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Repeal minimum wage says the Grouch

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posted on Aug, 2 2011 @ 03:46 PM
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reply to post by MrXYZ
 


I am not saying unions or collective bargaining should not be allowed, that is fully possible under NIT and no minimum wage law. But you should not be criminalised as an individual for voluntarily agreeing on any wage with your employer.

Any society which criminalises mutualy voluntary interactions between two consenting adults is barbaric. This includes criminalisation of wage contracts below the minimum wage (NIT welfare ensures this contract is truly voluntary from both sides, so it fulfills the definition). This results in forced unemployment and hampers economic growth, in addition for it being very immoral.
edit on 2/8/11 by Maslo because: (no reason given)




posted on Aug, 2 2011 @ 03:47 PM
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reply to post by Jean Paul Zodeaux
 


Please prove it to me. In my experience companies want it all their way. I have already presented you one scenerio. Let me present you with further testimonal. I have a disablity and I was told I had to move because the apartment did not want to accomendate me. My immune disorder causes me to be very weak, with a bad ankle and knee. I simply asked for reasonable accomendation under the Americans with disablity act. I asked to have desginated parking space that I would pay a small amount for each month that would be reserved for me. I typed this in a formal business letter citing the apporiate law.
They told they would not make those accomendations and to meet with the manager. I meet with her and I had a well thought out presntation. She was caught off guard by this and told me I had to leave because there are no negoations. I sat there peacefully then she started yelling and called the police because I wanted to neogiate. I ended up moving and had to hire a mediator even thought I could communicate on my own the manager would not accept my calls.
I was not given a chance of negoiation.
Another time my TV from best buy was ruined due to a power surge that was covered under the geek squad. The guy came out and said sorry it was not covered. I asked for the managers number and called willing to compromise. I suggested since you refuse to repair my TV under the warrenty then I want best buy to come and take the TV so I do not have to make the payments every month. Of course they did not like this. I presented a total of 5 compromises. I ended up losing in the end. Not because I did not have good suggestions but because "policies" prevented them from neogoiating with me.
edit on 2-8-2011 by dreamseeker because: (no reason given)



posted on Aug, 2 2011 @ 03:49 PM
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reply to post by dreamseeker
 





Please prove it to me.


That's right, ignore the links I just provided you and pretend that you are helpless soul who can't do a thing without government acting on your behalf. Go back to page 10 and read the articles I linked, for Christ sakes!



posted on Aug, 2 2011 @ 03:52 PM
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reply to post by Jean Paul Zodeaux
 


The way I do it used to work. That is how I know it should work in theory. I have people admit to me that policy permits them from allowing such things and if it were up to them they would work with me. I believe them; maybe not everyone but I can tell when someone is being sincere.



posted on Aug, 2 2011 @ 03:56 PM
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reply to post by Jean Paul Zodeaux
 


I looked at your web sites and they are good tips that I have used before. I have done research in my feild and $15 per hour is standard. Not only that but I ask to set up a meeting and in that meeting I have a well laid out plan. I first present them with why I deserve a raise in pay and what value have given to the company. I am usually cut off in the begginning with there is no one to talk to about this or this is non negoitable. I went so far to lose a sub contracting job trying to begin the neogiation process.



posted on Aug, 2 2011 @ 03:56 PM
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Originally posted by dreamseeker
reply to post by Jean Paul Zodeaux
 


The way I do it used to work. That is how I know it should work in theory. I have people admit to me that policy permits them from allowing such things and if it were up to them they would work with me. I believe them; maybe not everyone but I can tell when someone is being sincere.


That's right keep ignoring the links I provided you and desperately fight for your right to be helpless. That's a grand strategy.



posted on Aug, 2 2011 @ 03:57 PM
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reply to post by Jean Paul Zodeaux
 





You keep repeating this nonsensical mantra ad nauseum, but it is just not true. If a low paying job is suppressing a persons living condition, and forcing that person to work more hours than their physical body can comfortably handle, it follows that they are not truly "contributing" much at all and nothing at all would at least give them some needed time and rest to reevaluate their life strategies.


