So You Think "The Rich" Aren't Paying There Fair Share"

If, for example, you paid even $1 in tax in 1989, you paid more taxes that Chrysler, Xerox, and IBM combined. They paid NO tax. Welcome to the business of accounting masterminds.

Originally posted by neo96
yep yep being rich is easy oh wait if it was so easy everyone would be rich but but wait hmmm

Being rich is super easy if you have no moral code... Stealing/scamming lots of money isn't exactly hard... it's really easy, but you just have to be ruthless.

Just look at Mark Zuckerberg. He didn't even build facebook.... he stole another teams source code. Social networking sites don't really cost money to operate. You make money off the data you sell... so it pays you to host it provided you get traffic. The guys who created what he now made billions off of are sitting empty handed.

Problem is -- honest people rarely make it.... Thieves often make it. Sure thieves fail... but most rich people were thieves.... Straight up.

being rich is possibly the easiest thing in the world, but becoming rich is one of the hardest.......
and its weird but the lottery in the uk is tax free, or at least i think it is, if i actually played it i would check but i prefer investment to gambling

Originally posted by hypervigilant
When you think about it lotteries are a tax that has been imposed on the poor people of the country...

This. A million times over, this comment alone.

The storied financial management of the capitalist. Do I charge (tax) one wealthy person for $100 or 1000 poor people for $1?

A predominant number of poor to lower middle class buy lottery tickets. Just as a predominant number smoke cigarettes. Thus, cigarette tax has little to nothing to do with health and almost everything to do with an additional tax on the poor.

So while your orignal post lacks depth and meaning, taking all the money at once is considerably unwise and will result in the larger amount taxed than the 20 year option. Solidifying the point of an earlier comment that sustained wealth is taxed at a lower rate and is easier to maintain than an influx of money.

In the 1980s a friend told me that he had made his first million and that the second was going to happen in a fraction of the time... That was because he was getting contract info for campaign contributions and off the record gifts of cash.... My former Father in law had signed pictures of Ronald and Nancy Reagan on the wall in his office and was also given info on investment deals and government contracts also... One of his granddaughters is pushing a private prison labor program called PEP on Facebook right now.... The space program has been turned over to outside contractors just like the no bid deals KBR Halliburton, Bechtel, and Black Water got... More and more of these companies have or are in the process of relocating to other countries in the far and middle east.

The Super Rich Are Out of Sight

But where are the super rich? An average of $117,500 is an upper-middle income, not at all representative of a rich cohort, let alone a super rich one. All such reports about income distribution are based on U.S. Census Bureau surveys that regularly leave Big Money out of the picture. A few phone calls to the Census Bureau in Washington D.C. revealed that for years the bureau never interviewed anyone who had an income higher than $300,000. Or if interviewed, they were never recorded as above the "reportable upper limit" of $300,000, the top figure allowed by the bureau's computer program. In 1994, the bureau lifted the upper limit to $1 million. This still excludes the very richest who own the lion's share of the wealth, the hundreds of billionaires and thousands of multimillionaires who make many times more than $1 million a year. The super rich simply have been computerized out of the picture.

dissidentvoice.org...

It's the super rich that need taxing. The ones who hide their fortunes in Cayman Island banks yet would never have made their fortunes had it not been for the American tax payer.

To grasp the true extent of wealth and income inequality in the United States, we should stop treating the "top quintile"--the upper-middle class--as the "richest" cohort in the country. But to do that, we need to look beyond the Census Bureau's cooked statistics. We need to catch sight of that tiny, stratospheric apex that owns most of the world.

reply to post by woodwardjnr

It's the super rich that need taxing. The ones who hide their fortunes in Cayman Island banks yet would never have made their fortunes had it not been for the American tax payer.

Exactly right. Thomas Jefferson wanted to tax the wealthy. But he was just a founding father nobody important.

"Taxes should be proportioned to what may be annually spared by the individual." - Thomas Jefferson to James Madison, 1784

reply to post by neo96


So, first you start off with the example of the lottery - which in, in essence, a poor tax. See, rich people don't spend very much on lotto tickets. The jackpot money? That came from the poor schmucks who bought tickets and didn't win. These people are overwhelmingly from the poor class. The lottery thus represents money taken from the pockets of the needy and given to the government with the chance that someday, one of their number will pull the winning numbers.

Then you cite an example that 47% of people are either too poor to pay taxes, or are so rich that they are allowed all sorts of breaks, loopholes, and tax evasion schemes. And you think this further supports your argument. Those folks who are not making enough money to pay taxes actually are still paying taxes - their paychecks get bites taken out of them every payday. It's just that the income taxes they pay come back to them the next year.

You really don't know how this works, do you, Neo?

reply to post by neo96


Which still leaves them with 16 billion dollars, doesn't it?

The poor dears. Someone needs to start a charity.

