The European Witch Hunts Were a Holocaust Against Women

Originally posted by Suspiria
Wth has wicca got to do with any of this?
Since when did some made up crap by Gerald Gardener have any relevance to the real victims of the burning times?

nothing.....but it is definitely connected to the above ^^^ quote by pat robertson

Originally posted by blocula
when you consider these horrible facts that "very young children" and "very old people" and countless others were demonized,de-humanized,hunted and tracked down,captured,brutalized and dragged away,then were raped,starved,had their hands and feet cut off,their breasts and genitals hacked and torn with red hot pincers,arms and legs crushed and pulverized,eyes gouged out,skulls smashed,hair set on fire,boiled in a hellish mixture of oil and water,laid out on the stretching racks,slowly roasted over open flames,hung upside down and beaten,thrashed and throttled with razor tipped leather whips and metal rods,boiling fluids poured down their throats,forced to eat heavily salted fish with no water,fingers and toes crushed,teeth ripped out of their mouths,made to confess being a witch or warlock and turn over the names of imaginary accomplices,then hanged and or burned alive and the families of the victims were actually forced to pay for the rope and wood that was used!! and if they couldnt "pay" the entire family was taken away and their property confiscated!!... all this twisted barbarity,all these beastly,psychotic abominations and a " lot more",occured in almost every country in europe for hundreds of years!! with the willing consent and encouragement of the "holy" clergy and strictly enforced by the rage and fury of demented "bible wielding" popes!! along with the assistance of their "hired" sadistic torturers, judges supreme and witch finder generals...knowing this, its so "painfully obvious" to me that who ever or what ever is "running the show"...is someone or something that is sinister and evil and he,she or it has a large proportion of the people of this world trained and tricked by their continuous believing in,praying to and worshipping of diabolical powers that have manifested themselves on earth and are disguised with the thin veneer of religions and masquerading as their kind and loving gods.....

edit on 4-8-2011 by blocula because: (no reason given)

www.medievality.com... this will verify the graphic descriptions above

reply to post by blocula

who cares when they were written, are we today suppose to be any smarter than the scholars that were alive fifty years ago?........no

that was from the source you provided. it has nothing to do with intelligence, but with available information. the books you're getting numbers from were written on faulty information. i would say that's a problem.

the cathars were killed in a crusade. it wasn't right at all, but it had nothing to do with the witch hunts. it happened more than 200 years prior.

i think the fact that the pope isn't worshiped has been well established. i completely disagree with even having a pope. it leads to corruption.

Originally posted by Bob Sholtz
reply to post by blocula

 

who cares when they were written, are we today suppose to be any smarter than the scholars that were alive fifty years ago?........no

that was from the source you provided. it has nothing to do with intelligence, but with available information. the books you're getting numbers from were written on faulty information. i would say that's a problem.

the cathars were killed in a crusade. it wasn't right at all, but it had nothing to do with the witch hunts. it happened more than 200 years prior.

i think the fact that the pope isn't worshiped has been well established. i completely disagree with even having a pope. it leads to corruption.

"the encyclopedia of witchcraft and demonology" is not faulty information...innocent people have been accused as witches and heritics for quite a long time,burning witches at the stake ebbed and flowed from around the 1100s thru the 1700s and beyond... why was there a crusade against the cathars? because they were killed for being heritics.....gotta love those popes!...such kind and wonderful people!

en.wikipedia.org... witch/heritic is the same thing, so the cathars were killed for the same reasons as the witches were

Originally posted by blocula
en.wikipedia.org... witch/heritic is the same thing, so the cathars were killed for the same reasons as the witches were

sorry its spelled... heretic

Originally posted by blocula

Originally posted by blocula
en.wikipedia.org... witch/heritic is the same thing, so the cathars were killed for the same reasons as the witches were

sorry its spelled... heretic

en.wikipedia.org...

The witch hunts and burnings were a purely Protestant phenomena. The Church's inquisition was created to out Muslims and Jews who pretended to convert to Catholicism in Spain in order to avoid expulsion but never truly converted.

When the Inquisition did try witches, they were court proceeding in which facts had to be presented at trial and most witches were acquitted for lack of evidence. Those that were found guilty were offered the opportunity to repent and be accepted back into the Church with no sanctions imposed.

Witches and The Inquisition

When the Church was at the height of its power (11th-14th centuries) very few witches died. Persecutions did not reach epidemic levels until after the Reformation, when the Catholic Church had lost its position as Europe's indisputable moral authority. Moreover most of the killing was done by secular courts. Church courts tried many witches but they usually imposed non-lethal penalties. A witch might be excommunicated, given penance, or imprisoned, but she was rarely killed. The Inquisition almost invariably pardoned any witch who confessed and repented.