The question as always comes down to options. And in this society they do not have the option of not working for the system.



Earlier you quoted Ayn Rand, but I wonder just how much you understand about her philosophy. While John Galt worked on the rails for Taggert Transcontinental, and it was never made clear how much he was paid to work for Taggert Transcontinental, it is fairly presumed he was paid a might better than just a little, but even if it was a little, it really didn't matter to Galt who owned Galt Gulch and started his own damn economy. John Galt was clearly well off, as was all the other protagonists of Atlas Shrugged.


All the protagonists and heroes in Ayn Rands books and philosophy never really had any real problems. They were all just spoiled rich kids basically who had to make up silly problems for them to overcome. And when you have to make up something to overcome that means you have nothing to overcome. They were all well off.


Ayn Rand never advocated that people work for a paltry amount of money so they can "contribute". Ayn Rand advocated we all flourish and prosper, and that ain't gonna happen for the poor souls who take your advise of working for just a little, rather than nothing.

Ah but that's the thing, options. You think they have the option to opt out of the system and do nothing. But they do not even have that option. The invisible chains and guns pointing at there heads are everywhere.


hile I am a huge fan of Ayn Rand, she and I part ways on our perception of Eastern philosophies. She apparently thought that Zen was translated literally to mean "no thought".


Really, she had no clue whatsoever what eastern philosophies are about or what "no thought' means.


understand how this translation would rankle her, but Zen does no mean "no thought", but more correctly is translated into meaning "the way of the small thought", which is to say an intense focus.

It actually means that, and also actual no thought as in no thinking at all. For you see thinking gets in the way of knowing. Some things are pretty simple yet people just make them more complicated then they should be, and when you erase all the extra voices screaming in the ether then you see and hear more clearly what there screaming about.


All people have the right to do what they can to lawfully flourish and prosper. Working hard for very little will not - by any stretch of the imagination - lead to flourishing and prospering.

The system is way more complicated then that, and to assume that they actually have that option is underestimating what the system actually is. Because they do not have that option, and very few people do, and of those that do none of them are the rich.

edit on 2-8-2011 by galadofwarthethird because: (no reason given)



posted on Aug, 2 2011 @ 03:57 PM
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reply to post by Jean Paul Zodeaux
 


read my response above. Lets get back on topic to the minuim wage issue. This is not about my ablity to neogiate but about whether or not the minuim wage should be repealed.
edit on 2-8-2011 by dreamseeker because: (no reason given)



posted on Aug, 2 2011 @ 03:59 PM
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Originally posted by dreamseeker
reply to post by Jean Paul Zodeaux
 


I looked at your web sites and they are good tips that I have used before. I have done research in my feild and $15 per hour is standard. Not only that but I ask to set up a meeting and in that meeting I have a well laid out plan. I first present them with why I deserve a raise in pay and what value have given to the company. I am usually cut off in the begginning with there is no one to talk to about this or this is non negoitable. I went so far to lose a sub contracting job trying to begin the neogiation process.


Look, if your worth and value demand negotiation of a better price for your services, then you did not lose a sub contracting job, they lost a great service!

I have been metaphorically biting my tongue with you, but didn't you tell us that you are a life coach? Just what the hell are you coaching people?



posted on Aug, 2 2011 @ 04:02 PM
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Originally posted by dreamseeker
reply to post by Jean Paul Zodeaux
 


read my response above. Lets get back on topic to the minuim wage issue. This is not about my ablity to neogiate but about whether or not the minuim wage should be repealed.
edit on 2-8-2011 by dreamseeker because: (no reason given)


The topic being the repeal of minimum wage laws goes hand in hand with negotiation, and as long as your willing to stop posting bull crap propaganda that negotiation is impossible in society, then I am willing to let this go, but I sure as hell will not sit by and watch people plaster that kind of nonsensical propaganda without speaking to it.



posted on Aug, 2 2011 @ 04:05 PM
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Originally posted by Maslo
Some countries with no minimum wage law:

