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the universe that we can see is much closer than we think

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posted on Jul, 31 2011 @ 10:18 PM
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reply to post by UmbraSumus
 


i imagine that other worlds are just around the corner
and we could travel to them,
all we need to do is refine the distence calculations based on the optical and density/refractivity of the lenses

imagine being on a planet orbiting another star

xploder




posted on Jul, 31 2011 @ 11:17 PM
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I am not that well versed in physics, however I always enjoy reading a Hawking novel.

Disclosure: I am not a Scientist.






Here is a question I have always had, if space-time is distorted by super-massive objects, and you were travelling from one black-hole to another that was 100AUs from the first one, would they seem like they were at a further distance because of the distortion?

Continuing the train of thought, would relative space-time change as you got in between two solar systems, and/or two galaxies?


Something I have never been able to wrap my head around...



posted on Aug, 1 2011 @ 12:57 AM
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Sorry to complicate the idea (I really enjoyed the intellectually stimulating subject), but what happens when some serious time dilation gets applied to the concept? I would love to believe you are correct, but to further the possibilities in a positive vein it seems likely that combining the two schools of thought would have some merit. Finally, adding some advances in propulsion as one member mentioned and we truly could be on our way. Bonus question: what happens to the age of the universe under this paradigm plus the big bang?



posted on Aug, 1 2011 @ 11:22 AM
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Just a question - and I may be way off-base with this one as I am not a professional astronomer - but what about redshift? How does this lensing effect explain the shift of light towards the red spectrum the further it has travelled?



posted on Aug, 1 2011 @ 12:21 PM
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Wouldn't the lens around our solar system and the lens around another solar system cancel each other out... One magnifies while the other de-magnifies.





Sun ) ( Other Star.
edit on 1-8-2011 by smithjustinb because: (no reason given)



posted on Aug, 1 2011 @ 12:36 PM
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Originally posted by XPLodER

acually they do,
a recent discovery in optical lensing

A gravitational lens not only distorts the image of a distant object, it can also act like an optical lens, collecting and refocusing the light to make it appear brighter. Wondering if gravitational lensing might be responsible for the unusual brightness of these objects, the Herschel scientists teamed up with CfA astronomers Mark Gurwell and Ray Blundell to use the Submillimeter Array (SMA) to help resolve the question through its superb spatial resolution.


link to ex content

and our milky way is an optical lens

xploder


wouldnt that make the objects lensed farther away than they appear like looking through the binos right way around?



posted on Aug, 1 2011 @ 04:11 PM
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reply to post by boncho
 


hi

Here is a question I have always had, if space-time is distorted by super-massive objects, and you were travelling from one black-hole to another that was 100AUs from the first one, would they seem like they were at a further distance because of the distortion?

Continuing the train of thought, would relative space-time change as you got in between two solar systems, and/or two galaxies?


"gravitational microscoping" (GM) (artistic image used)



would become part of the equation and looking out from the wrong end of a microscope is worse for perspective than a solar system "bubble" distence distortion senario.(GM effect has yet to be observed or confirmed)

the problem is the distence/light metric, because the lenses effect light and perceived distence.
so measuring distence /time using light is hard to do without knowing the medium density of the medium (to correct for distence travelled in the new medium)

the main point is you have to add the effects of gravity on the "lens" and looking in things are "magnifyed" or "microscoped" and if you were inside looking out every thing would look the oposite of magnifyed


xploder


edit on 1-8-2011 by XPLodER because: add pic

edit on 1-8-2011 by XPLodER because: (no reason given)



posted on Aug, 1 2011 @ 04:31 PM
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Originally posted by Kryties
Just a question - and I may be way off-base with this one as I am not a professional astronomer - but what about redshift? How does this lensing effect explain the shift of light towards the red spectrum the further it has travelled?


to be clear i am not a professional astronomer,
my take on red shift gets complicated fast,
transition of lens boundrys have an acociaated cost,
conservation of energy laws require a slight cost to entering a different density,
each different density encounted would have a small cost to the wavelength/amplitude,
each lens effects the shift down of spectral information to the red direction,
then as the light exits each lens, conservation of energy laws come into play and light is effected wavelength/amplitude in the opposite direction but without as much shift back up to the blue,

the observation conformation would be quasars that are close to us but very high red shift,
the strength of the lens would have alot to do with red shift,

this does not mean that i dont beleive in "doppler red shift" or "cosmological red shift" and ect
i just think that when lens induced red shift is investigated, alot of the red shift we attribute to velocity or distence may be due to local and exterior lens conditions and factors


xploder



posted on Aug, 1 2011 @ 05:13 PM
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Originally posted by smithjustinb
Wouldn't the lens around our solar system and the lens around another solar system cancel each other out... One magnifies while the other de-magnifies.





