Help Me With This Basic Question Regarding Reality, Please.

Originally posted by Akasirus

Originally posted by blocula

Originally posted by Akasirus

Originally posted by blocula
animals cant project themselves into the future...everyday i open the front door and our dog is laying there on the otherside and gets bumped by it and then the next day and the next day hes back there again and again getting hit by it,the dog cant think to himself, 'if i lay over there instead of in front of the door i wont get hit by it', animals live in the now,thats it...humans can project themselves into the past present and future...

Maybe your dog can't, but other dogs do not display such stupidity. For example, my wife informs my that my dog stops whatever he's doing about a quarter to five, and lays by the door to wait for me. He hears the garage door open, and he stands up and steps back, waiting for me to open the door.

Dogs know approximately what time of the day it is, can develop patterns, and will do things in the future differently depending on events that happened in the past. I do not know why your dog is so lazy and incompetent.

"all" animals are driven by instinct and nothing more...eat,mate and sleep this is all,no animal can think>>"next week i'm gonna go lay under that tree",they can only live "in the now" and as far as my dog being stupid hes a full blooded lab and is anything but stupid...you just want to see something in your dog that isnt there...

If you say your dog gets hit with the same door every day, I would argue he is stupid or lazy. I am not saying he is 'thinking' anything, but most dogs will change depending on past stimuli, and this is a fact. After getting hit with a door 5 or 6 times, most dogs (that I have encountered anyways) would not lay their anymore. If your dog is so smart, why does he continually do the same thing, knowing the outcome? How do you train your dog to do anything (stay off the couch, stop biting, piss outside) if he is only in the now and can't think "If I do this, 'm going to get smacked with the paper again"?

And honestly there is no way for either of us to know what a dog is experiencing. You say dogs only live in the 'now', well guess what? So do people. Humans are also ruled by our urges, our mind only tries to rationalize it. I'm not seeing things in my dog that aren't there, you are just not giving your enough credit. The example you gave to prove dogs live in the now was invalid, because most dogs would not behave like that, as further research supports.

For example, here is a dog with a vocabulary of 1022 words, which shows a capacity for learning similar to a 3 year old child: Dog breaks vocabulary record

Here's another one, that shows dogs can count, perform simple math, and even lie and decieve: Dogs as intelligent as children

If it makes it easier to believe your dog 'isn't really there' and he's just a walking chemical reaction, then go ahead. But there's no evidence to support that, behaviorally or biologically.

my dog doesnt know the outcome because he cant think about the future...they are trained ,usually with food >>.."fetch the paper "now" and i'll reward you with a treat "now"...it isnt like ..."fetch the paper "now" and i'll give you a treat "next week" because animals cant convceive of a future event,only when something is happening at that moment,i can think to myself that i will go to a particular store five days from now and i will be there,an animal...no way

reply to post by blocula


Imagine a sliding scale, with 'Primal Urges' on the left, and 'Reasoning' on the right. An animal on the far left would be completely ruled by his basic instincts. An animal on the far right would be able to ignore all those urges, and would be ruled solely by reasoning of his mind's devising.

Mayflies would be on the far left. Their lifespan ranges from a few minutes to a few days, and their sole driving force is surviving long enough to procreate. They don't just decide they are going to act in opposition of these urges and just explore for awhile.

Humans are somewhere in the middle, probably skewed a little towards reasoning. We still get hungry, horny, and our emotions reinforce our needs. We can ignore these urges though, and don't always act in interest of our basic instincts (skipping meals, self-harm, etc).

You can begin to see where dogs might lie on this scale. They are certainly not ruled completely by their basic urges, the mere fact that they are domesticated proves this. Domestication goes against every instinct an animal has; to allow itself to be confined, unable to procreate, and surrender complete control of food, shelter, and it's most basic needs. In that respect, dogs would probably lie close to humans than to mayflies.

The fact is all animals can conceive of the future on some level. If animals had no perception of the future they wouldn't seek out shelter when they don't yet need it, look for food when they weren't hungry, or really do anything at all as long as their needs were met at that moment. But yet animals stock up food for the winter, they migrate weeks before winter comes, and are constantly mindful of what they can do now to have the best chance of survival in the future.

In all likelihood dogs do not have the mental capacity to reason very far into the future, similar to how a toddler is more concerned with getting what they want right now instead of next week. But there's absolutely nothing to support they don't have an understanding of the near to mid-range future. In fact, a very simple experiment will instantly prove that to be wrong. Feed your dog at the exact same time every day for a couple of days, then wait an hour and see what happens. Most dogs will be waiting there, standing by their food dish. Their dish is empty now, you are not feeding them now, the whole time they were walking to the food dish, and sitting there waiting, it's because they expected food to be there in the future.

I apologize though, this has gotten so far off topic I don't even remember how the original statement related to this thread in the first place.

Reality is something we all take part in creating. It is a vast matrix and each powerpoint is an indiviual being adding its own energies to the whole. It is a vibrant living masterpiece that we are all painting together.
Language is the tool we use to give everything we do 'sense' because it is through talking to each other that we can express our intentions and weigh them alongside those of our neighbours. IMOHO. ;

Originally posted by Akasirus
reply to post by blocula

 

Imagine a sliding scale, with 'Primal Urges' on the left, and 'Reasoning' on the right. An animal on the far left would be completely ruled by his basic instincts. An animal on the far right would be able to ignore all those urges, and would be ruled solely by reasoning of his mind's devising.

