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Why Freemasonry is Bad

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posted on Aug, 16 2004 @ 03:28 AM
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Freemasonry is PERFECTLY exemplified by the masons who post their caustic responses to people in this forum. Rather than spread humility, freemasonry produces pride, arrogance and a supremecy complex. Alex and Theron are prime examples of this. They follow the code of, "You are ignorance, I am more superior than you." I have some news for you masons. God loathes the proud. Before you call me unchristian why don't you examine yourself? Christians don't tell other Christians to check into mental hospitals. And don't think for a SECOND that the rituals of freemasonry will save you. You are saved through Jesus, not through the rituals of freemasonry. Believing that you will achieve salvation through your works as masons is just as ludicrous as when people thought they would be saved through the Pope's issuing of indulgences.

Christians DO NOT leave open the possibilities for the Supreme Being. The Supreme Being is the God of Abraham. There are no possibilities for the Supreme being.

For initiates you hoodwink the candidates and put them in darkness! That is a clearly and absolutely WRONG. CHRISTIANS at no time should be placed in darkness. How dare you put a follower of Jesus in darkness. The simple fact that you Threaten your candidates is horrible. If the secrets of freemasonry are honest and furthur the followers of God, then why do they have to be secret? Why do you not divulge secrets to your fellow Christians to better their devotion to God? If it does not benefit Christianity, why would you claim that your intentions are noble. Any good christian serves God before his country or community.

But the case is, Freemasonry accepts anyone who believes in a supreme being. So freemasonry betters the following of the "Great Architect of the Universe, which means freemasonry is bettering a God OTHER than God of the Bible. No twisting of yours you can ever concoct could ever shoot down this statement.

This is more to this. Masons do not make a distinction between the Bible, Koran, Jewish Books or the Vedas. A Christian masons who leads a non-believer in making an oath upon another book of worship should be EXCOMMUNICATED from all Christian Churches. You are putting your worship to God second to helping a non-believer further his beliefs.

News flash for christians. Besides the New and Old testaments, no other books are valid. Why do you accept them in your presence?

YOU DO NOT NEED a T-Square or Compass to furthur your devotion to God. It has no worth at all. It has no place in the worship of God of the Bible. According to the Bible, God did not use a T-square or a compass to create the world. He his the WORD and himself. God does not need tools to create, he fashions them in and of himself.

And what is this phony claim that if you use a Gavel to chip away rough stone, you will be saved? Ever heard that you are saved from the Sacrafice that Jesus made for everyone? It has nothing to do with you using your, "Gavel" to chip away rough stone. Get rid of the Gavel, God did not give you a Gavel to chip away your sins, it has NO importance in christianity.

Good Works without the faith in Jesus WILL NOT get you into heaven. Don't listen to the masons when they tell you good works a lone will get you there. That is ludicrous.

PROVE to ME where in Freemasonry that Faith in Jesus a lone can give you salvation? You can't find a situation can you? You know what that means if you can't find it! Freemasonry does not promote one of the MOST important parts of Christianity... yet it allows the promotion of other religions. What a great deed you have done for God.

An apron does not help you AT ALL in getting salvation. There is no need for the Apron. It is another toy to please those with excessive pride.

Look at this:

"Masonry teaches the practice of all good morals, leaving the interpretation of right and wrong to the individual conscience.
(Lodge System of Masonic Education, Book 1, page 7)"http://www.fish4masons.org/issues/fm101.html

LEAVING INTERPRETATION OF RIGHT AND WRONG TO THE INDIVIDUAL CONSIENCE? Where if i may ask is that in the Bible? That is not what Christians are taught WHATSOEVER!

Masons, did you not read: "Romans 10:3 - "For they being ignorant of God's righteousness, and going about to establish their own righteousness, have not submitted themselves unto the righteousness of God."

"The Trowel is an instrument used by Operative Masons to spread the cement which unites the building into one common mass; but we, as Free and Accepted Masons, are taught to use it for the more noble and glorious purpose of spreading the cement of brotherly love and affection,-that cement which unites us into one sacred band, or society of friends and brothers, among whom no contention should ever exist, save that noble contention, or rather emulation, of who can best work and best agree."
www.fish4masons.org...

Sorry, the Trowel has NOTHING to do with uniting. That is for the holy spirit.

In short, Freemasons are excessively proud, arrogant, deny the signifigance of the Father, Son and Holy Spirit and help promote Gods other than the God of the Bible. And the Sacred Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith agrees.

By the way masons, the oath you make is null and void, so feel free to tell us about your secret handshakes and passwords.

[edit on 16-8-2004 by DetectivePerez]




posted on Aug, 16 2004 @ 05:06 AM
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Actually, your post only goes to show that there is so much wrong with Christianity - not Freemasonry.