Sun ) ( Other Star.
edit on 1-8-2011 by smithjustinb because: (no reason given)


IMHO
when gravity is added to the center of the bubbles there is an interesting outcome,
"gravitational microscoping" (yet to be observed)

xploder



posted on Aug, 1 2011 @ 05:20 PM
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Interesting thinking, while I certainly dont have the knowledge to have a god debate on this subject would we not have discovered this from the voyager missions as they would have taken less time if there was a significant level of distortion? I feel like there could be some truth to this, but it will maybe only be significant to a much smaller degree and only really significant to very far away bodies in space.

Like I said though I have no expertise in anything like this so I am probably getting the theory of this wrong lol



posted on Aug, 1 2011 @ 05:33 PM
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Originally posted by clintdelicious
Interesting thinking, while I certainly dont have the knowledge to have a god debate on this subject would we not have discovered this from the voyager missions as they would have taken less time if there was a significant level of distortion? I feel like there could be some truth to this, but it will maybe only be significant to a much smaller degree and only really significant to very far away bodies in space.

Like I said though I have no expertise in anything like this so I am probably getting the theory of this wrong lol


here is an article from NASA


Recalculating the Distance to Interstellar Space


Scientists analyzing recent data from NASA's Voyager and Cassini spacecraft have calculated that Voyager 1 could cross over into the frontier of interstellar space at any time and much earlier than previously thought. The findings are detailed in this week's issue of the journal Nature.

Data from Voyager's low-energy charged particle instrument, first reported in December 2010, have indicated that the outward speed of the charged particles streaming from the sun has slowed to zero. The stagnation of this solar wind has continued through at least February 2011, marking a thick, previously unpredicted "transition zone" at the edge of our solar system.


link to source

from nasa
xploder



posted on Aug, 1 2011 @ 05:49 PM
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reply to post by XPLodER
 


ahh loverly, thank you very much. Thats why I love this site, everyone always there to help point you to knowledge



posted on Aug, 1 2011 @ 09:00 PM
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reply to post by clintdelicious
 


you are welcome,
if you would like links or more info,
please view some of my previous threads

xploder



posted on Aug, 2 2011 @ 01:13 PM
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Very interesting. We need to be working on deep space exploration. We've wasted 30 years orbitting Earth and now we will have to hitch a ride with the Russians to even do that. Breaks my heart; I was hoping by now we would at least have been to Mars. Maybe some of the places we see are close enough to one day visit after all.



posted on Aug, 2 2011 @ 11:08 PM
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reply to post by squatchhunter
 



Astronomers have shown that, at high red shifts, gravitational lensing might have a dominant effect on the number of galaxies counted in upcoming surveys. As astronomers peer deeper into the sky, they will have to be careful what they count.

When counting galaxies, astronomers use the Schechter luminosity function, which gives a characteristic luminosity for a distribution of galaxies. Above this luminosity, there are exponentially fewer galaxies; below it, the number galaxies grows rapidly. Fitting the observed distribution of galaxies to the luminosity function gives an estimate of the number of galaxies in that distribution. But overcounting bright galaxies gives the wrong fit, and will throw that estimate off. And gravitational lensing might produce just this sort of overcount.


link to source

xploder



posted on Aug, 4 2011 @ 02:22 PM
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There are other methods than gravity for deflection of starlight.

" Light refraction by the Sun's atmosphere is calculated. As detected from the Earth, the refraction can deflect a light ray emitted from the Sun's limb by 13'' or a starlight ray grazing the solar limb by 26'' , an effect 15 times larger than the gravitational deflection."

www.springerlink.com...

