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Repeal minimum wage says the Grouch

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posted on Aug, 2 2011 @ 04:54 PM
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reply to post by galadofwarthethird
 


This system is not great in anyway. In fact I wish we could throw it all out and start again. I have several other ideals but I don't think our current society is evoloved enough to understand.
I have one idea of income based bills so no one is over burdened but that would be the same problem you are referencing. There is no perfect system only better systems and ones that evolve over time. We are stunted in our evolution what used to work no longer works but we can't go backwards either. The question is how do we move forward and give people a better standard of living?
Within our current system there needs to be a minuim wage because without it there would be no protection from companies in regards to income. Can the minuim wage standard be revamped? Sure it can. We don't need to eliminate it 100% because that would leave a lot of room open for expoltation and corruption. Now in this system there is also no maxium wage so a person is not limited. If there was no minuim wage it would take years even decades to make a livable wage.




posted on Aug, 2 2011 @ 04:55 PM
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reply to post by dreamseeker
 





Most average people who are not deep thinkers or fighters simply do not have the enegery to negoiate their own pay. NOt to mention those who have low IQs or lack certian social skills ablities that may not understand 100%. Minuim wage protects the weakest in society. I am not considered the weakest even if I am on disablity.


This, in a nut shell, is the fundamental difference between you and I. I have the utmost faith in people, and have found even those who are absolutely convinced they are not smart or skilled, are smart enough to know what I am talking about. Some agree, others disagree. When it comes to arguing that each person has within them an infinite universe of capabilities and potential, I do not waste my time on those who disagree with me - even in this site where I will engage in disagreement with members, I am not doing so because I believe I can change stubborn minds, I am doing so for all those who read this thread and can find agreement in what I say - I focus on those who agree with me.

To supplement my income I tutor students. Some I charge a pretty penny to do so, others I do pro bono work. All of whom I tutor, are young minds eager to learn, and eager to think! It is one of the true joys to watch eyes light up upon the discovery of a truth, and some form of enlightenment take hold. Tutoring students means I run across some who have been convinced they're just not smart enough. What I excel at, as a tutor, is showing these student just how smart they really are. I do not teach them facts and throw a bunch of data at them, I teach them how to develop their critical thinking skills.

I am good enough at it, that I eventually lose these clients because...well, because they just don't need a tutor any longer! They get to a point where they are confident enough to negotiate with their professors the grades they need and want, and if that professor is some pompous ass who is incompetent and guilty of bad faith, my clients know there is an arbitration system available to them where they can fight for the grade they earned and get it! Every single one of my clients never had any idea this arbitration system was available to them, until I pointed it out.

Now consider that for a moment. I live in L.A., so I have students from several different schools, each one of them shocked to learn an arbitration system is available to them, and all ask me when I first tell them of it, if I am sure. If the school they are attending is a school I have not yet tutored a student in, then of course, no I am not sure, so together we go online and find that arbitration system. Without fail, that arbitration system is found.

Every single one of my clients who have had to rely on the arbitration system have won! Every single one!!

They won because they had a case, and because by the time they used the arbitration system they had learned far more than facts, they had learned that their true worth and value was far more than anyone had ever led them to believe it was. This gives them a distinct advantage, not just in arbitration, but in life. However, the advantage in arbitration is that their foolish professors are easily undone under the arbitration system because it is they, not my clients, who are unprepared, usually because of their own profound arrogance.

Even though I can only read your words, and cannot see your face, I have read enough of your posts, that I can see the light in your eyes. Do not let that light be distinguished! You can change your circumstances. You can improve your lot in life. I believe in you!

Will it be easy? Absolutely not! Can you overcome? Absolutely!



posted on Aug, 2 2011 @ 05:01 PM
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reply to post by Jean Paul Zodeaux
 


I believe people can overcome anything if they truly want to. I believe in the power of the indivual at the same time I have seen how society as strangled the indivual. I always encourage my neices/nephews to set high goals for themselves and try to achieve them in a healthy way. I believe in the strength of the indivual and challenging the indivual not overwhelming them.
I am a bit jaded by my experiences but if I am not realistic then I am a fool. Fools don't get very far in life. I never would say minium wage is the best someone can do but there some people who lack drive etc. That does not mean to give up on those people.
edit on 2-8-2011 by dreamseeker because: (no reason given)



posted on Aug, 2 2011 @ 05:12 PM
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reply to post by dreamseeker
 





I never would say minium wage is the best someone can do but there some people who lack drive etc. That does not mean to give up on those people.


