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So You Think "The Rich" Aren't Paying There Fair Share"

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posted on Jul, 31 2011 @ 05:21 PM
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reply to post by neo96
 


My god your cluelessness is astounding. UNBELIEVABLE. The rich have tax breaks, tax shelters, etc that keep them from, in many instances, paying ANY taxes. You are concrete proof of why America is in such terrible shape. It is an uninformed citizenry that knows pretty much nothing about anything. I am just flooered that you actually think you have just made an argument. Utterly insane.




posted on Jul, 31 2011 @ 05:52 PM
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reply to post by Scytherius
 




I want to just go through some of the points I think Neo was trying to make. And believe it or not these are in fact conservative points. I hear them all the time at our Meetings. Neo can come back into this thread if he wants to actually debate. I don't consider myself a troll.

1. If we plan to take everything from the rich, we are no better than the rich. (I agree, but temporarily until we revert the rules that allowed wealth to be created without contributing to society, I think it should be done.)

2. If we stand for liberty, isn't keeping one's "winnings" part of said liberty. (yes, and no, depends on what right's were trampled on during the accumulation of said wealth)

3. We have the ability to do the same things the "rich" are doing. If we are too lazy then, too bad. (Totally inaccurate, this is like being a spectator at a Green Bay vs. Chicago football game. How often does a spectator get a chance to play in the super bowl? Not very often. These financial powerhouses have been making loopholes, and putting themselves right on the edge of the law forever. To think some guy who just wants to work his 40 hours a week, and take care of his family is going to be dressing for the big game, is foolish. Once you learn the system, it is quite simple. But learning the system, is not really something that is just shared to the public.)

4. Even if you take the wealth form the wealthy, it will return to the wealthy because all poor people do not know how to create wealth. (absolutely true, this is what we want for a healthy economy.) Someone said logging company replanting trees, that is a perfect analogy.

5. The rich pay for everything so leave them alone. (BS, complete BS, If I stole everyone Else's money I guess that would force me to pay.

6. the poor are all inbred, unintelligent, lazy bums (L O L)

I really can't tell what Neo's point is. Maybe he can come back and set the record straight.



posted on Jul, 31 2011 @ 06:17 PM
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"1. If we plan to take everything from the rich, we are no better than the rich."
Delicious cake
??? Who claimed that we should take EVERYTHING from the rich? That is a straw man.* Perhaps it would be a good idea if the super rich actually paid taxes! OK, the average is 17% , I'm not mega rich and I pay more!!!
* Free basic logic lesson!
en.wikipedia.org...
PS; I wish ATS had posts numbered! See the post 8 from the bottom
www.abovetopsecret.com...

YIKES!!!
You were quoting a fool. You are not the fool! SORRY!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
edit on 31-7-2011 by ineffable2 because: (no reason given)



posted on Jul, 31 2011 @ 06:25 PM
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The current financial mess was caused by Wall Street. Unfortunately, the man on the street was the one that took the hit. The Republican plan is to take more from the man on the street ( Medicare, social security, road repair,schools , making sure his air is fit to breathe...etc) and nothing from Wall Street and the international corporations that caused this mess. They actually have sold the nonsense that the poor and middle class are to blame for the mess we are in because they have too much and Wall Street does not have enough!!!
---------------
"A good chunk of these profits is coming right out the pockets of the American public, thanks in part to astronomical gas prices and to $4 billion to $8 billion a year in deficit-increasing tax subsidies that oil companies continue to get,"
FROM
www.huffingtonpost.com...
money.msn.com...
articles.cnn.com...:OPINION
www.statesman.com...
wweek.com...


I say solve the deficit by cutting welfare for the mega rich and making the international elite pay the same percentage in taxes as the rest of us.

YIKES!!!
You were quoting a fool. You are not the fool! SORRY!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
edit on 31-7-2011 by ineffable2 because: (no reason given)



posted on Jul, 31 2011 @ 06:41 PM
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You go to the store and buy an imported star fruit for a dollar. The taxes that store pays to fed,state, local is factored into that dollar. This includes the taxes paid for all the employees checks that the employees don't have to pay, fuel taxes, electricity taxes, etc. Now getting the fruit to the store takes a truck with road taxes, taxes because of the drivers pay, fuel taxes, property taxes on the truck itself, etc. Same for interm storage facilities, import companies, the ship to get it to America, the original company that picks the fruit and their employees.

The fruit at the tree is worth $.02 (after property taxes). Pay for all the handlers is about $.40. ALL the taxes is about $.58. Then the handlers $.40 have to pay their taxes out of that, which is about $.25. So about $.83 of your one dollar star fruit is all taxes over the whole line from tree to your mouth.