Significant Findings Reveal No Gravitational Lensing in the Vacuum Space just above the Rim of the Sun.
"Historically, nearly a century of observations for gravitational light bending effects at the sun have always been noted to occur predominantly near the thin plasma rim of the sun, not in the vacuum space only a fraction of a solar radius above the plasma rim."
www.24-7pressrelease.com...

There is also planewave deflection at dielectric boundary layers, so if there are
plasma double layers around the solar system, there could be lensing there too.

I have also yet to see a disproof of Bahram Katirai and his idea that we have not only
distances, but the very nature of the cosmos all wrong. Errors added to errors, and
assumptions based on assumptions.
Worth a read, IMO.
astronomyinformation.org...



posted on Aug, 4 2011 @ 02:39 PM
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Originally posted by twinmommy38
Dark Energy and Dark Matter were invented by physicisists to explain the discrepancy in the mathmatical calculations of the mass and speed of the observable universe which were not even close to what the formulas said they should be. There just is not enough "stuff" to provide the needed gravitational forces to make things act like we observe them to act. If the "lensing" phenomenon were proven, and it's subsequent corrections to the math were deemed to be an accurate way to interpret the images used in galactic calculations, it may be possible to create a formula for the universe that didn't include inventing stuff to make the math work.


Ding ding ding, we have a winner! Excellent reading here because this is statement is 100% correct. Simply inventing mysterious unseen forces to explain our inability to properly do the math is nothing short of sheer ridiculousness.

If this very interesting idea could gel the math with the observations, the new understanding of the Universe would be nothing short of life changing.



posted on Aug, 4 2011 @ 04:55 PM
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Originally posted by GaryN
There are other methods than gravity for deflection of starlight.

yes there are observable mecanisms that show that deflection, the most exciting is acually optical refraction from different medium densities. (density lensing)


" Light refraction by the Sun's atmosphere is calculated. As detected from the Earth, the refraction can deflect a light ray emitted from the Sun's limb by 13'' or a starlight ray grazing the solar limb by 26'' , an effect 15 times larger than the gravitational deflection."

www.springerlink.com...


the plasma layer would be an effective lens due to the increased medium density in the carona


Significant Findings Reveal No Gravitational Lensing in the Vacuum Space just above the Rim of the Sun.
"Historically, nearly a century of observations for gravitational light bending effects at the sun have always been noted to occur predominantly near the thin plasma rim of the sun, not in the vacuum space only a fraction of a solar radius above the plasma rim."


i would like to point out that if you look at the same lensing dynamic from outside the solar system,
the outter edge 1/5 of the helio sphere would be the most powerful lens and the corona would be much more powerful if looking through the helio sphere and through the carona

www.24-7pressrelease.com...

There is also planewave deflection at dielectric boundary layers, so if there are
plasma double layers around the solar system, there could be lensing there too.


correct 100% the "bubble" that is the heliosphere would be reflective at the correct angles of incidence causing "deflection of light rays


I have also yet to see a disproof of Bahram Katirai and his idea that we have not only
distances, but the very nature of the cosmos all wrong. Errors added to errors, and
assumptions based on assumptions.
Worth a read, IMO.
astronomyinformation.org...


i will now go and read bahram katirai material,
as he seems to have a similar idea to me

xploder



posted on Aug, 4 2011 @ 05:16 PM
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Originally posted by XPLodER
it is my opinion that we can travel to the stars and to other galaxies,
if we get over the optical illusion of distence we may find that its a short "hop" over to the next system

kinda makes me think,
we could be on other worlds in my life time.
xploder


It's taken Voyager 1 33 years, 10 months and 29 days to get where it is today.


Voyager 1's current relative velocity to the sun is 17,060 m/s (61,400 km/h; 38,200 mph). This calculates as 3.599 AU per year, about 10% faster than Voyager 2. At this velocity, 73,600 years would pass before reaching the nearest star, Proxima Centauri, were the spacecraft traveling in the direction of that star. Voyager 1 will need about 14,000 years at its current velocity to travel one light year, therefore 40,000 years will pass before coming anywhere near other stars or planets. Voyager 1 is predicted to enter the interstellar medium between 2012–15, though some scientists say it will be in 2014. Voyager 1 is still the farthest man made object in the universe from Earth.