... in York, England, as described by Keith Thomas (Religion and the Decline of Magic). At the height of the Great Hunt (1567-1640) one half of all witchcraft cases brought before church courts were dismissed for lack of evidence. No torture was used, and the accused could clear himself by providing four to eight "compurgators", people who were willing to swear that he wasn't a witch. Only 21% of the cases ended with convictions, and the Church did not impose any kind of corporal or capital punishment.

... Ironically, the worst courts were local courts. ..."Community-based" courts were often virtual slaughterhouses, killing 90% of all accused witches... national courts tended to have professional, trained staff -- men who were less likely to discard important legal safeguards in their haste to see "justice" done.

But what of the Inquisition? For many, the "Inquisition" and the "Burning Times" are virtually synonymous. The myth of the witch-hunting inquisition was built on several assumptions and mistakes, all of which have been overturned in the last twenty-five years.

...a common translation error ... said that a witch was tried "by inquisition"..Later, when historians examined the records in greater detail, they found that the majority did not involve the Inquisition, merely an inquisition ...older and more popular texts (such as Rossell Hope Robbins' Encyclopedia of Witchcraft and Demonology) still have the Inquisition killing witches in times and places where it did not even exist.

...In the 1970's, when feminist and Neo-Pagan authors turned their attention to the witch trials, the Malleus Maleficarum (Hammer of Witches) was the only manual readily available in translation. Authors naively assumed that the book painted an accurate picture of how the Inquisition tried witches. Heinrich Kramer, the text's demented author, was held up as a typical inquisitor. His rather stunning sexual preoccupations were presented as the Church's "official" position on witchcraft. Actually the Inquisition immediately rejected the legal procedures Kramer recommended and censured the inquisitor himself just a few years after the Malleus was published. Secular courts, not inquisitorial ones, resorted to the Malleus.

Source


But hey, don't let me cut in on your Catholic bashing here.

en.wikipedia.org... read this and tell me that the roman catholic churches influence in the witch hunts and inquisitions decreased..."this is simply not true"...they actually increased,pope innocentVIII in the late 1400s issued a papal bull "a new law" that added fury to the witch hunts and increased their severity for almost three hundred years!.....as i posted in an above link,"napoleon" stripped the popes of their supreme powers,until that happened they were seen as gods left hand man

Originally posted by blocula
the witch hunts died off when the victims,under torture,started accusing wealthy nobels of being witches!!!! see it was ok when it was the poor that were being slaughtered but when the finger started getting pointed at the rich people the witch mania began to cease

cant kill any of the beautiful rich people !!! only the poor are tortured and sent to prison and killed off...just like now!

reply to post by FortAnthem

The witch hunts and burnings were a purely Protestant phenomena. The Church's inquisition was created to out Muslims and Jews who pretended to convert to Catholicism in Spain in order to avoid expulsion but never truly converted.

I'm so glad you defend the underlying practices of universal thought suppression by the Catholic(universal) Church. It's not only women who are not allowed to live as they see fit, no one is. Big sigh of relief!!!

The inquisition you speak of here is the Spanish Inquisition.

The Tribunal of the Holy Office of the Inquisition (Spanish: Tribunal del Santo Oficio de la Inquisición), commonly known as the Spanish Inquisition (Inquisición española), was a tribunal established in 1480 by Catholic Monarchs Ferdinand II of Aragon and Isabella I of Castile. It was intended to maintain Catholic orthodoxy in their kingdoms, and to replace the Medieval Inquisition which was under Papal control. The Inquisition was originally intended in large part to ensure the orthodoxy of those who converted from Judaism and Islam. This regulation of the faith of the newly converted was intensified after the royal decrees issued in 1492 and 1501 ordering Jews and Muslims to convert or leave
. . .
not definitively abolished until 1834
From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

So this seems to have been a monarchal move to compete with the preexisting Papal controlled inquisition. There are a few things a person must believe in order to have a feel good attitude about this.

1) The Papacy has the right, nay duty, to bring all human beings on earth under a single religion as dictated by some central authority.
2) A monarch has the right, nay duty, to ensure that all people living under the monarch's territory must be of a single heart and mind,
3) The Monarch has the right, nay duty, to kill or expel any subject person determined to not be in proper mind and soul compliance to orthodox teaching established by a central authority, to wit, no 1).

I'm afraid that many people don't agree with 1) 2) and 3)

Let us further examine this. Outward behavior, comportment, practice, and speech (as in verbal creed) is not sufficient to be allowed to live. The inner faith must be tested to the extreme, torture, to insure the complete internal submission.

Here's the rub; although many good Catholics may claim that they would never renounce their faith, even under torture, they may never get the chance to test it that way. In reality, maybe only 2% or so would be able to do that, withstand extreme torture without breaking and renouncing. That is why only the "suspects" are examined in that way. The "suspects" are those who the Monarch or Papal authority have already decided that society is better off without.

