Repeal minimum wage says the Grouch

Originally posted by MrXYZ
reply to post by Jean Paul Zodeaux

 

People have the right to contract without any unwarranted government intrusion. You suggest that removing minimum wage requirements would bring about abject poverty for millions.

So are you for collective bargaining and unions? Because without them, a single person obviously stands ZERO chance at successfully negotiating a contract if minimum wages are gone...especially if they lack higher education.

No you are for collective bargaining and unions and are trying to put words in my mouth. You are grossly mistaken that an individual stands "ZERO" chance at successfully negotiating a contract if minimum wage is gone.

It makes perfect sense that a pro union poster would speak so derisively of individuals and insist that individuals cannot do what they need without this vaunted collective of yours.

Unions have endeavored to assist government and corporatism in shutting out individuals from the market place, and that ain't a good thing by any stretch of the imagination.

reply to post by davidgrouchy

Repeal minimum wage says the Grouch,

Sure why not. But only as long as you get paid what the job you do is worth.

Ah! But that will never happen because those at the top then will lose massive profits if they actually paid what a job is worth. And so the war for the sheeples minds continues.

Your all so busy fighting for your minimum wages, that you don't see that minimum wages are not livable and are not there to help you, all the talk is just that...talk.

The politics of it is how to keep the slaves happy enough so that they don't know that there getting robed left and right, but not to happy or see that they don't have to much free time because then they might start thinking for themselves, and not listening and doing what comes down the wire.

So what has come down the wire this time?

What they should be arguing about is, who gets to set the minimum wages?.....And you can guess who that will be, the rich, the corporations, and those who want to make a killing in profits of the backs of others.

The whole thing is a complete mind trip. Its amazing to see the idiocies and ignorance of all you sheeple. Your still fighting over who gets to # you over, and stuff that does not matter. Anything and everything coming out of the machine is for the machines good, not yours. And the talking heads are just mouth pieces of the propagation machine.

Think twice and look both ways before crossing this road.

And for those who say that third world countries dont have minimus wages. They do, only there minumum wage is lower then the sheeple on this side of the ocean. Why you ask? Because those who get to set the minimum wages can set them, and so they set them to what they are worth to them.

This war is always going on, and some people just don't have a clue. So much so the clueless in fact, that they do and act against there best interests.

And so the question is not what is the minimum wage? And should we get rid of it. But, more importantly. Who get's to set the minimum on your labors, when it it enforced by the law and the masses. The important questions and things that matter you will almost never see them coming down the wire.

If minuim wage was gone how would that change the employers? What would make them suddenly want to neogiate wages when they have never done so before? With my sub contracting job if I have a lawyer I might be able to neogiate the contract terms. As I qualfied before in a previous post I have the skills and education needed to neogaite a contract. I know how to do it and could do it if they even were willing to to allow that. I have never worked for a company that was willing to neogiate on anything after 2001.

Originally posted by Maslo
reply to post by Undertough

 

en.wikipedia.org...

A negative income tax is intended to create a single system that would not only pay for government, but would also fulfill the social goal of making sure that there was a minimum level of income for all. It is theorized that, with an NIT, the need for minimum wage, food stamps, welfare, social security programs and other government assistance programs could be eliminated, thus reducing the administrative effort and cost to a fraction of what it is under the current system, as well as eliminating the perverse incentives created by these overlapping aid programs, e.g. when a minimum wage worker who earns a little more nets out with less income because he is newly ineligible for aid. The worker is stuck in a welfare trap and has no incentive to seek higher wages.

A NIT does not disrupt low-wage markets, whereas a minimum wage makes certain very low end jobs impossible (as anyone whose labour is valued at less than the minimum wage must be unemployed). A NIT would therefore increase the availability of cheap labour, which would enable businesses to do domestically some of the work which they would otherwise have to outsource to other countries.

There is also answer to MrXYZ outsourcing fears.

The problem is that minimum wages are so incredibly low, they create working poors, and guess what, your NIT doesn't really solve that issue at all

Also, in reality, how likely do you think it is that all tax loopholes are closed given how politics work in the US? There is now way in hell companies will ever let it get that far

I want you to go to companies and say: "Soooooo...we're gonna have to introduce negative taxing now, but someone has to cover the costs. We can't ask the private tax payer to cover it, so you'll foot the bill. Thanks guys."

How well do you think that would go?

NIT is just like communism, it might work on paper, but in practice, it would end in disaster.

I wouldn't be opposed to countrywide boycotting/self sanctioning from any country that doesn't have minimum wage standards in place, then we only do business with other countrys on a equal level, we do not import anything that does not adopt the standards, and either they can join us, or wither away into dust

Also any corporation found using labor in a country that is not with the minimum wage standards should have their business license revoked and unable to carry out business with the countrys that are united.