We won't be traveling out of the Milky Way Galaxy or our Solar System anytime soon.

The distances are just too far using current space travel abilities.

Mars, Asteroids, and Jupiter's moons are the only worlds we have a chance of visiting in person.
edit on 8/4/11 by AstroBuzz because: (no reason given)



posted on Aug, 15 2011 @ 02:51 PM
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reply to post by XPLodER
 
I am glad you you helped to expand this topic as i had talked about this little more than 3 weeks ago while looking up at the stars.the reality that the government and all their cohorts lie to us about everything is readily apparent to us and the god of the universe has helped reveal this to me in layers.
to the people in control of the world,they believe that all people are stupid to them because we
have been deceived by them.it wasn't enough to simply be our masters and reign over us they have decided long ago that they would set the precedent for true education and sterilization efforts to prevent people from growing
to their intelligent true selves.keeping the people dumb through genetics is the key.i believe that all people are very intelligent and all humanity can become of a higher echelon of intelligence but are prevented from rising up against their masters.they have carefully set the standard for intelligence against all people TO all people.the nurse believes the doctor when he says that people are crazy for believing that mercury is not bad for you so takes the vaccine herself knowing the truth but her ''education'' has prevented her from making a rational decision for her own life.
the universe is not billions of ''light years'' in size.
are you a mathematician?
do you own a space observatory?
do you believe that you will always live on this planet?
don't you think they are already living on the moon and mars?
i believe that now that they what is really on earth and mars their lies have been exposed due to greed
10 companies want to strip mine the moon and now we ''jumped'' into the future when it has simply been hidden from us because we are simply sheep that are easy to scare and cannot be told anything for fear of mass riots and mass suicides
no,what we are going to riot over is our enslavement to the machine that has used us for their personal gain not for the gain of humanity.why are they putting crap in the food that will give you cancer why not give us regular food instead of ''sugarless'' food or ''low sodium'' when they throw the poison in with it?
why not give us clean healthy water instead of fluoridated and poisonous water?they are so smart as to map the universe and invent just about anything but cant give us water that is clean?i do not care if they are telling us they are using orbit trajectory to escape gravitational pull and travel from planet to planet and have little thrust engines that are solar power and can only give so many horsepower and can only travel so fast and can only get to a faraway place in so much time.they are lying to us about everything.all they claim to know and they want us to believe they have not figured out to travel in space??seems like it isnt rocket science to me they already can move through space why would they just be satisfied with that when they are still inventing v12 double engines for cars that go 0-60 in 2 seconds.
do you not find it odd that they have a perfect shot of the sun like it is televised and be able to watch every solar flare that pops out like we are watching an episode of star trek?they are no different than the government that choose to give us information as they see fit to keep us entertained and also the appearance of being truthful and keeping americans and the world up to date.
now that companies have the power to leave earth do you think the government will allow people to leave earth in droves to be free from the tyranny of these monster?NO!!!
this is reserved for the wealthy and the powerful by the time the average human goes to the moon or mars they will already have police and jails and all your equipment will be regulated.
keep giving the government the power to steal and devalue your money for the sake their mad scientist project
of subliminal mind control.are humans getting smarter?do they textbooks keep reiterating all that you learn and you are not learning yet merely memorizing?do you not thirst for more knowledge?
the minute that we are on to their greed and infinite wealth and power is the day that the game is over and that the power will go back to the people and humanity to move on to a higher conscienceness.but every time
in history this has happened a death of the world has occurred and humanities sickest individuals have survived
only to create another system of slaves
why are all presidents stupider than an box of rocks?why do we continue to believe that the presidential position can be ruled by the average citizen?shouldnt there be a rules to why you can be president?
YOU ALL NEED TO WAKE UP AND REALIZE THAT YOU HAVE THE POWER TO STOP PAYING TAXES TO SAY NO TO ALL THE APPOINTED PEOPLE OF AUTHORITY WHO ONLY PROTECT THE WEALTHY AND THE POWERFUL humanity will rise as they have before



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