Take for example your line "Believing that you will achieve salvation through your works as masons is just as ludicrous as when people thought they would be saved through the Pope's issuing of indulgences."
As a Freemason, I don't do good works so that I may achieve Salvation. I don't make a trade with God as many Christians do - believe in so and so and you'll go to heaven, live your life like this and you will be rewarded. I do what I do because it is the natural thing to do and I don't ask for a reward. I have a humble hope that I may one day receive God's favour but I don't live my life by that hope. I live my life the way I do because I choose to. Not because I'm told to and not because a theological body gives me the carrot and stick treatment.

And there is your major problem Defective Perez. You've swallowed somebody else's doctrine and dogma without really ever looking for the truth yourself.
Your post is just one long tirade about Salvation. Salvation that you need, desire and believe that you will receive if you follow somebody else's words. It's the overwhelming desire of nearly every fundamentalist Christian on this planet. But who are you really worshipping if your over-riding reason for worship is Salvation? Who are you worshipping for?



In short, Freemasons are excessively proud, arrogant, deny the signifigance of the Father, Son and Holy Spirit and help promote Gods other than the God of the Bible.


Well, that's just a total and utter lie. Many Freemasons are Christians.
As for the God of the Bible?
You seriously need to study the book and then look at history. You'll find that even the "God" of the Bible has more than one name.



posted on Aug, 16 2004 @ 05:23 AM
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DP,

I *finally* figured out what your problem is. You can't discern between a fraternal society (a brotherhood of all man-kind) (Remember. . . the one's God made in his image?) and a religion.

No Freemason believes that Freemasonry will save his soul. Freemasonry simply helps him be a better human being...better to his fellow-creatures. Period.

To believe otherwise would be folly.

FREEMASONRY:

No dogma. No Plan of Salvation. No promise of eternal life simply by being a Freemason.

FREEMASONRY.

NOT NOT NOT a religion.



posted on Aug, 16 2004 @ 06:23 AM
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News flash for christians. Besides the New and Old testaments, no other books are valid.


While I am not a mason, this is untrue. Remember, the bible as we know it was put together by the old roman catholic church. There are many other books that were written by Christ's disciples and were not included - many books that were written by true followers of Christ that were not included. To think that the bible is all there is, with its mistakes due to man's interpretations and flawed memory is by far worse to think than to be a mason who actually helps people out instead of just walking a good walk. It is by your fruits that you will be judged.

In fact, I am looking into joining them for the simple reason that they produce more fruits than the churches I have seen.



posted on Aug, 16 2004 @ 06:30 AM
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This is alway a problem with the Christian religion...."most" Christians don't even know their own religion....there are actually people who argue that Jesus wasn't a Jew, that he really was born on December 25th
, that he himself started the religion.....the list could go on but you understand what I'm saying.....



posted on Aug, 16 2004 @ 06:34 AM
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Originally posted by senrak
No Freemason believes that Freemasonry will save his soul. Freemasonry simply helps him be a better human being...better to his fellow-creatures. Period.


Yes helps you become "better"...

a better college, a better job, a better tax-cut etc.

Generally a foot-up in the world.



posted on Aug, 16 2004 @ 06:57 AM
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Originally posted by Corinthas

Originally posted by senrak
No Freemason believes that Freemasonry will save his soul. Freemasonry simply helps him be a better human being...better to his fellow-creatures. Period.


Yes helps you become "better"...

a better college, a better job, a better tax-cut etc.

Generally a foot-up in the world.



Again, a complete and utter lie.
I hate to say it and don't wish to sound as if I'm blowing my own trumpet, but I've put far more into Freemasonry financially than I've ever got out. In fact current running financial totals are -

Put in: 1000s of pounds.
Got out: Nothing.

Freemasonry is not a financial institute. Nor is it a "good old boy's" network as many would have you believe. Freemasons aren't masons because they can make money.
But that doesn't mean that there aren't some benefits. The natural kickback from masonry is that you learn about yourself - your goals, capabilities, ambitions, etc. And when you learn about yourself, you are able to put things into practice to further yourself. That's down to you as an individual though - not financial aid from anyone or anything else.

Of course there will always be those who accuse Freemasonry of being a way for a lazy, unintelligent man to get to the top. But this false accusation is normally made by those who have failings in their own lives and are looking for a scapegoat to blame. The truth is that they should be looking at themselves first.



posted on Aug, 16 2004 @ 07:15 AM
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I never said lazy or unintelligent, in fact its quite a clever and thrifty way to ensure success in public life.

A classic example is the UK police force, wich counts a good few Masons abounst its ranks.
Another "hotbed" for members are the rail companies (various countries).

The houses of parliament (in holland) have the "et in arcadia ego" slogan chiseled (carved into stone, masonry?) into a wall by the pond outside. Clearly like a graffitti "tag" marking their territory.