But it doesn't matter anyhow, all the jobs that went to china are now going to be going to robots in the next 3 years...hard to compete with some chinese worker making 4 bucks a day? wait till you try to compete with a robot making nothing a day and works 24/7.

Time for us to restructure our society...you cannot stop this, there is no sandals in the gears moment, its over...time to have a real conversation about society now.

reply to post by galadofwarthethird


What they need to do is set minuim wage to the cost of living. The real cost of living; such as rent costs, food costs etc. If prices increase than the minuim wage does as well. If it takes $10 an hour to rent a decent apartment for that area than that is what the minuim wage is.

Originally posted by Jean Paul Zodeaux

Originally posted by MrXYZ
reply to post by Jean Paul Zodeaux

 

People have the right to contract without any unwarranted government intrusion. You suggest that removing minimum wage requirements would bring about abject poverty for millions.

So are you for collective bargaining and unions? Because without them, a single person obviously stands ZERO chance at successfully negotiating a contract if minimum wages are gone...especially if they lack higher education.

No you are for collective bargaining and unions and are trying to put words in my mouth. You are grossly mistaken that an individual stands "ZERO" chance at successfully negotiating a contract if minimum wage is gone.

It makes perfect sense that a pro union poster would speak so derisively of individuals and insist that individuals cannot do what they need without this vaunted collective of yours.

Unions have endeavored to assist government and corporatism in shutting out individuals from the market place, and that ain't a good thing by any stretch of the imagination.

Yeah...I'm sure the average high school grad will do a great job at "negotiating" his salary

Thx for making me laugh

reply to post by dreamseeker

If minuim wage was gone how would that change the employers? What would make them suddenly want to neogiate wages when they have never done so before?

Wages have always been and always be negotiable. If you personally have failed to negotiate an even exchange that is on you, and your personal experience is not at all reflective of reality as a whole.

If you as an employee have demonstrated your worth in such a way that your employer recognizes how much you are needed, then you can and should negotiate a fair market exchange. Every individual, both employer and employee are subject to what the market will bear, but if an individual is being paid below that market value then it is incumbent upon that individual to negotiate a better deal, or find employment with someone who will fairly negotiate.

Some countries with no minimum wage law:

Austria
Switzerland
Denmark
Italy
Liechtenstien
Norway
Singapore
Sweden
Germany, Island (these two have kinda mixed atypical system)

reply to post by MrXYZ

Yeah...I'm sure the average high school grad will do a great job at "negotiating" his salary

And yet, more examples of your vitriolic hate for the individual. You would reduce all individuals to high school graduates, which of course makes sense coming from a union man. You would pretend that individuals can be nothing more than high school graduates. You would pretend that of all the freshly graduate students from high school this year, none could negotiate an even exchange for their labor or service, because in your bleak gray world every student who graduated from high school this year is not nearly as wise as you. Ha! I suspect there are members in this site who just graduated from high school who demonstrate far more wisdom than you laughing boy.

repeal minimum wage??...instead of doing your "research" based on the single side of corporatism, why don't you do research on WHY the minimum wage was passed in the first place, with the arguements for and against it at that time, and who was on each side of that arguement.
this, as well as other labor laws, were back then passed with monumental congressional battles, and in todays political atmosphere, once labor laws protecting the average american are taken away, they will be gone forever. be careful what you wish for.

reply to post by aching_knuckles

I do not understand the mindset of these people who want to help the corporations tighten their stranglehold on us. Why would you fight against more corporate taxes, higher wages for all workers, all safeguards for the common worker?

That's because most are here with an agenda, and lots of the people you think you talk to, are not people.

As for the guy complaining about losing all his overtime pay to taxes: its a free market. go find another job where you will work less hours for the same pay. Its so easy to get skills, right? You can work hard and manage. No one is holding a gun to your head to work 80 hour weeks for only 100 grand.

Is that old illusion of freedom of choice still around. Sure your free, your free to chose between option A, or option B. But your not free to chose anything other then that.

Ah when will people learn, the land of the free has no free people in it. You will find more free people in places like the amazon or Siberia. But in the emerald city of OZ all the munchkins are slaves to there own freedoms.

Negoation is no longer a part of our current society. Even so called professionals lack those skills. I believe compromise is very important but our current society says it either has to be all one way or another. Either we get rid of the minium wage or rise it real high? There has to be a compromise somewhere in between.
Negoations,(by the way I do have dsylexia so sometimes my spelling grammar is off so please do not critisize me; spelling and math are my too worse subjects.); are something that companies don't expect from the average person and they often revert to have your lawyer call me. If you try to negoate with a company they want a mediator or lawyer involved. I can see what a mess that would be and how long it would take to actually get hired. A person would have to give in a lot in the end just so he or she can move forward. In a hearing or meeting a person can do a filabuster in order to draw out the process so the other side will cave in. I can see a lot of companies using this taken to wear someone down to accepting less. After all a company is willing to spend lots of time to get their way. Believe me I have experienced this a lot.