Austria
Switzerland
Denmark
Italy
Liechtenstien
Norway
Singapore
Sweden
Germany, Island (these two have kinda mixed atypical system)


these except for singapore are socialist states.
even if you dont work they will take care of you



posted on Aug, 2 2011 @ 04:11 PM
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reply to post by Jean Paul Zodeaux
 

www.npconnect.org...
"This is a temporary, hourly non-exempt position. There will be no benefits offered. The pay is $10 per hour, and this is non-negotiable. "
Here is an example of non-negotiable pay. I even called the lady and asked if I have more qualfications could ask for more she said no.
This is coming from my personal experience and friends/family members. This is not coming from a web site but real life. Please share with me your experiences.
The lady I spoke with even said that in this job market pay is not neogitable.
Yes I am a consultant /coach for an adult business. I am coaching people over the phone on how to live our their fanataises. This is what it is considered. I used to be a phone actress but I was then introduced to this concept through someone in my previous company.
My life coaching business focuses helping people obtain goals using a step by step process. If someone wants to find a job I help them build a resume brush up on interveiw skills etc.
I used to be a supervisor at a market research company and have had experience in hiring/management so I know what employers are looking for.
As far as my current contracts this as close as I could find to coaching. I am just trying to get my foot in the door.



posted on Aug, 2 2011 @ 04:11 PM
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double post somehow? sorry?.
edit on 2-8-2011 by dreamseeker because: (no reason given)



posted on Aug, 2 2011 @ 04:15 PM
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reply to post by Jean Paul Zodeaux
 


The problem here is I firmly believe in negotation and the reality is it is very hard to come by. I am not trying to spread propganda because that usually entails lying. I am speaking the truth from my experience. Everyone's experiences may be different. If you are able to neogiate for whatever you want in life than that is great. So far you have offered no proof that is why I wanted to move back to the orginal topic. I do see the connection but is a mute point as far as minuim wage goes,.



posted on Aug, 2 2011 @ 04:16 PM
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The minimum wage itself is very indicative of what is wrong in our society.

The politicians keep it because getting rid of it would be political suicide for whoever is involved, due to an uninformed populace.

Big Business keeps it, because it strengthens their monopolies; smaller companies can't afford to hire and therefore grow into decent competition. And lets face it, some minimum wage jobs simply aren't worth as much pay as others, and if a job isn't worth paying minumum wage the company will be that much more reluctant to hire.

And guess what? The populace in general would benefit. Companies would be able to hire more people, and jobs would become commonplace, something that is sadly removed from the current situation. Smaller businesses would have more money to spend and increased chance of growth, promoting competition, and the lowered prices for consumers as a result. Starting a business itself would be that much easier and more attainable, further promoting healthy economic competition.



posted on Aug, 2 2011 @ 04:17 PM
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Originally posted by RRokkyy

Originally posted by Maslo
Some countries with no minimum wage law:

Austria
Switzerland
Denmark
Italy
Liechtenstien
Norway
Singapore
Sweden
Germany, Island (these two have kinda mixed atypical system)


these except for singapore are socialist states.
even if you dont work they will take care of you


Yes, thats how it should be.



posted on Aug, 2 2011 @ 04:25 PM
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Can someone prove to me that if we got rid of minuim wage then we would have a higher standard of living for all including the poor. For me prices would have to go down first in order for me to ever agree to such a concept of no minuim wage.
Show me some documented examples where a person makes a HIGHER wage because there is no minuim wage.



posted on Aug, 2 2011 @ 04:27 PM
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reply to post by dreamseeker
 





This is coming from my personal experience and friends/family members. This is not coming from a web site but real life. Please share with me your experiences.


Then change your personal experience!

I walked away from a job I had for more than fifteen years, almost three years ago. I had negotiated several pay raises before I walked away, but also watched this company do some remarkably stupid things. I kept predicting the hard times to come and passionately arguing with the owner to make necessary changes to prepare for these hard times, but he felt he was a successful business man and kept telling me; "If it ain't broke, then don't fix it."

