attack when they see me, as if they were programmed to do so (which indeed they are!) Yet even here, on the political battlefield, I encountered a hard-core communist, just to the left of Lenin, so far to the left that he damn near wrapped around to the right. 25 years ago, we'd have most likely killed each other on sight. Instead, through discussion and the exchange of ideas, we learned a little something about each other. I didn't budge his core beliefs even a little, nor did he budge mine, but we found that in spite of our differences, it was possible to work together for the good of all without compromising what was essentially each of us individually, by standing on what ground was common to us both. We actually thrashed out a new system (well, ok, maybe it was more revised than "new") where every one could get the most important parts of what they wanted out of a government in the same nation. Every one goes away satisfied, no one has to die. He made a thread about it, I chimed in, and some critics came along to test it. Every one, critics included, was ESSENTIAL in that process. You don't know what your strengths are until the opposition probes for your weaknesses, so I thank God for opponents!

I actually have more respect for him, who once would have been my sworn enemy to the death, than I do for these partisan syncophants who fear to deviate far enough from the marked trail to make a new discovery about their opposition.

There are none so blind as those who WILL NOT see.

I'm actually heartened by some of the responses to that poll, and I choose, myself, to stress and explore those rather than the ones I would otherwise tend to see as "negative". The poll shows that there is more common ground to work with than one sees at first blush. Look beyond the burned out ruins. Seek the rose that grows among the ashes. that's where you'll find the fertile ground.

They can't change my mind, I'm secure enough in my beliefs to be sure of that. I don't want to change their mind, because I'd lose a valuable test bed. What we'll have to do, though, is find the place where we can work together, because if we don't we'll BOTH be lost.

Seek the fertile ground.

reply to post by CorneliusRandom


Well, there has been a lot of hatred and jealousy of the US over the years, and yet people still keep coming from every other country in the world to take advantage of the opportunities. And why is that? Because we used to represent freedom and liberty, opportunity, the land of milk and honey, free enterprise and the Capitalist system, while other countries were flailing in poverty, socialist schemes, petty dictatorships, and so on. Why people are not fleeing to Brazil, the other rich country? I just wish the leftists would migrate to Venezuela and leave the rest of us to Capitalism. I think the deeper truth is that somewhere in their heart of hearts they know that they cannot exist without the Capital coming from other people. In fact, that really is the point, socialism cannot exist without the host.

Originally posted by iamjesusphish Obama is the worst negotiator i have seen out of recent presidents. Bush would have scared people by threatening martial law and the like. Obama said old people may not get their checks.

Originally posted by Ophiuchus 13 Seems MANY smell corruption.

I just saw a TV commercial during my GF's stories (she claims she snarks) that references conspiracy theories. It is definitely going mainstream.

I know there is too much opposition to social services and taxing the rich to fix the country on it's own terms. I think because it's beyond repair, many people want it to just start over. The problem is, we as individuals have wildly differing ideas about how life should be. This could result in little countries within the borders defending invasion from all parts outward. It could also resort in a collaboration of these little countries to fill the gaps of the other. "My country, love it or leave it" could turn from a motto of belligerence to helpful advice.

In order to keep all the related stuff in one place, I thought I would drop some important headlines about the debt crises. Even though our government may have stopped a default, there is another interesting story not being told.

Council on Foreign Relations: A U.S. Debt -- and Prestige -- Downgrade?

Even if lawmakers in Washington are able to reach agreement to avoid default (Politico) ahead of the August 2 deadline, it may not be enough to stop leading credit rating agencies from downgrading the United States from its AAA rating. The three leading agencies – Standard and Poor's, Moody's, and Fitch – have indicated that if the United States does not implement a "credible" (Bloomberg) and comprehensive deficit-reduction package that would see savings of around $4 trillion over the next ten years, a downgrade of U.S. Treasury debt could be imminent. Economists, analysts, and investors have warned that such a move would raise U.S. borrowing costs and slow overall growth, with global economic repercussions.

We didn't fix the problem. Since the current debt plan only shaves off $2.5ish trillion, over the next ten years, the United States will lose its triple-A credit rating. Its no longer avoidable.

Regardless about what deal has been made, avoiding the default didn't do anything to prevent a possible downgrade.

Originally posted by ThirdEyeofHorus

Yah, Neo that's pretty bizarre results huh. That many people here buy into the MSM bull about the Tea Party(MSM sure did their job eh) and not only that, but they believe that OBama and the Republicans are the most corrupt. That means that lefties view Obama as another Republican.....that's the only way I can read this....I wonder if anyone else sees it differently.