So wether you join for these benefits and quirks or not, they are there; and "unintellignt" would only come into play if you didn't use those opportunities to your advantage.



posted on Aug, 16 2004 @ 07:34 AM
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Originally posted by Corinthas
So wether you join for these benefits and quirks or not, they are there; and "unintellignt" would only come into play if you didn't use those opportunities to your advantage.


No. It would be dishonest and immoral to create any financial benefit from Freemasonry in the way in which you imply. In fact, it is specifically against the Order's rules to do such a thing and anyone discovered benefitting in such a way would be asked to leave. As morality is a cornerstone of Freemasonry, it totally goes against everything that the Order stands for, to use it for one's own financial gain.

The opportunity for financial benefits may be there (as they are in almost every situation where people meet together) but they aren't offered and they aren't sought after and they are therefore negated and don't even come into the equation. I've personally only known of one person who joined because he thought he would benefit financially - he left within a year.

As for the UK police force containing a few Masons? The UK police is not over-represented in Freemasonry. There are statistically no more policemen than say, builders or shopkeepers.
"Et in Arcadia ego" is also not a masonic statement.



[edit on 16-8-2004 by Leveller]



posted on Aug, 16 2004 @ 10:37 AM
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oh my G-D do you masons actually believe your lies, scotland yard (police) why would it be called such a name!????? do you have a clue?, have you ever seen the place its one big temple/lodge.



posted on Aug, 16 2004 @ 10:49 AM
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Originally posted by DetectivePerez
Freemasonry is PERFECTLY exemplified by the masons who post their caustic responses to people in this forum. Rather than spread humility, freemasonry produces pride, arrogance and a supremecy complex.


This is what Freud called "projecting". It seems to me that it is you who are prideful, arrogant, and suffer from a (very comical) "supremacy complex". After all, you're the one beginning threads with such scholarly titles as "Why Freemasonry Is Bad"; you then claim that we're arrogant with supremacy complexes, and turn right around and claim that your beliefs are the "correct" ones, while attacking those of everybody else.

Sorry, kid, I don't think anybody's buying it, except may be for "Punisher" and "Necros". You guys have fun together.

Fiat Lvx.

[edit on 16-8-2004 by Masonic Light]



posted on Aug, 16 2004 @ 12:17 PM
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Well, Detective "Grasping-at-straws," you're in luck -- there are very few wild libels or cruel hoaxes newly posted this morning, so I have the time to go through your message piece-by-piece. Maybe (if we're all tremendously lucky) you can see how you're being foolish and ignorant.


Originally posted by DetectivePerez
Freemasonry is PERFECTLY exemplified by the masons who post their caustic responses to people in this forum. Rather than spread humility, freemasonry produces pride, arrogance and a supremecy complex. Alex and Theron are prime examples of this. They follow the code of, "You are ignorance, I am more superior than you."


I don't think you're "ignorance," the ideal substance. I merely think you're ignorant. I don't think this as an insult -- the remainder of your message quite clearly illustrates that you are ignorant. Additionally, there's no shame in ignorance... we were all ignorant at one time, and we're all still ignorant about an infinite number of subjects. The wise person, however, doesn't take the risk of hurting others by opening his mouth with unproven hostile accusations.



I have some news for you masons. God loathes the proud.


What kind of proud people? The kind who claim to know what God loves and loathes? Or perhaps those who arrogate to themselves the right to judge the inner states of others?



Before you call me unchristian why don't you examine yourself? Christians don't tell other Christians to check into mental hospitals.


I disagree. If someone is mad or otherwise unbalanced, and one felt that modern medicine could heal him or her, the only Christian thing would be to try to get them into a mental hospital using reasonable means. It's not the Christian way to turn aside and let the sick suffer.

You, on the other hand, are probably not significantly mentally sick... you're merely filled with unreasoning and unbalanced hatred, which is a spiritual, rather than a mental, illness.



And don't think for a SECOND that the rituals of freemasonry will save you. You are saved through Jesus, not through the rituals of freemasonry.


So I am saved anyway, right?



Believing that you will achieve salvation through your works as masons is just as ludicrous as when people thought they would be saved through the Pope's issuing of indulgences.


It's true... other forms of Christianity are just silly. Well, the fact is that you believe this, which is the important thing. But since you do believe this, shouldn't you also be spouting your hate on forums for Catholics and Unitarians? And, after all, there are many many non-Christians out there, too. Where's your venom for the Hindus? (Of course, I don't think you should spew your hate anywhere... if Satan is an entity, you're only tightening his grip on your soul by constantly hating).



Christians DO NOT leave open the possibilities for the Supreme Being. The Supreme Being is the God of Abraham. There are no possibilities for the Supreme being.


I'm not sure how anything I've said, or Freemasonry in general, has indicated anything related to what you've just written.



For initiates you hoodwink the candidates and put them in darkness! That is a clearly and absolutely WRONG. CHRISTIANS at no time should be placed in darkness.