Now remember, this is is the amount of taxes on food that is "not taxed".
edit on 31-7-2011 by tkwasny because: addition



posted on Jul, 31 2011 @ 06:53 PM
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You also failed to mention all the other taxes that will be removed with the purchases made by the person who wins. Not to mention the business or two the person will buy. Then employ people.
Then there will be MORE taxes!
Unemployment tax, social security tax, Medicare tax…



posted on Jul, 31 2011 @ 06:54 PM
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many of the people I've known that were receiving help from the gov't had a member of their family working...some were single parents, some were couples with young children....
if all those "rich" employers out there are so upset with their high taxes, tell ya what...
if you aren't paying your employees a livable wage, you have no basis to complain!! it is taxpayers like me, who really don't earn all that much that are subsidizing your payrolls, so you can enjoy your rich lifestyle!!

the 1% isn't paying everything for the 99%!! it isn't the lower 50% or the income earners only not paying taxes, my family's income is lower than the medium, and we end up paying more come tax time!! know alot of others not hitting that medium and still are paying! and well...hate to tell ya this, but a family making over $5,000 a month can get subsidized healthcare for their child!!!

care to tell me why the lady who wouldn't even be able to rent a lousy efficiency apartment without it eating up around half her take home pay, who went a year crapping blood in fear of the bill, who was almost left out of the loop all together when she broke her ankle because her family couldn't come up with a few thousand dollars should be subsidizing the healthcare of some kids who's parents are making over $5,000/mo??

the crisis was the collaspe of the housing market, and the scheme called derivatives, along with it's mers database, it's robosigners, it's blacklisted appraisers who refused to lie for a job, social security had nothing to do with it!! social security was running a surplus while much of this debt was run up....the deficit would have been much higher without that surplus revenue!!
and yet well, the gov't took all that toxic paper off the hands of the banks, bailed them out, heck, if what I read, the fed secretly gave away to banks and big corporations more money than our national debt is!! very few people have been prosecuted, although it is pretty evident that a few laws were broken. the banks are still not lending, and that is one of the biggest problems small businesses are having at the moment!! and well why should the banks lend the money, ever since around 2007, (why does that year sound so familiar, like something major happened??) well, the fed started paying them interest for just keeping their money in their vaults!!

and the rich go oh, no, we shouldn't have to pay for that mess!!!
oh, no, I should be willing to give up all claim to any future social security benefits, I should be paying more in taxes, not the rich, oh no!! they are the ones creating those jobs!! those low wage, con the gov't into keeping our employees alive and passing the cost onto the taxpayer, so we can have our "record profits" so our stockholders can have their earnings.....



posted on Jul, 31 2011 @ 07:00 PM
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People will never learn. DON'T BITE THE HAND THAT FEEDS YOU!
You will never have a poor person, homeless person, welfare beneficiary
offer you a job! Learn a little humility and respect and most of all be grateful before their all gone.



posted on Jul, 31 2011 @ 07:04 PM
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I can't speak for anyone else. For me it comes down to a few simple questions: Can the wealthiest 1% of the country afford to pay more taxes? Can those at or below the poverty line afford to lose so-called entitlement programs? Can non-wealthy retirees afford to lose their social security and medicare? Can those at or below the poverty line (and even many middle class workers) afford to rely solely on private savings programs or investments for their future retirement?

When I look at it in those terms, it forces me to feel that raising tax revenues by increasing taxes on the most wealthy while also cutting spending in key areas would benefit the country as a whole more than keeping taxes right where they are cutting spending on entitlement programs.

That's just my personal opinion. I respect everyone else's views on the issue. I also understand the feeling of, "I worked for my money so I should be able to keep all of it." I do. But for me personally, the welfare of other human beings outweighs the desire by the most wealthy to keep the majority of their vast personal wealth.

Just my two cents. Peace.



posted on Jul, 31 2011 @ 07:05 PM
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I've read a lot of the OP's other posts, and have concluded he is far from enlightened and is a rather young individual. His topic reminds me of a quote by John Steinbeck:



Socialism never took root in America because the poor see themselves not as an exploited proletariat but as temporarily embarrassed millionaires



posted on Jul, 31 2011 @ 07:08 PM
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I just find it really difficult to understand why an individual needs a billion dollars , say, and how they can live with themselves when they see all the pain and suffering on this planet, particularly the pain and suffering caused by the rich.

I'm more of a 'social redistributionist' and I know this will go down like a sack of shirts with the OP. It just pains me that those with money appear to refuse to see how their greed adversely affects others.

Either tax the rich or destroy the Military-Industrial Complex, or preferably both!



posted on Jul, 31 2011 @ 07:15 PM
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Originally posted by D1Useek
People will never learn. DON'T BITE THE HAND THAT FEEDS YOU!
You will never have a poor person, homeless person, welfare beneficiary
offer you a job! Learn a little humility and respect and most of all be grateful before their all gone.


Again, that is a common claim that isn't actually backed up with any real evidence. The wealthy are not fleeing the US for countries with lower tax rates.