Exactly. It's the reaction they've been told to have by the MSM. That will change over time, if they bother to actually get out and engage Tea Party folks in dialogue and learn something of the reality on the ground.

It will change.

You know, during Reconstruction, it was the Republicans who self-identified as "liberals", and were painted as "radicals". The Democrats at that time were the "conservatives". My, how times change!

This will change over time, too.

reply to post by nenothtu


i think im wrong here but once upon a time that platform the teaparty ran on is what liberalism use to be?

smaller government more freedom etc?

reply to post by Niall197

If 7,183 can't be bothered to register & contribute to ATS, why should anyone care what they think ? Who were they ? Party hacktivists flown in for the vote ?

Sorry, but this survey means nada if you can't tell us who the 7,183 were.

What that 7,183 means is that there are a LOT of lurkers who read the site but do not comment.

Originally posted by ThirdEyeofHorus

Originally posted by SaturnFX
dayum...
If the tea party can't even get a pass on ATS, I would say there is nothing but doom for the tea drinking tardicons

Yah, well the "coffee party" couldn't even get any traction till Georgy Pordgy sent in the SEIU labor thugs to crash the Tea Parties. And why did SEIU do that?

Don't know, the "coffee party" got no traction because it is a lame idea.
We don't need more fracturing, we need more unification and strength...the tea party may be the toast of the fringe right, but the true impact will be spotted in the next election cycle when the tea party force the most fringe people to the firing line and get rejected by the 75% of voters that really...really don't like em.

The coffee party..that was almost satire I think..

Why did they beat up T Party activists?

omg, someone had a fight somewhere while talking political retoric.
I won't even ask for a citation, will just take your word that someone somewhere had a fight....
relevance being...erm...nothing

One has to wonder about that?

I would rather wonder why shipment is by car and cargo is by ship..more productive thinking

The whole point here is that Tea Party opposed Socialism/Marxism.

Today
Yesterday when it was formed, it opposed fiscal irresponsibility. It was spending crazy without revenue..no, they were not saying raise taxes, their push was to balance the budget and start cutting down on the debt...
I see both things need to happen, cut down on the spending, and let the bush tax cuts expire for all...however, chances are it will expire only for 250k+, at least initially

And who in the WH best represents that ideology???? This whole thing has been a Marxist coup takeover of our govt, even after the general infiltration of CFR etc.

Wait...we live in a marxist society? really? this is it?
Wow, and here I was told its a bad thing...I can still do all the things I want to do same as before..hmm

All that bad talk about marxism..had me all paranoid,
Which means one of two things
1) there is nothing wrong with marxism...here we are still with our free speech on the net, able to go drink, fish, and buy ferrari's,
or
2) you lot are flat out lying and completely distorting what actual marxism is...comparing a papercut to a severed head

Dishonesty and disinformation only serves to weaken your cause

Tea Parties oppose Marxism/Socialism because it is a failed system which is parasitic and eats the seed corn.

Keep ---king that chicken.
Never gets boring...but seriously, the words are old and boring, why not call it like...Satanism/Murderocracy or something...you already killed the original words into meaningless slogans, and the educated already have dismissed it...time for new scary words I guess.

Communism did not work in the USSR, and Socialism is communism in increments. It's so simple.

And capitalism is corporatism/facism in increments.
If we want to go to the absurd fanatical extreme..sure.
Capitalism = a town center with a string of mom and pop shops, a walmart, or pirates in somolia...I guess depending on what narrative you want, you can define it as any of the above...the preference being the first, the absurd extreme being the last bit.
When people in other nations rally against capitalism, they use the somolia pirate example verses mom and pop shops...why do you think that is? Its because they want to rile the ignorant masses to see it poorly verses clearly.

Lefties keep insisting the problem is all on the Right. Statism is what it is, and both sides have elements of it, but the left is far more the party of communism.

And the right is far more the party of facism.

The confusion comes in when there has been so much synthesising of the two ideologies that the end result appears to be neither side. The End result is the One World Govt.
Which you have said you love.

Yes, I heart it.

