Just what IS the purpose of the United States Government?

Ark, you don't have to be Muslim to understand the rot that stands in our country.

The Players
The babies mamas
The marriage crisis
The abortion situation
The need to continue our enflated economy or go bust

The list goes on and on. BUT, another thing about our country is that we provide for the rot to continue on a free market.

What makes us great, also makes us weak. We open ourselves up to corruption willingly.

So there is nothing to do but fight the good fight (which I believe most here are trying to do) and hope that whoever wins has the right idea.

A free exchange of ideas is a great step in curbing the situation. I do think you need to bring your nose down a bit. Islam may be great and all, but there are other good people regardless of religion.

Originally posted by TrueLies


27jd,
Amuk isn't romanticizing, he's trying to restore dignity and truth which was once the foundation of this country, partisanship aside, I don't think it's really unrealistic, brainwashing is a specialty of the media, making you think that the old way is dead and would never work is a LIE... could the media do such a horrible thing? why the hell not, their in bed w/ the left and right.. .wake up. geez... It's bad enough as it is, pull your head out of the toilet and maybe you'll see idealism isn't just a dream, thats how # becomes real...

Romancing an idea, Dr. Atkins started the new low carb WAVE...though this is a health related subject, the theory of romancing an idea could be applied to politics...

My signature belows says what i'm trying to say in a nutshell, if you'd be so inclinded to look...

I know you were looking for another chance to bite my head off, but it was Arkaleus that posted about Amuk romanticizing, I didn't do it. LOL

Amuk very little of what we have as a society today was explicitly laid out in the constituion, however like all legal documents it can not by nature lay out all the things the government can do, only those it can not do.
Yes much more of the governments (federal) duties should be handled at the local level however some things can not be done t this level.
For example maintaining the federal highway system must be done at the federal level.
The F.B.I. in order to coordinate the investigaton of interstate crimes must be a federal institution. Think back to the early 1900s when all a bank robber had to do to escape justice was cross state lines. From my research the foundng fathers orginal intent was closer to the E.U. than the modern day U.S. however our society has evolved into a more closely interconnected nation. I dont think ths is automaticaly a bad thing but I do beleve that the trend has gone too far. While I agree that in many respects the federal government has been granted too much power, the lbertarian view of the federal governments role is skewed too far in the opposite direction IMHO.

Originally posted by 27jd
I know you were looking for another chance to bite my head off, but it was Arkaleus that posted about Amuk romanticizing, I didn't do it. LOL

Well you got me... Your head is so soft and chewy I love a good snack.. I'm sorry, cheap shot... I'll get ya next time around.

Sorry it takes me a while to get back these days, old wounds and arthritis are starting to take a toll and some times it just hurts like a bitch to type or set up very long so forgive me if my posts are kinda clipped.

mwm1331

I think you are correct in that the intention of the Government was to be more along the lines of the EU and it even says that ALL power not spelled out as belonging to the federal government belongs to the states.

I think this CLEARLY shows the intentions of the founding fathers that the federal government was to be as weak as possible.

One thing I have to mention is that there NEVER was a time that all a bank robber had to do was cross a state line to be free they just did not have federal agents to track them, they either used the law in the new state or paid trackers to track them down, hell I used to do it myself its called Bounty Hunting.

Our founding fathers relized that controling anothers life was inheriently evil and open to coruption and was best done as little as possible and at the lowest level possible, state or even community level.

This country was never meant to be the worlds policeman or everyones nanny.

It was intended to be a place where strong, brave men and women could come free from the chains of europes kings to build a life on their OWN terms. It was not intended for those comfortable in their slavery.

I know it was never perfect and never will be but the Ideal of freedom is what we must always strive for.

Ark and 27jd

I relly dont know about yalls arguement and dont really care but neither of you really addressed the question of the thread.

What is the purpose of the united states government.

