Originally posted by poet1b
Sorry to take so long to get back to you.
No problems. Busy day today, so I'll try to keep this brief.
Why do you keep saying that people must work for free "to build and maintain the infrastructure for us to get all of this stuff for free?"
Because it won't build itself. people have to build and maintain it, and if those people are to be paid, money has to come from somewhere. If they are
not to be paid, then it can be fairly said that they are working for free.
It is as if you are programmed to think that you must work for others in order to get stuff.
No, it's really not like that at all, and I'm not sure how you arrive at that.
Long ago I figured out that when I work for myself, I create about 4 times more wealth for myself than when I work at some corporation.
Long ago I figured out that when I work for myself, I don't have to put up with as much crap. I've never been concerned with "creating wealth", as
long as I'm making it OK, that's enough. Wealth isn't much of an issue for me, although I can see how too much of it could become a problem. I don't
like problems. Problems become issues with me.
What does the U.S. produce? The biggest thing we produce is technology. Apple is now the biggest company in the world. If it wasn't for oil
imports, we wouldn't have a trade deficit. Most cars bought in America, are primarily made in America. The most made in America automobile is
actually a Honda. You really need to look at the economic output of the U.S.. We produce far more per capita than any other country.
ever cracked open one of those computers and seen where it was really
made? How about your car? The last new car I bought was in 1988. It was
allegedly built by Ford, but said "Hecho en Mexico" on every single part. I never bought another one.
Where is Honda's HQ? I mean, where did they originate?
I build computers for grins and giggles, so I'm well acquainted with where the technology really comes from. I've never, ever claimed one of my
computers was "made in America" just because I slapped the parts together in my living room.
If you are not aware of how amazing the U.S. economy is compared to the rest of the world, than that ought to be a major indicator of how badly you
I might be misinformed now, since I don't travel much any more. In the past I have been to places where, I kid you not, people ate dirt as if it were
actual food. Don't know how it is out there now. I have to say, though, that if the US economy is better than the rest of the world, then I don't
believe there's any hope. we as a planet are doomed.
Like your grand dad, I make my own computers, although kits are hard to come by. I have to figure out what I want it to do, what parts are necessary
to make it do that, and then make a list and head to a wholesaler. Still, the principle is the same, and I get what you're saying.
I also understand what you mean by the population being mostly rural until the mid 20th century. NONE of my family lived in an urban area until 1954
or 55. that lasted all of 10 years, when we moved out to a rural area just outside the city where we could farm, and THAT lasted all of 10 years when
we finally moved back to the relative wilderness. I grew up farming.
they were pretty independent. That is how things could and should go back to being.
I agree. Farming and hunting is what fed me. Anything that we needed that we could
make ourselves, we did. I learned how to blacksmith at 14.
My dad made our stove, which heated the house, and the fuel came out of the woods - dragged out by horses, or sometimes just me. I cut it, split it,
stacked it, and burned it. I can tell you first hand that doing it that way will warm you up 3 times, only the last of which is when you actually
stack it in the fire. Dad always insisted that we learn to do whatever we could on our own, and to that end he taught us how to do it - with a
tractor, with horse, or on our own if neither tractors nor horses were available.
He taught us to hunt with whatever was available. I have actually hunted with nothing more than rocks which I picked up on the spot, and been
successful. He taught us how to build, and repair what was already built, ourselves.
Independence is a good
thing, as far as I'm concerned. According to some here, it may have left me something less than completely sane,
however, and most do not believe it when I tell how I grew up, but still, it gives me some insight into the truth of what you said there. I can't
blame folks for not believing me - it's an entirely alien concept to people in developed nations these days, where most urban kids think steaks come
from the grocery store, and nothing beyond that.
Big corporations worked hard to destroy the family farms and so our independence.
I can't say much about that, since I'm not on the farm any more. I don't know what they're doing in that regard, but I haven't heard anything along
those lines from back home. I can say with a completely straight face, however, that they'll NEVER be able to keep me from feeding myself, as long as
I'm still drawing breath. One thing I can fault them for is "sinking" my mom's well. From what I understand, a mining company - don't know if it was a
coal company or a gas company, mom said coal, but it sounds more like gas to me - did something untoward that caused the water table to drop, and
consequently a lot of wells around there were "sunk". It was a hell of a fight, I reckon, but they wound up re-drilling new wells for all the ones
that were lost. I understand that gas "fracking" can do that sort of thing, but she insisted it was a coal mining company.