Since prices are the same for all customers (in fact, cheaper in some cases for the wealthy, "preferred customer" perks and the like) the loss of $4 billion in taxes is completely negligible in the real world. Hell, they could be losing 18 of 20 billion every year and not see their practical buying power diminished in any way.

Unless they want to buy the Yucatan I suppose.

I think what the "the rich people need to pay more tax!" sayers are really advocating, is balance in the system.
Balance as in equal resources to all, no class divides, no status divides, no greed contributing factors, no envy-feeding factors.

To solve this with tax adjustments is just a naive way of putting it, not seing the bigger picture.

This system is inherently unbalanced.

We need a new system.

As someone who has just had the IRS send me my 30 day notice of intent to Levy, Take Possession of What Little I have, let me say this,
The Problem is Everyone still Pays their Taxes like good little Sheep.
I quit a number of years ago when it became evident the System is Broken, Evil and Fixed for the Wealthy.
I make less than 30,000 a year,, and have been trying to keep a foot in Middle class by keeping the House I bought when I had a better job. Yes,, I quit paying Taxes,,, had to, to keep the house mortgage current which it is at the moment,,, guess I won't pay August because they will be padlocking the house sometime later this month.

Everyone says,,, pay them something,,, they will work with you.

Sure,,, if I want to be a slave to the System that is Raping and destroying the country.

I refuse, I quit,,, and when they padlock my house,,,, if they don't arrest me for '''tax evasion'' I have decided Never to "Work" again. Will become a Nomad,,, and see America up close,, walk around, visit camp the remaining pieces of the American Dream before it goes under. And It is Going Under,,, ,, I will become a third world citizen of AmeriKa.

The End of America Is Here People,,,, and the Rich, Wealthy and Elite took us all for a ride,,, and they will just skip off to somewhere else,,,, as they are really World Citizens,,, not American anyway. This planet is going down,,, at least the "Civilized" parts... So back to the woods,,,, whats left of them... we are going to be cavemen again soon.

There has to be a better way,,, I have no problem paying my fair share,,, if that is defined somehow where everyone is contributing fairly and at a same rate.

but,,, this system,,,,
Not Paying into it. It is Evil and Destroying America and much of the World.

So,,, if Exxon and others don't have to pay,,, I am not either.
Anyone with me,,,????

I thought Not...

Chickens and Sheep.

Originally posted by neo96
so i hear that all the time on this board and i offer the something to ponder and i am going to use the lottery to either prove or disprove the urban myth.

everyone has heard of the powerball its projected jackpot tonite is $133,000 dollars

so if you take the cash option which is $69,800,000 that what you get right?

well not so fast after federal and state taxes you lose half that which leaves you with around $34,450,000 million dollars after taxes.

over $30 million in taxes before you ever see a dime.

so tell me agian who isnt paying their fair share?

edit on 30-7-2011 by neo96 because: (no reason given)

ya know...after soo many zeros your point is lost really. Yes the rich pay taxes and yes its a whole chunk of money but they are STILL living lives that are so incredibly removed from the rest of the world you have to be damn near psychotic to justify or rationalize it as "right"...

get what I'm saying? The problem isn't that the Rich aren't paying taxes...its that they are...and they are STILL RICH...

At what point does money not matter anymore I mean really at what point does a human being say...I honestly do not have the capability within the span of my entire life to truly and rightfully enjoy all the luxuries I have...

What is the point of having a garage full of cars? A house large enough to qualify as a "complex" that requires its own "staff" to manage and upkeep...with so many rooms one couldn't possibly be utilizing them all?

The problem isn't that the rich aren't paying their taxes...its that they ARE....and they are STILL so grossly rich it creates such a disconnect from the rest of the world they cannot function on a level that is beneficial to anyone other than "their kind"...

Yea Neo... I hear your 'capitalism is God' BS in every relevant thread on ATS. What a load of crap. If your contentions are true then how do you explain this:

link


The flaw in your argument is that we are an economy based on capitalism. That ceased to be the case a very long time ago. We are, once again, a feudal society based on corporatism and fraud. Things are not black-and-white. There can be a social balance without socialism or communism. There is no need in this country for people to be hungry and homeless while those exploiting OUR collective resources bank billions. And then use their wealth to further exploit the politcal system to further their gains. We should be ashamed of what we have allowed to happen. And the shoe WILL drop --- mark my words.