Answer that question and we can go from there

Sorry Amuk, Ark and I have been engaged in a heated debate in alot of threads over his view that since we do not follow HIS morals, and that we may smoke a joint or that single people may have a consentual one night stand, that we are wretched and evil. Sorry it spilled over into your thread. As for your question, I think the purpose of the government now, is and should be different than the purpose of it originally. As times have changed, so have the needs of governing, so the government our founding fathers intended could not be applied today, there are too many new dynamics they had no way to be aware of. So, I guess it's a rhetorical question, and the purpose of it probably depends on who you ask. One thing is for sure, some purposes it should NOT be serving, are dictating every aspect of our personal lives, pandering to special interests for contributions even if those special interests knowingly harm it's people (i.e. tobacco industry), destroying the environment for money, or playing world cop ONLY when it serves it's interest (we should step into ANY situation where innocent civilians are being murdered, like in the Sudan, not necessarily by putting our troops in the line of fire, but by vicious airstrikes on the offending militias and their bases).

The purpose of the United States!

It is a collection of enlightened, free men who gather together the lands, the people, and the wealth and put it to the greatest good of the population. That's what a government is.

At least, that's what it began as. When those founders made the laws, they gathered themselves together and said, "What is best for us now? What is best for us in the future?" They reasoned among themselves. They were making a framework for a nation, not pandering to corporations. There was an unverstanding of what it meant to be a statemen, it was part of their personality, something that made them REAL.

Here's the spoiler: What made America great was never anything physical. It wasn't the laws, the constitution, or the congress. It was a spirit that lived in those that loved an ideal.

That SPIRIT is what caused greatness to occur. It made the difference between a politican and a statesman. If congress had this spirit, then the laws they made reflected enlightened ideas, and progressive movements for the nation. Without this spirit, they are stuck inthe materialistic world, and their eyes become shut to the greatness.

That spirit has fled out of Washington, and has roosted among the individuals chosen from the people to bear it. I am one of of those people, and there are many of us out there.

That spirit cannot ever get back into Washington again. We have to rebuild it from the beginning by ourselves. That's how it works.

So the question you asked, what America is all about, can only be answered metaphysically, because what you are thinking about does not have anything to do with the physical world. It is the spirit of the ideals of Liberty, Brotherhood, and Law.

Hence our frustration at the current system, because it has sold itself to the material world, and has become bound to it inextricably, and can only be removed by a complete renovation of the government.

So we should begin a new kind of thought among those who can hear this: We need to form a new government among our own selves, and displace the rotten one that has occupied washington. That's the peaceful way to do it.

First step: Disconnect from the corporate dependancies that material desire has led you to. This enables the mind to think more clearly, and does not obligate you anymore to their service. Only free men can vote, remember?

Second step: Stop thinking like democrats and republicans. That's a dead end for any kind of reform. It's merely a treadmill for the established powers. We are a free enough and rich enough people to gather ourselves into any kind of reform we will. All we need is the right kind of leaders to mature and ready themselves for this.

Thrid step: Face the dragon. A new problem has risen up out of the abyss for Americans who want to change things: Corporations. They have become the most powerful force in the land. Overcoming their influence is not easy, because they operate outsiide of any kind of public review, and sometimes outside of the law. Fortunately, we are headed towards economic collaspe because of the behavior of these very same corporations. This will weaken them enough to strike the deathblow.

These folks aren't your friends, guys, they are the worst kind of people. They have no care for anything about the nation, the people, or any philosophy whatsoever. They can't. They are faceless conglomerates of merged personalities, commitees, investors, and banks. They are truly monstrous.

Ark

This is kinda a two parter so I am making it two posts

Originally posted by 27jd
As for your question, I think the purpose of the government now, is and should be different than the purpose of it originally. As times have changed, so have the needs of governing, so the government our founding fathers intended could not be applied today, there are too many new dynamics they had no way to be aware of.

I here this over and over but no one explains it.
What has changed? What do people need now that they did not need in 1776?

Were there not countries looking to harm us then?
How about starving people?
How about abuse overseas? Did that start in the 20th century?
Did computers and jets change human nature?