Wow!!!! do you seriously think the poor rob from the rich?????
Actually, no. that was rhetoric. What I DO believe is that government steals from the rich - and everyone else, too, but they seem to prefer preying
on the rich for larger hauls - and use a portion of those ill-gotten gains to buy off the poor, keep them in servitude to the government, and thereby
gain their support. While the poor don't directly steal from the rich, they don't usually refuse a cut of the haul, which makes them just as guilty as
accessories. They seem not to realize that those funds are being used to keep them dependent on government, in servitude.
Or perhaps the bulk no longer even care.
I believe a fair tax system would mean people pay for the services they get from government, and under the free market preaching repub admins who
created almost all of our huge fed gov deficit, almost all the services provided by government served the super rich, and worked against working class
I might be able to sign on for that plan, provided that one is able to refuse those services. Otherwise, it's no different from Guido and Nunzio
dropping by to collect the weekly "insurance" payment. I prefer my plan - everyone pays their share, no one skates out through loopholes, government
is kept to a manageable size and reasonable services, within the confines of what they collect. No government borrowing, no government debt used just
to increase it's size, reach, and control.
If the fact that under repub admins, they refuse to protect our borders, allowing illegal immigrants to invade our country at will doesn't demonstrate
this adequately, than 9/11 sure should have.
Whoa there! It's not just the Republican administrations that have utterly failed in border protection! I note that after 2 1/2 years of Obama, they
are STILL not sealed, nor were they under Clinton, nor Carter, on back. Nossir, it's ALL of them failing us, not just the Republicans.
Matter of fact, I believe all the 9/11 assassins came in on Brother Clinton's watch.
With our current tax system, working peoples income taxes are being used to subsidize corporate operations, lowering the costs of corporate goods, or
in otherwise, working people in the U.S. are subsidizing the exportation of their own jobs. That is plain wrong. That is how the rich are robbing
the middle class of the U.S..
Which is why I was against the "stimulus" under both Bush and Obama. When there is willful malfeasance and mismanagement, there is no such thing as
"too big to fail". If they can't swim, let 'em sink. It's a sure bet that neither government nor corporations would bother to roll you or I over if we
were drowning in an inch of water in a ditch.
Inheritance taxes should definitely be used to tax the super wealthy. That is to get all the taxes they rightfully owe, that they managed to hide.
Personally, I don't think people like Paris Hilton pay enough taxes.
I still believe in equal representation under the law. I can't justify taxing them at a higher rate than I am taxed at, or for things I would not be
taxed for. Conversely, I don't think they should be allowed to weasel out of taxes through the loopholes.
I fully agree with you on capital gains taxes, as the current system exists, I see it as nothing but legalized gambling. The huge bite that the
finance markets take out of our economy is criminal IMO, and the TPers sure don't want anything to be done about it. That ought to tell you exactly
whose side they are really on.
It's that sort of thing which is at fault in wrecking the economy, in my opinion. Too many private speculators given too much control over the
economy. I'm not talking about corporations here, I'm talking about the gamblers and speculators on Wall Street. Trading in commodity "futures" should
be banned outright, and carry a stiff prison sentence. that allows far too much manipulation of pricing. I've not heard the Tea Party address that
issue at all, one way or the other, so I don't know that they "don't want anything done about it" - it may be that they just haven't cleaned the
government up yet, and so have not turned to such matters yet.
One thing is sure, though - had they got their way and eliminated government borrowing, there would have been a lot of folks on Wall Street crying
real tears, watching their cash cow go dry. In my opinion, THAT is why it was not allowed, despite TP efforts. Seriously, what happens to the debt
trading when the biggest debtor of all just stops borrowing at all, and pay off what it owes, down to -0- ?
In all my dealings the IRS, I have found them to be a decent organization, while all my dealing with banks, investment firms, and a large number of
insurance companies, they have consistently demonstrated to me that they are crooks. If you have had similar experiences, why do you continue to
blame the government for the crooked actions of private institutions.