Originally posted by Hillbilly123069
I agree with this wholeheartedly. I would like to see a presidential candidates poll myself. Most of the major media polls are bought out by the elite class

...an ats potus candidate poll would be interesting, yep - as long as we have the option to select - no confidence - or - i'd sooner eat maggots than support that moron - or - it doesnt matter who the next potus is - the game is rigged...

reply to post by ThirdEyeofHorus

In fact, that really is the point, socialism cannot exist without the host.

Yes it does but it devolves to "feudalism" where the "Party members" are the lords and everyone else is serfs.

reply to post by crimvelvet


pretty much like how things are right now for us

Originally posted by neo96
reply to post by nenothtu

 

i think im wrong here but once upon a time that platform the teaparty ran on is what liberalism use to be?

smaller government more freedom etc?

Yup, but that was back before the Civil War, in the US. Around the time of the Revolution, and just afterwards. During Reconstruction in the aftermath of the Civil War, the Republicans were the new "liberals", and they were heavy-handed power grabbin' Statists. At that point it was the Democrats trying to maintain the status quo, making them the conservatives of the day. Now, it has flip-flopped again, and doubtless will again in the future.

hard to keep up with without a score card. At the time of the Civil War, the Republicans were a young upstart party, as the tea party is today. Lincoln was their first prez, and look what happened there!

It's sort of a confusing situation, so it's not hard to see how folks are getting the perceptions they are. If by "conservative", one means maintaining the status quo of continuing unabated growth and reach of power of the government, then the Democrats are the "conservatives", yet they self identify as "liberals". If shrinking the government back to the levels that the citizenry enjoyed early last century and bucking against the status quo is what one means by "liberal", then the tea party are liberals, yet they self-identify as conservatives. I personally think that the political landscape is currently in flux, and just hasn't gotten sorted out into the new paradigm yet, so no one really knows WHAT they really are. Instead, they are applying labels out of expediency. Whatever you think YOU are, the "other guy" in opposition to you must be the other thing, right?

I think it will sort out as time goes on, and people map the new political landscape. I've felt this in the wind since 2000, when they suddenly and inexplicably changed the colors representing the parties on state election maps. until 2000, the Republicans were BLUE, and the Democrats were RED, then it suddenly, for no reason given, flipped. Try to imagine my confusion trying to figure out why the "blue states" were suddenly, and without warning, the opposition. The entire time that I was growing up, and beyond, up to 2000, "red" was the color of everything on the left end of the spectrum, from marxists through socialist right up to communists all the way to the Democrats. Suddenly, it was all upside down. Ever heard of the "RED Army" or the "RED Army Band"? They weren't Republicans.

This too will sort itself out and find equilibrium over time.

reply to post by nenothtu


Hi, Nenot, I have enjoyed reading your posts whenever I can find them. I think I can appreciate what you say about finding common ground with those who seem opposite our beliefs. Part of the Hegelian process is to pit one side against the other in order to come up with a synthesis. Antony Sutton calls this "conflict management" and those in power have been employing this method to manage world politics. Case in point....Israel vs Islam. Take two groups of people with a long-term dispute and blow it up even bigger.....now there's really a big disput that begins to involve the rest of the world. The US supports Israel and the USSR and China support Islam. Islam, by the way, chose the Russian side of the axis after WWII. So now you have this sort of line drawn in the sand and there has to be continual conflict management, while TPTB yet are setting up their One World Govt. They can use both sides against each other while continually supporting and financing both sides of the conflict. Antony Sutton talks about this in his book, "America's Secret Establishment".
Also, the communism vs fascism is one of those fake oppositions. The communists present fascism as being far right. In that way, they obscure the fact that fascism is still the left side of the political scale, replete with all the leftist ideology one can enjoy.
What they did now with the parties is to present the Democrats now as left and the Republicans as far right. After the hard core communists turned the Democrat Party into a far left function of its agenda, they began to infiltrate and turn the Republicans. What we call RINOS in the T Party are people who tend to vote with the Democrats but have an R back of their name. They are often viewed as "Moderates". So even when someone like Bush who is really a 3rd Generation Bonesman and a fiscal socialist makes the left mad over the wars, he was accomplishing a lot of things that leftists seem to take pride in. Now the Left comes in in the form of Obama and the wars continue. The left just says oh its because he's a moderate. That is laughable at best.
During the 08 campaign I had this nagging feeling that TPTB let it swing to the left so they could play the Left Hegelian side of the dialogue thereby taking the pressure of the "right" for a while. Meantime, all the same horrid things are continuing, and getting worse by the minute.

And all the people, left and right,and everyone in between are suffering under it all.