Originally posted by neo96
so i hear that all the time on this board and i offer the something to ponder and i am going to use the lottery to either prove or disprove the urban myth.

everyone has heard of the powerball its projected jackpot tonite is $133,000 dollars

so if you take the cash option which is $69,800,000 that what you get right?

well not so fast after federal and state taxes you lose half that which leaves you with around $34,450,000 million dollars after taxes.

over $30 million in taxes before you ever see a dime.

so tell me agian who isnt paying their fair share?

edit on 30-7-2011 by neo96 because: (no reason given)

No doubt there are some rich who pay taxes...the very rich who own corporations ..and foundations..and bogus charities have found all the right loopholes... a lottery winner doesn't have those options.

if I had that much money drop out of thin air onto my table, I wouldn't mind so much to give half of it to uncle sam, what the heck, I'd still have more than enough left behind....

once upon a time there was a great teacher, and he would go and preach at various temples in the land of egypt. one day he and his companions were watching the people as they came in and were giving donations to the temple. quite a few came and gave substantial amounts of money, for they were wealthy!! but then one old women came, in tattered clothes, and dropped a single coin into the collection plate. the great teacher spoke up and said of all that had given she had given the most!! why, just how could that be....
well, she had given all she had, she would go home penniless.....
all those rich went home and still got to enjoy their fine lifestyles, the fine food, their fine clothing.
and yes this is just revised version of a bibilical story...
to much is given, much is also required....
think of wealth as being a bit inflationary, the more you make, the more you have to give to make it fall under the category of "sacrifice"!!

now, just how much would the wall street player pay if he got lucky and earned that much money???

I personally don't think any argument, for the increased taxation of the rich, makes any sense. The US government cannot keep it's finances in order, it cannot balance its budget, it cannot effectively utilize tax money to put towards quality social programs. The tax system is completely broken, as has been suggested, so let me add this small analogy:

If you run a business, and you have several employees who are unproductive and not doing their jobs for the betterment of the company, and are running your company broke....do you try to fix this problem by giving these employees a pay raise or a bigger budget to work with? No, that would be the last thing you would do. And you certainly wouldn't make your customers pay more to compensate for your employees ineptitude. So why do we feel the need to give our government reps (OUR employees) a bigger budget to further screw things up?

Instead of increasing taxes on the rich, simply because it isn't "fair", I think we need to make our government reps learn to work with less budget and reduced taxes across the board. Then maybe we can open the door for small businesses to thrive without being taxed to death, and create a little competition in the markets so we aren't giving everything we earn to Wal-Mart, Exxon, and GE. And besides all that, what is that increased tax revenue going to go for anyway? More business subsidies to monopolistic companies, ridiculous government contracts, and more aircraft carriers. And more hands-down-your-pants security checkpoints. The poor will never see it, so there's no point in raising taxes further.

Originally posted by dawnstar
if I had that much money drop out of thin air onto my table, I wouldn't mind so much to give half of it to uncle sam, what the heck, I'd still have more than enough left behind....

Many people in other countries with no money at all might see most of us as extravagant and evil because we don't sacrifice a steak on the weekends to feed our poor neighbors, as we throw a barbecue instead. How many of us could give away quite a bit of what we have and still be fine? And before anyone says that they are in debt... if you have a roof over your head, food other than rice and beans, and a set of clothes then you are sitting pretty well off compared to many.

My point is that I don't believe these things should be discussed with subjective experiences as arguing points. The problem isn't what we 'feel' we would do if we had money but what is fair. Judging someone else based on what you feel you would do isn't really fair, in my opinion.

I think that if we are to subject people to rules, then we need to get as objective as possible, because we all don't have the same experiences or morals.

I wonder if it would be possible to break these arguments down to the most basic philosophical principles behind the majority of standpoints: Perhaps something like:

Many people believe that no one has a right to force other people to give away something that they have earned. Many other people believe that we have a real duty to provide for those that can not help themselves, and a duty to keep our society going.

I bet if we broke these arguments down to the basics, we'd find many of those arguing might be coming from the exact same basic standpoint (and maybe those agreeing might have very opposing grounds from which they stand)

reply to post by AlphaBetaGammaX


To try and conflate the accumulated wealth held by the wealthiest 1% in the United states with the moderately wealthy or the middle class is absurd. This is not about people earning a few hundred thousand. And htis is most certainly not about the middle class.

No matter how much you try and offer apologies and excuses for these very richest of the rich, the basic fact of economics can not be changed; that much accumulated wealth is detrimental to the well being of the economy. The economy is doing well when money is changing hands, often. Not when it is holed up off shore accounts.

Every individual should pay a tax at the same % rate of income. The reason the tax code is so large is so that the rich can pay accounting professionals to exploit the loopholes that the politicians are paid to create.

If everyone pays the same there is no cause for complaint. The fact is that in the USA the rich can pay less than the middle. The rich stroll off into the sunset leaving the struggling middle to support the poor and the costs of empire.

This will continue until the middle class wheezes its last breath and the system breaks down entirely. Not too much longer.

reply to post by neo96


THAT IS NOT A FAIR COMPARISON!!! That pertains to THE LOTTERY NOT TOP TIER TAX BRACKETS. Do a LITTLE research before posting for Fords sake.