I don't deal with banks or insurance companies at all, and never again will - regardless of the fact that the government is ordering me to. As a
matter of fact, those orders to buy insurance are a large part of my current gripe against government. It is nothing more than another example of the
government guaranteeing an income to those who are eating us up from within - the parasites. I don't blame the government for the actions of the
institutions, I blame the government for their own complicity in those actions.
Um, a drivers license is a state requirement, not a fed gov requirement.
Ever heard of "Real ID"?
The fed gov should not regulate peoples lives, except when it involves activities that cross state borders. For example, if someone kidnaps someone
else in one state, and drives them to another, then the fed gov should step in and do some regulating, or in otherwise, enforcement of the law.
Actually, I see the "individual mandate" as a big fat bite out my my ass in a regulatory manner. MY ass. ME. As an individual. I count that as
"regulating people's lives", and am in agreement that the federal government should stay within the boundaries set for it constitutionally -
regulating disputes between states, and commerce that actually takes place across state lines, rather than misuse of the Commerce Clause to regulate
things that "might", someday, affect something some where in another state, especially when it plainly won't. There have been a lot of examples of
that sort of abuse.
IMO, the state, county, and city governments are the ones who do most of abuse against individual rights, and our fed government does not do enough to
protect people against the abuses heaped by local governments.
That's not the federal government's place, nor it's mandate. That responsibility lies with the people of that state. As a matter of fact, the feds are
facilitating that by funding state and local police forces, to enforce those abuses and facilitate them. that isn't a federal responsibility or
It is my opinion that corporations have managed gain too much control over our political process through the con job of the free market, and phony
baloney organizations like the TPers who only pretend to be against gov corruption, when they are complete for the lobbyists and corruption of the
Which lobbyists are they for? have you got any concrete examples of that? It would be especially helpful if you could point out any exclusive to the
TP, which the other, entrenched, politicians aren't dealing with. As near as I can tell, the Tea Party folks are probably the least tainted by
lobbyists and corruption, although I'm sure that will change if they stay in DC long enough.
You might want to consider that you live in the best country in the world, like most people on this planet. Then yo9u might want to consider that the
quality of our government is the biggest factor.
"Size" does not translate to "quality". As a matter of fact, all of the most repressive governments in history have had size on their side.
Those who seek to undermine the U.S. government, like the TPers, are not looking out for your best interest.
Depends on how and what parts they undermine. There are just plain a lot of federal agencies in place that serve no useful purpose. It could stand
some pruning back.
The TPers are exactly like the Bu#es/Reaganites, free market, Mises, communist preaching, elites who seek to destroy the U.S. government and enslave
Yeah, that's why I had to hyphenate "Bush-ites". I'm not sure what a "Mise" is, but I don't equate Reaganites with Bush-ites. World of difference
there. As I said above, the U.S. government could stand a bit of destruction, just as a controlled fire clears out the weeds and underbrush. I
wouldn't want to eliminate it altogether, and have seen no evidence that the TP DOES want that, despite the rhetoric that flies.
Speaking of rhetoric, Maxine Waters' recent comments have all but convinced me to throw my lot in with the Tea Party. I have never caught her being on
the correct side of any issue, and if she feels THAT strongly about the TP, and fears them THAT much, then obviously she thinks they are a threat to
her agenda, which makes them natural allies of folks who prefer freedom. You might want to have a word with her about that, before she drives more
folks that way.
I want a party that supports making the super rich pay their fair share, because they certainly do not, and start protecting our borders, and
enforcing laws against white collar crime, writing trade agreements that represent the interests of the people of the U.S. over the interests ICs and
therefore elites. That is what we need.
I think we are in agreement as to the goal, we just differ in how to best accomplish that.
I agree with you on freedom, I just think cars and women are worth the cost benefit ratio.
I've probably just dealt with the wrong kind of cars and hung out with the wrong sort of women...
I had a look at that thread, but it's beyond me, and grown too far for me to catch up anyhow.
So much for keeping it brief!
edit on 2011/8/23 by nenothtu because: (no reason given)