We totally disagree in that the government our founding fathers intended to me is eternal and not just AS possible today but MORE possible than ever before.

I see it as the world is just now catching up to the ideas that we started and new tech is making true freedom more possible NOW than it was back then.

Originally posted by 27jd
One thing is for sure, some purposes it should NOT be serving, are dictating every aspect of our personal lives, pandering to special interests for contributions even if those special interests knowingly harm it's people (i.e. tobacco industry), destroying the environment for money, or playing world cop ONLY when it serves it's interest (we should step into ANY situation where innocent civilians are being murdered, like in the Sudan, not necessarily by putting our troops in the line of fire, but by vicious airstrikes on the offending militias and their bases).

I agree totally with the first part but here is the kicker

The second is impossible and not even a good idea.

We should have had air strikes against china when it murdered its own?
Is it worth a nuke war to "save" a hand full of people that if they really wanted freedom would TAKE IT just like we did. You are of course free to help the "free the (fill in the blank)" by what ever manner you chose its just not OUR governments problem. That line of reason would soon bring us into war with EVERY other country on Earth.

Remember our hands are not totally clean even in our own home, does Waco or Ruby Ridge ring a bell? Should China have launched an air strike against us?

Not to mention that nowhere does it say ANYTHING about us policing other countries as a matter of fact the army is JUST to protect our boarders. PERIOD.

Originally posted by Arkaleus
The purpose of the United States!

It is a collection of enlightened, free men who gather together the lands, the people, and the wealth and put it to the greatest good of the population. That's what a government is.

At least, that's what it began as.
Ark

Can you show me where this is in ANY part of the Constitution or the Bill of Rights?

What you are talking about, unless I am mistaken is socialisim, which is the FURTHEREST thing from what they wanted.

What they wanted was a country where EVERYONE had a chance to get ahead ON THERE OWN.

Christian, Muslim, Hindu, Jew, even those dope smoking hippies and businessmen you hate so much

Originally posted by Amuk
I here this over and over but no one explains it.
What has changed? What do people need now that they did not need in 1776?

So many things have changed, not just computers and jets. Society has changed, it is not just a bunch of European settlers making laws for small villages and colonies of the same cultural background. We have large complex cities, with large numbers of good people as well as bad. Society has become a giant "matrix" of numeric identities and cultural divisions. The countries that wish us harm can now inflict it with the push of a button, not by sending an army sailing across the sea. It would take forever to list EVERYTHING that has changed, and never once did I say I am content with the government now, I just know there's alot more to America now then there was then, I would like for you to explain to me how you think the government our founding fathers formed could address ALL of today's issues, how is it MORE possible today than it was back then?





[edit on 18-8-2004 by 27jd]

It's time to think in a novel fashion.

DECENTRALIZE THE FEDERAL GOVERNMENT

The whole problem is that we deviated from the original balance of power laid out by the framers. As you might recall from the Madison/Jefferson debates, Jefferson wisely argued agaisnt a strong federal government because he understood the corruption that it would develop. We see this come to its awful fruition today, because ALL the meaningful power has been SIEZED by the federal government after WWII.

That is why the corporations have been able to gain such a strong footing - all the power has been centralized and can be contained.

So the solution seems to be obvious! Just like the trustbusters of the old days, it's time to bust the feds. We don't need the Federal government in its' current form. Technology and commuications have elimited the need. We're too developed now to justify a strong central government. It seems contrary to Liberty to have it be so strong and big.

Why defend it? Why support it? Let it know that it's time is done. It doesn't have any real claim to power. We are the people. We reserve our rights, and we are not going to tolerate the federal government to steal our rights, and then increase the share of the corporations and serve them instead. Down with these corrupted men and women.

Arkaleus

Originally posted by Amuk
We should have had air strikes against china when it murdered its own?