I'm sorry, but I don't have a feel good attitude about that.

Edit to add:

...In the 1970's, when feminist and Neo-Pagan authors turned their attention to the witch trials, the Malleus Maleficarum (Hammer of Witches) was the only manual readily available in translation. Authors naively assumed that the book painted an accurate picture of how the Inquisition tried witches. Heinrich Kramer, the text's demented author, was held up as a typical inquisitor.

Yaaay! It's the "few bad apples" defense. I think we should all recognize that by now, "America does not torture! Some individual broke the law, and will be punished." "The Church did no wrong. Heinrich Kramer was the one guy, and we have condemned his book. Everything is fine."

Originally posted by pthena
reply to post by FortAnthem

The witch hunts and burnings were a purely Protestant phenomena. The Church's inquisition was created to out Muslims and Jews who pretended to convert to Catholicism in Spain in order to avoid expulsion but never truly converted.

I'm so glad you defend the underlying practices of universal thought suppression by the Catholic(universal) Church. It's not only women who are not allowed to live as they see fit, no one is. Big sigh of relief!!!

The inquisition you speak of here is the Spanish Inquisition.

The Tribunal of the Holy Office of the Inquisition (Spanish: Tribunal del Santo Oficio de la Inquisición), commonly known as the Spanish Inquisition (Inquisición española), was a tribunal established in 1480 by Catholic Monarchs Ferdinand II of Aragon and Isabella I of Castile. It was intended to maintain Catholic orthodoxy in their kingdoms, and to replace the Medieval Inquisition which was under Papal control. The Inquisition was originally intended in large part to ensure the orthodoxy of those who converted from Judaism and Islam. This regulation of the faith of the newly converted was intensified after the royal decrees issued in 1492 and 1501 ordering Jews and Muslims to convert or leave
. . .
not definitively abolished until 1834
From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

So this seems to have been a monarchal move to compete with the preexisting Papal controlled inquisition. There are a few things a person must believe in order to have a feel good attitude about this.

1) The Papacy has the right, nay duty, to bring all human beings on earth under a single religion as dictated by some central authority.
2) A monarch has the right, nay duty, to ensure that all people living under the monarch's territory must be of a single heart and mind,
3) The Monarch has the right, nay duty, to kill or expel any subject person determined to not be in proper mind and soul compliance to orthodox teaching established by a central authority, to wit, no 1).

I'm afraid that many people don't agree with 1) 2) and 3)

Let us further examine this. Outward behavior, comportment, practice, and speech (as in verbal creed) is not sufficient to be allowed to live. The inner faith must be tested to the extreme, torture, to insure the complete internal submission.

Here's the rub; although many good Catholics may claim that they would never renounce their faith, even under torture, they may never get the chance to test it that way. In reality, maybe only 2% or so would be able to do that, withstand extreme torture without breaking and renouncing. That is why only the "suspects" are examined in that way. The "suspects" are those who the Monarch or Papal authority have already decided that society is better off without.

I'm sorry, but I don't have a feel good attitude about that.

Edit to add:

...In the 1970's, when feminist and Neo-Pagan authors turned their attention to the witch trials, the Malleus Maleficarum (Hammer of Witches) was the only manual readily available in translation. Authors naively assumed that the book painted an accurate picture of how the Inquisition tried witches. Heinrich Kramer, the text's demented author, was held up as a typical inquisitor.

Yaaay! It's the "few bad apples" defense. I think we should all recognize that by now, "America does not torture! Some individual broke the law, and will be punished."

edit on 5-8-2011 by pthena because: (no reason given)

[/quote very well spoken...thanx for your intelligent response...

reply to post by blocula

thanx for your intelligent response...

You're welcome. Torture and mind control are subjects I've taken a particular interest in of late. Carefully laid out explanation of the underlying motives and assumptions seems the best approach. I'm trying... I'm trying

And thank you for stating the thread. A suitable venue.

Originally posted by blocula
en.wikipedia.org... read this and tell me that the roman catholic churches influence in the witch hunts and inquisitions decreased..."this is simply not true"...they actually increased,pope innocentVIII in the late 1400s issued a papal bull "a new law" that added fury to the witch hunts and increased their severity for almost three hundred years!.....as i posted in an above link,"napoleon" stripped the popes of their supreme powers,until that happened they were seen as gods left hand man

After reading through five pages, I've come to the conclusion that you have an agenda.
You started a thread on witch hunts. Many ATS members have given you correct facts concerning the matter e.g. That many other agents/forces were involved than just the catholic Church. Despite this, every single one of your posts is one big RANT against the Pope/Catholic Church.

Many members have put in a lot of effort, yet all of your posts are just like the one from you directly above.
You don't really want a discussion. Just a chance for you to say the same thing over and over.

