Without Holiness No-One Will See the Lord

Repentance leads to salvation, and sanctification is what happens in between.

The goal is to become one; the Father in Jesus, and them in us.

Sanctification occurs through the Holy Spirit. The water baptism that John gave only cleanses the outside of the believer, while the baptism Jesus cleanses with is fire and cleans the inside. When the process is complete, the disciple can then experience the full measure of joy. The full measure is the glory. God gave Jesus some of his glory, and he in turn imparts it to us.

reply to post by Myrtales Instinct
Could you tell me what some of the process was that you went through to come to these conclusions?
Such as a particular study or experience, that helped you to arrive at this understanding.

Did i read your title right?

Without Separation No-One Will See the Lord?

Is that why all Christians are all separated from each other? how many christian denominations exist today? hmmm let me check...over 1000 denominations...all this from one book? How is it that one book can produce fruits that do not even believe they are from the same tree?

what did Jesus say?

"You will know them by their fruits..."

Yes..we do

reply to post by Myrtales Instinct

Repentance leads to salvation, and sanctification is what happens in between.

Not exactly. Repentance leads to justification, justification enables the possibility of sanctification, and sanctification leads to a final glorification. But repentance isn't a one time thing, a believer's life should be one of repentance. The exact process is described in Romans 8:30.

"Moreover whom he did predestinate, them he also called: and whom he called, them he also justified: and whom he justified, them he also glorified."

Originally posted by LiveEquation
Did i read your title right?

Without Separation No-One Will See the Lord?

Is that why all Christians are all separated from each other? how many christian denominations exist today? hmmm let me check...over 1000 denominations...all this from one book? How is it that one book can produce fruits that do not even believe they are from the same tree?

what did Jesus say?

"You will know them by their fruits..."

Yes..we do

We don't argue over the essential doctrine. The biggest thing that divides the different denominations are forms of worship services and the types of music and baptism. Not essential doctrine to a great degree. But that's fine.

reply to post by NOTurTypical

The exact process is described in Romans 8:30.

That may not be the fun kind of glorification, considering the context, it may mean a glorious death in the persecutions.

Originally posted by jmdewey60
reply to post by NOTurTypical

 

The exact process is described in Romans 8:30.

That may not be the fun kind of glorification, considering the context, it may mean a glorious death in the persecutions.

No, the "them" refers to those whom He (God) justified. And even if you're right, it's a tremendous honor and there is great reward for being a martyr for Christ. One of the downfalls of being a believer in a pre-trib rapture, unless we can suffer persecution and martyrdom before that, there is no possibility to earn that reward if we're raptured before all the heads begin to get lopped off. But I think the verse is speaking about us receiving glorified bodies at the resurrection.

reply to post by NOTurTypical

No, the "them" refers to those whom He (God) justified. And even if you're right, it's a tremendous honor and there is great reward for being a martyr for Christ. One of the downfalls of being a believer in a pre-trib rapture, unless we can suffer persecution and martyrdom before that, there is no possibility to earn that reward if we're raptured before all the heads begin to get lopped off. But I think the verse is speaking about us receiving glorified bodies at the resurrection.

What "them", as in which specific individuals?
Are you saying that Paul can only mean every single person who is ever justified, that was who he was talking to?
He seems to me to be talking directly to these very people, in a specific manner, who were going to be suffering death from the persecutions of the Christians. The glory would be the glory of sharing in the glory of Jesus, as in his own glorious death. Not glorious as in fun, as I mentioned earlier, but glorious as in doing what is right and standing for principles over comfort. Paul says nothing about glorious bodies being given here.
Apparently this "glorified" thing is something I need to look into further. I never took this to mean anything more than a figurative sort of thing. I did not realize there were people taking this literally.

Originally posted by jmdewey60
reply to post by NOTurTypical

 

No, the "them" refers to those whom He (God) justified. And even if you're right, it's a tremendous honor and there is great reward for being a martyr for Christ. One of the downfalls of being a believer in a pre-trib rapture, unless we can suffer persecution and martyrdom before that, there is no possibility to earn that reward if we're raptured before all the heads begin to get lopped off. But I think the verse is speaking about us receiving glorified bodies at the resurrection.

What "them", as in which specific individuals?
Are you saying that Paul can only mean every single person who is ever justified, that was who he was talking to?
He seems to me to be talking directly to these very people, in a specific manner, who were going to be suffering death from the persecutions of the Christians. The glory would be the glory of sharing in the glory of Jesus, as in his own glorious death. Not glorious as in fun, as I mentioned earlier, but glorious as in doing what is right and standing for principles over comfort. Paul says nothing about glorious bodies being given here.
Apparently this "glorified" thing is something I need to look into further. I never took this to mean anything more than a figurative sort of thing. I did not realize there were people taking this literally.

No, he said "Them whom He justified", which would imply everyone He justified. It doesn't say "some of them whom He justified".... Every one of us will be given a glorified body, either at the rapture where Paul says we will "be changed" or at the resurrection if we are dead when Christ returns. We all will be given a glorified body some day. Paul also says someday our body will be like Christ's resurrected body.

reply to post by NOTurTypical

No, he said "Them whom He justified", which would imply everyone He justified. It doesn't say "some of them whom He justified".... Every one of us will be given a glorified body, either at the rapture where Paul says we will "be changed" or at the resurrection if we are dead when Christ returns. We all will be given a glorified body some day. Paul also says someday our body will be like Christ's resurrected body.