Well, no, here's why, those were not innocent women and children, they were protesting their oppressive government and were likely aware that they could clash with the government, they could have went home any time, they chose not to. Ruby Ridge, was just a f**k up in which they shot the dog, so the son shot at the marshalls, killed one, and got killed himself. Hardly an intentional genocide. And Waco, those people were an anti-government cult, challenging the governments authority, which is a noble cause, but the risks should've been known to them when they took up arms against the government, who gave them the opportunity to surrender, but they chose not too, they were not running for their lives. I am talking about outlaw militias gunning down women and children as they run away, have you ever seen the footage of those murdered in the Sudan or in Liberia? Blind GENOCIDE must be stopped by any decent human beings, how can you oppose helping in these situations? It should not be our job alone however, any civilized nation should assist. As for taking up arms against a government, if somebody is prepared to die for the cause, then they are aware they could be killed, right? What I am referring to is when fleeing civilians are killed out of pure cruelty, women and children raped and murdered. That was not the case at Ruby Ridge, Waco or Tienamen Square.



[edit on 18-8-2004 by 27jd]

Originally posted by 27jd

. Society has changed, it is not just a bunch of European settlers making laws for small villages and colonies of the same cultural background. We have large complex cities, with large numbers of good people as well as bad. The countries that wish us harm can now inflict it with the push of a button, not by sending an army sailing across the sea. I would lke for you to explain to me how you think the government our founding fathers formed could address ALL of today's issues, how is it MORE possible today than it was back then?

I am starting to hurt so I am gonna make this short and finish it tommorow

We have never been from the same culture and it has expanded as we have grown, the worlds people are more alike today than ever before.

I do not understand the point about other countries attacking us the the founding fathers ONLY purpose for a military was to defend our country and I dont see how that would change by returning to there Ideals.

And lastly how is it more possible?

Just take the internet for example for the first time in history the common man can TRULY voice his opinion.

We have mostly been freed from the drudgery of life, just struggling to eat, dont mistake not having a 52 inch TV with watching your children starve to death.

We as a people have grown as to what freedom and acceptance really is.... been to a Witch burning lately? Lynching? Slaughtered any Indian Tribes?

I think you get the Idea I will post more tommorow when my hands are feeling better

Originally posted by Amuk
I am starting to hurt so I am gonna make this short and finish it tommorow

OK, sorry to hear you are in pain.

We have never been from the same culture and it has expanded as we have grown, the worlds people are more alike today than ever before.

I was referring to those who originally colonized being of the same culture, I must disagree about the people of the world today, the gap between the civilized world and the third world seems to be widening more and more IMO.

I do not understand the point about other countries attacking us the the founding fathers ONLY purpose for a military was to defend our country and I dont see how that would change by returning to there Ideals.

My point is, that if we close up and ignore whatever happens in the outside world, only to defend, that could allow a hostile nation to develop into a super-power, and strategically conquer other lands (i.e. Nazi Germany) eventually bringing them to our doorstep, and since they would have rolled over any of our allies by that time, we would have to fight them alone, just like what probably would've happened if Hitler had gone unchecked by us any longer.

Just take the internet for example for the first time in history the common man can TRULY voice his opinion.

Sure, but the problem is EVERYBODY can voice there opinions, and do, and it becomes a flood of opinions in which it is hard to filter the truly brilliant ideas.

We as a people have grown as to what freedom and acceptance really is.... been to a Witch burning lately? Lynching? Slaughtered any Indian Tribes?

These problems still exist, just in different forms, and luckily not as much killing.

I think you get the Idea I will post more tommorow when my hands are feeling better

Cool.

Originally posted by Arkaleus
The purpose of the United States!
It is a collection of enlightened, free men who gather together the lands, the people, and the wealth and put it to the greatest good of the population. That's what a government is.

Whoa, that's the best and worst answer in this thread. The best because it would be sweet. The worst because it is impossible.

Sounds more like true communism to me, to be honest.

Originally posted by KrazyJethro
Sounds more like true communism to me, to be honest.

"True" Communism is the best form of government. But it is impossible due to the fact that everyone in the group must have the "groups" best interest at heart. Doesn't sound like human nature to me. True Communism is imposible due to human nature.