Nor does it mean we should empower government to intrude into the private contracts of individuals and regulate that. This is not the answer, and only fools buy into benign governments. It has always been the nature of government to aggregate power. A wise society - if there is such a thing - will do all it can to restrain this aggregation of power, for the wise understand that power corrupts, and absolute power corrupts absolutely.



posted on Aug, 2 2011 @ 05:17 PM
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Originally posted by Chewingonmushrooms
Sure as long as you yourself do the time. It's no different from the war hawks that want to wage wars but can't fathom the thought of fighting in one themselves. You work in sweat shops at pennies of the dollar bringing someone else wealth with your blood sweat and tears, until you are willing to "put up" I, for one, wouldn't take anything you say seriously especially something as UnAmerican as repealing the minimum wage .


You think by eliminating minimum wage we would work in sweatshops for pennies? Would anybody work that job? Maybe someone would and why not? He's choosing to. What the govt is doing is telling businesses how to run their companies which is wrong. Minimum wage goes up which means they are forced to pay someone for a job that is worth less than $7 an hour. This means that they don't have enough money to hire more people for jobs because they can't afford to pay the workers. It doesn't work and unemployment has gone up because of it



posted on Aug, 2 2011 @ 05:26 PM
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reply to post by Jean Paul Zodeaux
 


That is the very defintion of sub contracting. In fact most companies have the option of sub contracting so if companies wanted to go that route than they can. The government does not intefere with those private contracts to the sub contractors determent unforunately.
Do you think if given the option of setting their owns wages that companies would do the right thing and pay a decent wage?



posted on Aug, 2 2011 @ 05:35 PM
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reply to post by dreamseeker
 





Do you think if given the option of setting their owns wages that companies would do the right thing and pay a decent wage?


Some will, some will not. The world is filled with saints and sinners, and everyone in between. In a free and unregulated market place, the wise - those who have no ambition to run their own business - will avoid low paying jobs like the plague. If most people do this, regardless of whether they are saints or sinners, business owners will wind up offering more just to meet their demand.

Laissez faire does not mean screw over everyone you can, it literally mean "let do". Let the market do what it will do.



posted on Aug, 2 2011 @ 05:45 PM
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reply to post by Jean Paul Zodeaux
 


I have heard of Laissez faire captilism Ayn Rand was a big propent of that. That is a french term. I am afriand of the majority who will not pay good wages. I don't really support laissez faire capitilism myself because I believe if you just let things run its natural course there could be negative concequences.



posted on Aug, 2 2011 @ 05:45 PM
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Originally posted by Jean Paul Zodeaux
reply to post by dreamseeker
 





Do you think if given the option of setting their owns wages that companies would do the right thing and pay a decent wage?


Some will, some will not. The world is filled with saints and sinners, and everyone in between. In a free and unregulated market place, the wise - those who have no ambition to run their own business - will avoid low paying jobs like the plague. If most people do this, regardless of whether they are saints or sinners, business owners will wind up offering more just to meet their demand.

Laissez faire does not mean screw over everyone you can, it literally mean "let do". Let the market do what it will do.



I can destroy this argument in one word: WalMart. Walmart treats its employees like #, wont allow them to unionize, forces them to work unpaid overtime or be fired, the list goes on....but there are literally more applicant than jobs to work there. Why? Because everyone is stupid? Well, partly, yes, but mostly because we all need money to live.

Factory work, generally unskilled labor, pays a fraction of what it did in the 70s. Meanwhile, CEOs and executives pay has skyrocketed. Isnt this the Randians wet dream? But they want more and more and more.



posted on Aug, 2 2011 @ 05:47 PM
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Originally posted by dreamseeker
reply to post by Jean Paul Zodeaux
 


I have heard of Laissez faire captilism Ayn Rand was a big propent of that. That is a french term. I am afriand of the majority who will not pay good wages. I don't really support laissez faire capitilism myself because I believe if you just let things run its natural course there could be negative concequences.


We tried laissez faire capitalism in the 1800s and early 1900s. It led to the rise of robber barons, unsafe workplaces and low wages. Thats why we started enacting regulations to begin with. It makes no sense to me that people want to go back to the time of children working in coal mines and women sewing shirts for 3 cents a day.

Stupid is as stupid does.



posted on Aug, 2 2011 @ 05:51 PM
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Originally posted by dreamseeker
reply to post by Jean Paul Zodeaux
 


I have heard of Laissez faire captilism Ayn Rand was a big propent of that. That is a french term. I am afriand of the majority who will not pay good wages. I don't really support laissez faire capitilism myself because I believe if you just let things run its natural course there could be negative concequences.


Really? Do you think if nature runs its natural course there will be negative consequences?



posted on Aug, 2 2011 @ 05:52 PM
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reply to post by aching_knuckles
 


That is what I am more afraid of. Back in the earlier days people had it pretty rough. African Americans were slaves, women had no right to vote or own land. Laws were implemented to force people to evolve and to try humans better. If certian laws were never implemented in the first place society would never evolve. Even though I only live be one rule is do no harm we need standards in place to protect others from doing harm.



posted on Aug, 2 2011 @ 05:53 PM
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reply to post by aching_knuckles
 





I can destroy this argument in one word: WalMart.