Paul would not have to say "only some" because the people reading the letter would be the ones he is talking about. "Whoever is reading this letter, I am talking about you" would be understood and he is saying, "you who are going to be shortly put through this trial".
You would have to show me that about where the rapture gives the glorification to the exclusion of any other possible way.

reply to post by NOTurTypical


Not to argue with you, but you are just broadening the scope with Paul's teaching (which I have nothing against like some other posters) but technically it is through repentance we ultimately achieve salvation:

'This is what the Sovereign LORD, the Holy One of Israel, says:

“In repentance and rest is your salvation,
in quietness and trust is your strength,
but you would have none of it. "' Isaiah 30:15

I think a point many forget is that Paul became like one under law when appropriate (and many other roles) in order to win them that were under law, something he previously thought he was "blameless" in regards to and believe that's why Jesus said Moses was their accuser

If any other man thinketh that he hath whereof he might trust in the flesh, I more: Circumcised the eighth day, of the stock of Israel, of the tribe of Benjamin, an Hebrew of the Hebrews; as touching the law, a Pharisee; Concerning zeal, persecuting the church; touching the righteousness which is in the law, blameless. But what things were gain to me, those I counted loss for Christ...And be found in him, not having mine own righteousness, which is of the law, but that which is through the faith of Christ, the righteousness which is of God by faith
Philippians3

this is a scripture showing children being considered holy just from a believing spouse whether male or female

but now are they holy.
1Corinthians7

Ye know how that it is an unlawful thing for a man that is a Jew to keep company, or come unto one of another nation; but God hath shewed me that I should not call any man common or unclean.
Acts10

a believing spouse of what?

But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name: Which were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God.
John1

For the Father judges no man, but has committed all judgment to the Son
5

For as the woman is of the man, even
so is the man also by the woman; but all things of God.

therefore we both labour and suffer reproach, because we trust in the living God, who is the Saviour of all men, specially of those that believe.
1Timothy4
bible.cc...

reply to post by Rustami

. . .law, something he previously thought he was "blameless" in regards to. . .

The Jews were so strict on enforcing the Sabbath laws because they believed if they could, as a community, keep the Sabbath over so many consecutive weeks, then the Messiah would come.
Paul would have been one of these people forcing compliance but then he realized that was worthless and surrendered his self-made righteousness of outer law abidingness for a go at another better righteousness that comes from being changed on the inside.
Whether Paul would have been really blameless may be debatable but that is not as important as that he believed he was and was still willing to throw it away for a greater hope.
Jesus was confronting people all the time who He knew were not blameless by their own standards that they used to denigrate others.

Originally posted by jmdewey60
reply to post by NOTurTypical

 

No, he said "Them whom He justified", which would imply everyone He justified. It doesn't say "some of them whom He justified".... Every one of us will be given a glorified body, either at the rapture where Paul says we will "be changed" or at the resurrection if we are dead when Christ returns. We all will be given a glorified body some day. Paul also says someday our body will be like Christ's resurrected body.

Paul would not have to say "only some" because the people reading the letter would be the ones he is talking about. "Whoever is reading this letter, I am talking about you" would be understood and he is saying, "you who are going to be shortly put through this trial".
You would have to show me that about where the rapture gives the glorification to the exclusion of any other possible way.

Really? In the twinkling of an eye we will be "changed" we will put on a body of incorruptibly, mortal will put on immortality. We will no longer have sinful flesh. Paul later says we will see Christ truly for who He is because our bodies will be like His. He had a glorified resurrected body. And come on man, the Holy Spirit is the author of scripture, Paul just held the pen. The Holy Spirit knew full well that not only would that church read Paul's letter but we all throughout the centuries would as well. It gives the steps from our foreknowledge and predestination in eternity past to our final glorification when we are either raptured or resurrected.

reply to post by Myrtales Instinct

. . it is through repentance we ultimately achieve salvation:

That theme crops up quite a bit, which could lead one to coming to the conclusion that it is central for the community as a whole, and in the NT, it is applied individually. True repentance is more than just a feeling but brings action in the way of a change in behavior.

Originally posted by Myrtales Instinct
reply to post by NOTurTypical

 

Not to argue with you, but you are just broadening the scope with Paul's teaching (which I have nothing against like some other posters) but technically it is through repentance we ultimately achieve salvation:

'This is what the Sovereign LORD, the Holy One of Israel, says:

“In repentance and rest is your salvation,
in quietness and trust is your strength,
but you would have none of it. "' Isaiah 30:15

Of course, I've never slighted repentance. And repentance as the Greek is used means "to change one's mind". Repent means to change your mind, to agree with God about your nature in your sins and this change of mind will result in a changed behavior. No one can have a changed mind and not have a changed behavior. Any other attempt is just behavior modification and won't have lasting effects.

Originally posted by jmdewey60
reply to post by Myrtales Instinct

 

. . it is through repentance we ultimately achieve salvation:

That theme crops up quite a bit, which could lead one to coming to the conclusion that it is central for the community as a whole, and in the NT, it is applied individually. True repentance is more than just a feeling but brings action in the way of a change in behavior.

True repentance, not just lip service is a change of one's mind. This will certainly result in changed behavior. I can't fathom how someone can change their mind and still behave the way they used to. You begin to hate what God hates and love what He loves.