=agenda.

reply to post by WhoKnows100


i agree. i was about to reply, but i realized that everything that can be said has been said. she'll keep believing what she wants, and nothing anyone can say will change her opinion.

its sad to leave someone in the dark, but this time its by their own refusal.

all religions have blood on their hands ,but the popes [and there were quite a few between the 1100s and the early 1800s[ are the bloodiest of all,far and away they caused more misery and death on the european continent for hundreds of years then every other ruler combined,thank napoleon for being brave enough to "finally" put them in their place and take away their power,theres not time enough to get into full length discussions about every single religious atrocity,there were dozens and dozens ,so i choose the popes,which is pluralized to mean more than one and they are directly responsible for sending countless men women and children to their doom and they are evil disguised behind a thin veneer of blind faith....so what if i mention them all the time, i can if i feel like it...they were demented psychopaths and this cannot be forgotten...

reply to post by blocula

all religions have blood on their hands ,. . .
theres not time enough to get into full length discussions about every single religious atrocity,there were dozens and dozens ,so i choose the popes, . ..
they are evil disguised behind a thin veneer of blind faith....

This linked with this from previous post:

when the full extent of these horrors are properly understood, we will have to leave our collective denial behind us and open our eyes and minds to the possibility of diabolical intervention. . .

The issue is holocaust denial. It was only a few days ago that the Romani (Gypsies) extermination was officially recognized in the EU.

2nd August – Day of Remembrance of Romani and Sinti extermination
‘It is very important that such a day has been established. And its date was by no means coincidental, because it was on 2nd August 1944 that the Gypsy camp at Auschwitz was liquidated,’ stressed Elżbieta Radziszewska, Government Plenipotentiary for Equal Treatment. The Romani Team will also support the Romani minorities’ efforts to establish a European Romani Extermination Remembrance Day.’

Only 67 years to be recognized. They lacked the political clout that the Jews in particular hold. As far as I know, the largest concentration of Roma now is as third class citizens in Albania.

That thin veneer of blind faith you mentioned is awfully opaque at times, I guess that's why it's called blind faith. Evil wearing a robe of piety, and even not very convincingly, is invisible to the self-blinded.

I read the portion of the papal bull that was in the wikipedia article on Innocent the VIII, sheerest naked superstition. And the pope was just the puppet of some other guy who had furthered his career to become "the most powerful man on Earth".

I'm rambling now because I have some kind of severe cold or something, so I probably should take a break.

Good hunting

Originally posted by pthena
reply to post by blocula

all religions have blood on their hands ,. . .
theres not time enough to get into full length discussions about every single religious atrocity,there were dozens and dozens ,so i choose the popes, . ..
they are evil disguised behind a thin veneer of blind faith....

This linked with this from previous post:

when the full extent of these horrors are properly understood, we will have to leave our collective denial behind us and open our eyes and minds to the possibility of diabolical intervention. . .

The issue is holocaust denial. It was only a few days ago that the Romani (Gypsies) extermination was officially recognized in the EU.

2nd August – Day of Remembrance of Romani and Sinti extermination
‘It is very important that such a day has been established. And its date was by no means coincidental, because it was on 2nd August 1944 that the Gypsy camp at Auschwitz was liquidated,’ stressed Elżbieta Radziszewska, Government Plenipotentiary for Equal Treatment. The Romani Team will also support the Romani minorities’ efforts to establish a European Romani Extermination Remembrance Day.’

Only 67 years to be recognized. They lacked the political clout that the Jews in particular hold. As far as I know, the largest concentration of Roma now is as third class citizens in Albania.

That thin veneer of blind faith you mentioned is awfully opaque at times, I guess that's why it's called blind faith. Evil wearing a robe of piety, and even not very convincingly, is invisible to the self-blinded.

I read the portion of the papal bull that was in the wikipedia article on Innocent the VIII, sheerest naked superstition. And the pope was just the puppet of some other guy who had furthered his career to become "the most powerful man on Earth".

I'm rambling now because I have some kind of severe cold or something, so I probably should take a break.

Good hunting

thanx ,hope you feel better soon... the nazis exterminated homosexuals/lesbians,mentally ill,gypsies,jews,poles,russians...the popes exterminated men women and children from spain,france,portugal,germany,austria,italy,greece,norway,sweden,holand,transylvania,scotland,switzerland,
england,finland,ect,ect

Originally posted by blocula
...how can he botch the fire yet still burn her this makes no sense

People were not really burned, that would be too fast for what they wanted, the fire was kept at some distance around the person, so it would last for several hours, with the person suffering from the extreme heat and dehydration for all those hours before dying.

Paying to the executioner to put the fire to close to burn the person was a common way of making it less of a torture and more of an execution.