But I hope you feel good groveling in the mud at your master's feet.



posted on Jul, 31 2011 @ 07:22 PM
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reply to post by D1Useek
 


well, let me first say....
I do respect my boss, and appreciate what he does...but he don't really strike me as being "rich"! better off, but well, not "rich" as in ceo of a major health insurance company, or oil company!!

but, well, if something we to happen to my husband, and there was no more income there, I am sorry, but the time my check got done paying the rent, the utilities, and the car so
I could get to work, well, it wouldn't be paying for the food I am afraid!!
so what would?? don't know, possibly the gov't if I were to go and apply and found to make less than their cutoff....
don't bite the hand that feeds me?? that's the problem around a quarter or more of the population at the moment are fed by the gov't....



posted on Jul, 31 2011 @ 07:35 PM
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Originally posted by Scytherius
reply to post by neo96
 


My god your cluelessness is astounding. UNBELIEVABLE. The rich have tax breaks, tax shelters, etc that keep them from, in many instances, paying ANY taxes. You are concrete proof of why America is in such terrible shape. It is an uninformed citizenry that knows pretty much nothing about anything. I am just flooered that you actually think you have just made an argument. Utterly insane.


Yet on every thread he will constantly bitch that half the country pays no taxes!!! When the rich don't, it's good because theft is wrong. When some dude in Idaho builds roofs off the books he's a thief himself


This guy has no shame. Just the same backward rhetoric that Fox spews. The rich rape the country and they (Neo) ask for more!

He definitely has 'no taxes tourettes'. I must pay loads when I work 26 hrs overtime, but the CEO of Exxon doesn't because he loves Reagan. Those are the rules.


edit on 31-7-2011 by spinalremain because: (no reason given)

edit on 31-7-2011 by spinalremain because: (no reason given)

edit on 31-7-2011 by spinalremain because: (no reason given)



posted on Jul, 31 2011 @ 07:38 PM
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I am a tax attorney. I know for a fact that many high wealth individuals pay little or nothing in taxes. These individuals have aggressive tax planning strategies that are questionably legal, yet they get away with paying little or nothing in taxes. Many wealthy people, whose tax planning strategies are completely legal, pay nowhere near the nominal 35% rate.



posted on Jul, 31 2011 @ 08:15 PM
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Originally posted by D1Useek
People will never learn. DON'T BITE THE HAND THAT FEEDS YOU!
You will never have a poor person, homeless person, welfare beneficiary
offer you a job! Learn a little humility and respect and most of all be grateful before their all gone.


This right here is the problem.

To people like this everything is one way. All money flows down from the employer to the employee. How stupid is that?. Before that money can flow 'down', it has to be made. Who performs the work that consumers pay money to obtain, the manager or the employee? If the owner/manager is the person who earns all the money, why have employees at all?

The employees are the ones who are 'making' the money for the employer, not the other way around. Where are the calls for the humility, respect, and gratefulness on the owners part? That's the way it used to be. Most employers were very aware of the originators of their own income. The employees got paid as well as possible because without their labor there was no income.

Business is a two way street. Respect has to flow both ways or the system breaks and becomes lopsided like it is now. Our current economic system is not capitalist, it is corporatist. They are completely different. A true capitalist understands that it is necessary to tend the 'garden' of his or her market. If the garden dies, the capitalist starves.



posted on Jul, 31 2011 @ 08:16 PM
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First, the TEA PARTY is not a grass-roots movement, it is a KOCH INDUSTRIES movement. These brothers are worth about 14 billion a piece.

The people who are getting taxed 30, 33 and 35% are your small business owners who are crying that the rich are paying most of the taxes. I say don't raise their taxes.

But the thing is, they aren't the rich. The rich are people who don't have a job. They make all their money on investment profits. These profits are called Dividends, Capitol Gains, Stocks, Income and a host of other confusing words. Now these INVESTMENT are TAXed at 18% which is too low. Raise their taxes and close unfair loopholes.

U.S. working families earn an average of 36,000 a year and they are paying 25% in PAYROLL TAXES.

It isn't fair for a hedge fund billionaire to pay 18% to 0% taxes while families are paying 25%.

400 of the U.S.'s richest people are paying less than 18%. They aren't paying their fair share.



posted on Jul, 31 2011 @ 08:20 PM
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Correct me if I'm wrong, but tax is paid at a percentage is it not? So I made 42K last year and paid almost 9K, which is around 21%. If I would have made 42mil I would have paid 9 mil in taxes right? So if I were a rich person making 42 mil per year I am paying a butt load of taxes, why should I pay even more just to make the poor and middle class feel better?

My wife and I make about 70K gross income, in this day and age am I considered poor, lower middle, or middle? I still haven't figured this out. I would say lower middle, because we have no real retirement savings and a house that isn't worth anything.....

Answers?



posted on Jul, 31 2011 @ 08:23 PM
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reply to post by gnosis111
 


Because they get better tax breaks also, write offs etc.. Also its an emergency for America right now (just look at every other hype thread here for proof of that) anyone who has saught shelter under an American flag, made money as an American business man, and claimed our freedoms we have fought for owes it to the nation to do what they can. The rich just happen to be in a place that they can do more then others.

What i find funny, they trick the poor and middle class into paying it for them and standing up for them.. When the poor and middle class can not afford it and no one stands up for you.
edit on 31-7-2011 by ShogunAssassins because: (no reason given)



posted on Jul, 31 2011 @ 08:27 PM
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reply to post by gnosis111
 


You would be considered "Upper middle class".


If middle class households earning between the 50th percentile ($46,000) and the 85th percentile ($62,500) tend to live in lower cost of living areas, then their difference in real income may be smaller than what the differences in nominal income suggest.



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