Before I quit, he wound up selling his business for a song and a prayer because he one day woke up and realized his business was broke. The new owner wanted to negotiate with me, but in the wrong direction. I refused and kept walking away, but he needed me. So, he had to meet my terms as long as I was willing to work for him, but in the end it was clear I was working for an idiot, and so I finally walked away and started my own business. That company no longer exists.

I am a one man operation and am constantly negotiating. I peruse sites everyday for new work and new clients, and I read plenty of postings that insist that what they are offering is non negotiable. I don't reply to postings like that. Why the hell should I?

I had very little in the way of savings when I walked away, and the economy being what it is, I have found myself struggling just like anyone else. In fact, there is a member in this site who has posted in this thread, who knows me personally and knows full well how I struggle. He and I rarely agree in this site, but we are very close friends, and I believe in him as much as he believes in me. We stay in close communication because we intend we are working together to form our own business...our own empire.

We rarely agree on politics, but this doesn't matter, because what we most assuredly agree on is that we both have the absolute right to flourish and prosper, and we respect and admire each other enough to know that together we make an unbeatable team. We are still in a development stage, he and I, but neither one of us doubt that together we will create a successful business, so we keep endeavoring to persevere.

The hard times can no doubt be daunting, and some days it is hard to be grateful for all I have, because what I have right now is little, but I do have my craft, my skill, and most importantly my will, and even on the bad days it doesn't take me long to realize life is good. Life is certainly far better today, even though I am making less than I was when I worked for that insane company, than when I was working for them. Of course, had I not walked away for fear I could not survive, now that they are defunct, where the hell would I be? On the unemployment lines? Whining with all the others about how I need government to help me? No thank you!



posted on Aug, 2 2011 @ 04:37 PM
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reply to post by Jean Paul Zodeaux
 


I can't really change it now. I see where you are coming from and I understand your position. For me walking away if not negoation but failure of a negoation. Life is very hard and we have to make tough choices. 15 years a go life was quite different so I am sure negoations were easier back then.
I would love to find companies who share my ideals of coperative, democratic employment partnerships. Where all employees have a voice and as equal voice as possible. I want to find those companies to work with who believe in negoations but where do I find said companies? I started sub contracting work because I wanted more control but in the end the contracts are very rigid.
I am smart and have learned alot. I am only 36 and I am still learning. I do respect your ideas but I think you and I come from much different experiences. It is probably a generational issue or experience issue. I believe you and I have common ground but we do not have to agree. I simply feel that idealism is great but it does not always equate over in reality. You have no idea how much I want your belief that neogiations still works to be true. It breaks my heart I am willing to keep trying though.
Most average people who are not deep thinkers or fighters simply do not have the enegery to negoiate their own pay. NOt to mention those who have low IQs or lack certian social skills ablities that may not understand 100%. Minuim wage protects the weakest in society. I am not considered the weakest even if I am on disablity.



posted on Aug, 2 2011 @ 04:39 PM
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Originally posted by dreamseeker
reply to post by galadofwarthethird
 


What they need to do is set minuim wage to the cost of living. The real cost of living; such as rent costs, food costs etc. If prices increase than the minuim wage does as well. If it takes $10 an hour to rent a decent apartment for that area than that is what the minuim wage is.


Setting a minimum to the cost of living is one of the worst things you can do. Unless your on top of the pyramid then living and the cost of living, will go up and down, and from side to side every once in a while, nothing will ever have the same or cost that it had a year before or even what it cost yesterday.

So who gets to put up this minimum to the cost of living? Who gets to set up the rules that enforce it? When everything is transitory how can you expect it to always be set in stone, what something will cost and require form one period to another will never be the same. And so the only thing that it will come to in the end is those who control it will be better off then those who don't.

What would be better is to split form the this whole system and create an independent system within this one, so that way there will always be something you can go back to if required. Really the whole thing is crap and it would be better to think in new way and do something else completely. Or you can keep doing as you all have always done, and see what the results are this time.

I will give a prediction on that. Same as they were last time.



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