One day a son inherited a farm from his father. His father had made many improvements over the years, adding new structures, planting new crops, bringing in new animals from far and wide.

Thought the son, "I have inherited a fine farm, with many fine things. now what should I do?"

The son, being wise, gathered up his kinsmen and farmhands and sat them down together, and said: "I have come into my inheritance, and now I wish to do what is wise and best for the farm."

The wise son asked about each aspect of the farm, where the water came from, and how irrigation system was maintained, the state of repair of the barns, the granaries, and the fences, and how to mend them, and what kind of crops were doing well this year, and the prices they were fetching at the market.

Alll these things did the wise son do, so that he could inherit the farm well, and increase upon it. He planted the crops that fetched the best prices, kept the best animals and bred them, dug new water supplies and improved the machinery. Wise and prosperous was the son of the farmer, for he learned to manage the whole farm, and every part of it he understood.

The wise son grew old, and his son was to inherit the farm. He taught his son his wise lesson and said: "Son, to please me best, learn every aspect of the farm I give you, so that you might best maintain it, and it will bear you an abundant crop."

But the son of the wise farmer was more interested in the life of the cities, and drunkenness, and loud music, and chased after the girls who lived nearby.

So it came to pass that the wise farmer died, and left his son all that he had. his younger brothers and farmhands came to him like they had come to the wise farmer, expecting the same kind of treatment as the wise farmer had given them.

But the son of the wise farmer didn't seem to care much for learning the details of the farm, but said: "I have friends from the city who are great bankers and marketers, and I have hired consultants and MBAs who are going to make some changes around here."

So these strangers came into the farm, and began firing the farmhands, and replacing them with migrant laborers, who did not love the land, or the crops, or the animals, but worked for %50 less. Then the MBAs came in and spoke about new kinds of business models for the farm, and since soybeans were getting the best prices, began converting all the fields to soybeans, and would not hear any differently.

The unwise son suddenly became very rich, for he had learned well the lesson of money, and had mortgaged the farm, and extended great credit to himself, and then moved to an extravagent life in the city.

Yet the farm that sustained him and all those who worked upon it began to fail, because the migrant workers cared nothing for the place, and were too ignorant to help in anything but picking crops. The businessmen from the city had no idea about the business of planting, or repairing machinery, or how to repair the various parts of the irrigation system or the buildings, so they began to fall into disrepair.

Soon the farm collapsed because the soybean market was flooded, and the speculators lost their investments. The unwise son lost his fortune too, and headed back to the farm so that he might live there and regain his living from his inheritance.

But he found the place in need of repairs, the farmhands had all been fired and replaced with foreign laborers, and he didn't know how to operate any of the machinery, or anything else about the farm for that matter. So the bank came and collected, and the son lost all he had, and fell into bondage to the creditors.

This is the story of the American citizen, and how we inherit Liberty.
What is the government? The government is like the son of the farmer, who gathers up all the men to find out what is best for the farm. The wise son is the man who cherishes Liberty, and is best able to pass it down to his sons.

Arkaleus.

27jd


I am still hurting so this will be another short one

To begin with we have less to worry about from COUNTRIES than the few insane bombers that having an army in every country will not stop and in fact would make things worse. We could arguabley take on the entire world and although we would not win we could turn the planet into a stoneage radioactive hellhole and every country in the world knows it.


Most of what you say the USA should be doing is not our problem but IS the UNs problem, isnt that what it is there for? I would fully support a UN strike force made up of ALL the nations to do just what you stated and even more, like helping third world countries build the needed infrastucture to boost there standrad of living.

But we should just be a member, not the seat of the empire.

The United States Government is for the people of the United States not Iraq, Iran, Mexico, China, etc. It was never meant to be and never can be.


And as for the part about to many people having a say in what is going on is that not the whole idea? If not who decides who gets to speak?

Put out all the ideas, sane and crazy and see which ones will work

[edit on 19-8-2004 by Amuk]