Mayflies would be on the far left. Their lifespan ranges from a few minutes to a few days, and their sole driving force is surviving long enough to procreate. They don't just decide they are going to act in opposition of these urges and just explore for awhile.

Humans are somewhere in the middle, probably skewed a little towards reasoning. We still get hungry, horny, and our emotions reinforce our needs. We can ignore these urges though, and don't always act in interest of our basic instincts (skipping meals, self-harm, etc).

You can begin to see where dogs might lie on this scale. They are certainly not ruled completely by their basic urges, the mere fact that they are domesticated proves this. Domestication goes against every instinct an animal has; to allow itself to be confined, unable to procreate, and surrender complete control of food, shelter, and it's most basic needs. In that respect, dogs would probably lie close to humans than to mayflies.

The fact is all animals can conceive of the future on some level. If animals had no perception of the future they wouldn't seek out shelter when they don't yet need it, look for food when they weren't hungry, or really do anything at all as long as their needs were met at that moment. But yet animals stock up food for the winter, they migrate weeks before winter comes, and are constantly mindful of what they can do now to have the best chance of survival in the future.

In all likelihood dogs do not have the mental capacity to reason very far into the future, similar to how a toddler is more concerned with getting what they want right now instead of next week. But there's absolutely nothing to support they don't have an understanding of the near to mid-range future. In fact, a very simple experiment will instantly prove that to be wrong. Feed your dog at the exact same time every day for a couple of days, then wait an hour and see what happens. Most dogs will be waiting there, standing by their food dish. Their dish is empty now, you are not feeding them now, the whole time they were walking to the food dish, and sitting there waiting, it's because they expected food to be there in the future.

I apologize though, this has gotten so far off topic I don't even remember how the original statement related to this thread in the first place.

very well said ^^^.......[dogs were first domesticated because of food,they,as wolves,were hanging around early mans trash dumps. animals stock up food,seek shelter and migrate for the same reason we keep breathing while asleep...instinct,its an involuntary motion, they just do it automatically,they arent projecting themselves into the future because they cant,their brain power/capacity isnt large enough...the dog is walking to and waiting by the food dish because its hungry...eat,sleep,mate.

whatever elaborate words we choose to describe reality,they will not be sufficient,because we dont know and cant even perceive with our five senses what reality "really" is,the known universe of the microcosm,inner space, the smaller and smaller we are able to look, the unseen vastness of the microscopic world goes on and on, it is amazing and strange and remains mostly a mystery beyond our understanding,how small does this material reality actually get? small enough untill finally only "holographic pixels" are revealed !? thus proving the theory that our reality is a class 3 aliens super advanced,3 dimensional,virtual computer simulation !?.....the known universe of the macrocosm,outer space,the larger and more incredibly huge things become,"what are the stars and planets "really" a part of ?,are they and we just a part of gods physical body!? what happen if this god were to die !?...is the seemingly outward expansion of the universe endless?! or does it wrap around itself ? if so,what is on the other side,another dimension?...all is illusion, but i think somewhere in my statement a truth is beginning to show...

Originally posted by Axial Leader
Is there any part of reality that cannot be described in words?

I don't mean "described efficiently", because it is obvious that some types of reality will require a lot of explanation (after all, one picture is worth a thousand words, so they say.)

But is there some part of reality that cannot be labeled, or somehow described with arbitrary precision by spoken and written word?

If it is true that all of reality can be described by language, is it possible that reality and language are the same thing?

TIA.

Here is the very best definition/discription of Reality I have ever heard-- I think you will love this---It was first written in 1958 by William Samuel--- Seems we are just starting to get these enlightened ideas that he was writing about back then. Many are waking up to this.

The booklet is titled 2+2=Reality and is being shared as a free gift on his website www.williamsamuel.com

www.williamsamuel.com...

Its at the top of that page --- it says Free gift 2+2=Reality (it is pdf download)

It is really one of the most brilliant little booklet that helps to change our whole perspective on who we are what God is and what Reality is---- go see---and keep reading, it gets really good as you get into it further.

Hope you like it, Thanks, Sweetmystery

You can't understand something without first experiencing it.

If you've ever watched Star Trek: The Next Generation there was a character on the show named Data, he was a highly advanced robot with AI but unable to feel, he would always ask someone to describe a feeling they were having, yet they could never manage to do it in a way in which he could relate to it.

We as a species at least need a frame of reference and are unable to understand the unknown unless we ourselves see it first hand, or experience it.

reply to post by Axial Leader

If it is true that all of reality can be described by language, is it possible that reality and language are the same thing?

Since describing something and experiencing something are two different things, I would guess that any part of reality can be described, but only in essence, because offering a description does not mean that the describer will necessarily be able to duplicate the feeling of the experience they personally had in the perceptions of an audience.

Feeling is everything!

theres only one big problem with describing reality,we dont know what reality is,theories and guesses is all we have to offer,its like trying to read in the dark...all is illusion and nothing is as it appears.