Originally posted by Maslo
Some countries with no minimum wage law:

Austria
Switzerland
Denmark
Italy
Liechtenstien
Norway
Singapore
Sweden
Germany, Island (these two have kinda mixed atypical system)

Again, almost without exception, these are all heavy union states. Federal collective bargaining or guild-based collective bargaining, it's more or less the same result. And, ironically, both of these freedom-based concepts are hated by so-called freedom supporters who want no accountability placed upon corporations.

reply to post by Jean Paul Zodeaux


I would not have failed if they would have allowed me room for negoation. In my last contract they cancelled my contract when I tried to negoate with them. They told me it was non-negotiable. Many companies are like this is not just my personal experience. I am going to call up some companies that are hiring and ask them about neogiating salaries or pay and will get back with you on this one.

reply to post by dreamseeker

Negoation is no longer a part of our current society.

This is a bald faced lie, and demonstrably so. I will demonstrate this by responding to your direct reply to me in a new post.

Originally posted by Maslo
Some countries with no minimum wage law:

Austria
Switzerland
Denmark
Italy
Liechtenstien
Norway
Singapore
Sweden
Germany, Island (these two have kinda mixed atypical system)

Austria > COLLECTIVE BARGAINING sets a minimum for every profession, fully supported by the law
Switzerland > COLLECTIVE BARGAINING ...
Denmark > Minimum salaries are negotiated by UNIONS and fully supported by the law
Italy > COLLECTIVE BARGAINING ...
Liechtenstein > The Liechtenstein Workers Association negotiates minimum wages annually with the Chamber of Commerce (LINK)
Norway > COLLECTIVE BARGAINING & UNIONS ...
Singapore > No regulations...but they have a RIDICULOUS gap between the rich and poor (LINK)
Sweden > COLLECTIVE BARGAINING ...
Germany > Mixed, part minimum wage, part COLLECTIVE BARGAINING

In short: Try again

When I served drinks in Switzerland, I earned $36/hr thanks to collective bargaining. So yeah, as long as you replace minimum wage with collective bargaining, be my guest

reply to post by MrXYZ

The problem is that minimum wages are so incredibly low, they create working poors, and guess what, your NIT doesn't really solve that issue at all

No, it beautifully solves that problem. That is precisely the reason for NIT.

Also, in reality, how likely do you think it is that all tax loopholes are closed given how politics work in the US? There is now way in hell companies will ever let it get that far

Yes. But even if current taxpayers payed the bill, it will still be beneficial, just less:
Increase of welfare expenditures due to some lowering of some wages and increased NIT welfare compensation of those employed workers would be less than decrease of welfare expenditures caused by decrease in unemployment enabled by now criminalised below minimum wage jobs becoming legal, and resulting economic growth associated with now criminalised economy becoming legal.

NIT is just like communism, it might work on paper, but in practice, it would end in disaster.

It did not end in disaster in New Jersey NIT experiment.

Originally posted by Janky Red

Originally posted by OptimusSubprime
reply to post by davidgrouchy

 

The truth is that if there were no minimum wage that businesses would have to compete for employees.

The truth is, this notion is just Elitist/globalist propaganda to save business's a buck. There is very little way to compete for something a moron can do. Please list a country, here on ATS that has abolished the minimum wage
or has no minimum wage, so we can discuss the practical viability of your assertion. You can't BTW... The wealthiest nations on Earth have minimum wage. The Anti Human ignorance you guys spout will be defeated,
thank god

And minimum wage doesn't save corporations any money?! Just think how much a corporation like McDonald's saves every year because they only have to pay their employees $7.25 an hour. Actually it is the independent owners of individual McDonald's restaurants that save the money, but money is saved regardless. The Federal Government has no authority, constitutionally speaking, to tell a private business owner what he or she has to pay their employees.

Originally posted by dreamseeker
reply to post by Jean Paul Zodeaux

 

I would not have failed if they would have allowed me room for negoation. In my last contract they cancelled my contract when I tried to negoate with them. They told me it was non-negotiable. Many companies are like this is not just my personal experience. I am going to call up some companies that are hiring and ask them about neogiating salaries or pay and will get back with you on this one.

Nothing is non-negotiable! When a company you work for tells you your salary or wage is non-negotiable, walk away. That is negotiable! Negotiate a deal with a different company.

The demonstrability of your failure to negotiate lies in your smarmy last sentence. Before you have even shown your worth to a company, you would call them up on the phone and demand a negotiation process. It is you being non negotiable at that point, not they. Even so, if you are clever and your timing is right you can even negotiate a higher starting salary.

No one owes you a job or a living. If you are a fisherman who fails to catch fish day after day because the spot you favor just isn't providing any fish to catch, then either you get a clue and move to a different spot, give up fishing all together, or starve.

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