Ironically, all you've accomplished is destroying your own argument. WalMart is not laissez faire capitalism, but is a product of a heavily regulated market that has allowed corporatism to flourish.

Corporatists love people like you. For them, you are one of their useful idiots.



posted on Aug, 2 2011 @ 05:54 PM
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reply to post by Jean Paul Zodeaux
 

Yes it is simple entorpy. It is the choas theory everything goes from order to disorder. That is why we have to have set standards in place to protect the indivual. Nature is very choatic; whether it be human nature, or the nature of society/humanity.



posted on Aug, 2 2011 @ 05:57 PM
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Originally posted by Jean Paul Zodeaux
reply to post by aching_knuckles
 





I can destroy this argument in one word: WalMart.


Ironically, all you've accomplished is destroying your own argument. WalMart is not laissez faire capitalism, but is a product of a heavily regulated market that has allowed corporatism to flourish.

Corporatists love people like you. For them, you are one of their useful idiots.



Fine, go back further in time. The factories in the early 1900s were horrific places, and much the same deal. Why did our ancestors work 12 hour days in horrible conditions? Why not just keep on farming?

ETA: Just who is the useful idiot? Me, who wants limits on corporate powers, or people like you, that argue to give the corporations unrestricted power and freedom? Which do you think the corporations want more?
edit on 2-8-2011 by aching_knuckles because: (no reason given)



posted on Aug, 2 2011 @ 06:00 PM
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Minimum wage goes up which means they are forced to pay someone for a job that is worth less than $7 an hour.
reply to post by markrob23
 



What job is worth less then 7 dollars an hour?

Picking fruit? The illegals got that covered, that money
goes far in mexico where they live and a gringo would get
murdered...



posted on Aug, 2 2011 @ 06:08 PM
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How do we put a worth on labor? If we value it by how hard someone works than those fruit pickers would make a lot of money? The problem is value is relative. If a company values their fruit pickers less who work longer hours and harder than they may only pay them $1 per hour. Minuim wage isn't perfect but is a whole lot better than working someone to death for not enough money to live on.
edit on 2-8-2011 by dreamseeker because: (no reason given)



posted on Aug, 2 2011 @ 06:17 PM
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Originally posted by dreamseeker
How do we put a worth on labor?


This is the problem, isnt it? Our "big boss man" is bitching at us, saying we need to work faster to get more units out. He could cut his pay in half and hire three more people at my salary and product would be flying out the door. But he doesnt want just more product...he wants more and more product at the same price, while never having to make any sacrifices himself.

Somehow, the company thinks he needs to be compensated over 150k a year to drink coffee and find things to bitch about, and he never even worked on the production floor, hes a bean counter. Hes never worked a real day in his life, does he deserve 8x the salary of the people actually making the product?



posted on Aug, 2 2011 @ 06:20 PM
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reply to post by aching_knuckles
 





Fine, go back further in time. The factories in the early 1900s were horrific places, and much the same deal. Why did our ancestors work 12 hour days in horrible conditions? Why not just keep on farming?


Quit pretending like an entire populace was helplessly trapped in industrial jobs working 12 hours a day, and that no one was farming then. Of course, ask the independent farmer how they're doing today up against the corporate farm. Got to love that Monsanto corporation, no?

Also, quit pretending like there are not people today working 12 hour days, and some in horrible conditions. If your vaunted government intrusion was so effective the why did I easily find this article?


People who regularly work long hours may be significantly increasing their risk of developing heart disease, the world's biggest killer, British scientists said Monday.

Researchers said a long-term study showed that working more than 11 hours a day increased the risk of heart disease by 67 percent, compared with working a standard 7 to 8 hours a day.


Or this article?


Americans work longer hours than nearly anyone in the developed world, even the Japanese. For many professionals and corporate managers, the 40-hour work week is history; 60- to 80-hour work weeks are now the norm.


Or this article, or this one, this one,, and this article?

All of these articles I just linked are reflective of a heavily regulated market place where the minimum wage is firmly in place.



posted on Aug, 2 2011 @ 06:26 PM
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reply to post by aching_knuckles
 





ETA: Just who is the useful idiot? Me, who wants limits on corporate powers, or people like you, that argue to give the corporations unrestricted power and freedom? Which do you think the corporations want more?


More pretense from the poster who has never once bothered to post anything in the thread I created called Killing Korporations. That thread was largely ignored, and most assuredly ignored by the so called "anti corporatists". Why? I can only guess, and that guess is that no one wants to do away with the evil corporation, because then what would they have to whine about?

Who is the useful idiot? It is fairly argued a smart guy would have restrained from your imprudent remarks until finding out for certain where my ideology lies, and how tirelessly I have worked at fighting corporatism. But hey, idiots have their uses.



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