True. After all, all Christians are given night-lights at their confirmation just for that purpose.

How insane can you be? A Christian cannot put a blindfold on someone else? So "pin-the-tail-on-the-donkey" is a Satanic game?



How dare you put a follower of Jesus in darkness. The simple fact that you Threaten your candidates is horrible.


No-one threatens my candidates, and if they did so, they'd have to deal with me, that's for darn sure. You may be speaking about the symbolic penalties of the obligation... they are along the same lines as "cross my heart and hope to die." Now, I know you're going to hate them anyway -- you can't help but hate -- but that is the fact of the matter.



If the secrets of freemasonry are honest and furthur the followers of God, then why do they have to be secret?


Right, and that's why we're going to install a camera in your bedroom, and broadcast the images of you sleeping in Trafalgar, Times, and Tiennamen squares. Also, pictures will be taken of you in the shower and going to the bathroom, and published in "Time" magazine. Every conversation you have with your parents and / or significant other will be broadcast on NPR. And your real name and address will be posted on this and every other forum you use. After all, secrets are unChristian.



Why do you not divulge secrets to your fellow Christians to better their devotion to God?


We most certainly to. All they have to do is join, and the secrets are theirs.



Any good christian serves God before his country or community.


Funny, that's exactly what Freemasonry teaches.



But the case is, Freemasonry accepts anyone who believes in a supreme being. So freemasonry betters the following of the "Great Architect of the Universe, which means freemasonry is bettering a God OTHER than God of the Bible.


So wait... you're saying that God is not the "Great Architect of the Universe?" So, someone other than God was the architect of the universe? Well, that's a pretty gnostic-dualistic belief for such a fundamentalist to have. Good thing that Freemasonry is tolerant of religious difference of opinion, otherwise, you might be condemned as a heretic.



No twisting of yours you can ever concoct could ever shoot down this statement.


That's a pretty arrogant statement.



This is more to this. Masons do not make a distinction between the Bible, Koran, Jewish Books or the Vedas.


Not true. They are most definitely different books. And there is not requirement that a Mason view them as all being holy books. I personally do, but that belief is not a "Masonic" one, but rather a personal one. Any Freemason is completely free to disagree with me on this issue.



A Christian masons who leads a non-believer in making an oath upon another book of worship should be EXCOMMUNICATED from all Christian Churches.


Uh- huh.... but we're the arrogant ones, eh? Does your face go all red when you scream that word "EXCOMMUNICATED?"

Also, what do you mean by "non-believer?" We don't allow atheists in our Lodges.



You are putting your worship to God second to helping a non-believer further his beliefs.


Nope. I'm simply helping another person who wishes to worship God as freely as I do.



News flash for christians. Besides the New and Old testaments, no other books are valid. Why do you accept them in your presence?


Because I don't agree with your narrow, arrogant, and hateful estimation of the Quran, the Vedas, and the Torah. Speaking of, you're surely not so ignorant that you think the Torah is different from the Old Testament?



YOU DO NOT NEED a T-Square or Compass to furthur your devotion to God. It has no worth at all.


First of all, there's no T-square involved in Freemasonry -- it's a set square. Maybe you should learn drafting tools, as I assure you it's a far more profitable hobby than hatemongering. Second, presumably one does not need any objects at all to worship God. Third, it is not the purpose of Lodge to worship God. The purpose of Lodge is to improve the individual through understanding of spirituality, symbolism, and philosophy.



And what is this phony claim that if you use a Gavel to chip away rough stone, you will be saved?


It certainly is a phony claim, since no Freemason has ever made that claim.



Ever heard that you are saved from the Sacrafice that Jesus made for everyone? It has nothing to do with you using your, "Gavel" to chip away rough stone. Get rid of the Gavel, God did not give you a Gavel to chip away your sins, it has NO importance in christianity.


Why get rid of the gavel? We're not using it to gain salvation, and as you said we don't need it for salvation... we use it to other ends.



Good Works without the faith in Jesus WILL NOT get you into heaven.


I don't want to argue "faith vs. works." I think it's an absurd argument, based on an absolutely infantile understanding of religion (the "I want to go to heaven, and that's the only purpose of religion" attitude). On this topic I will only quote Phillipians 2:12-13:


[12] Wherefore, my beloved, as ye have always obeyed, not as in my presence only, but now much more in my absence, work out your own salvation with fear and trembling.
[13] For it is God which worketh in you both to will and to do of his good pleasure.




PROVE to ME where in Freemasonry that Faith in Jesus a lone can give you salvation? You can't find a situation can you? You know what that means if you can't find it! Freemasonry does not promote one of the MOST important parts of Christianity... yet it allows the promotion of other religions.


Nope. No-one is allowed to "promote" their religion within Lodge. The Muslim cannot threaten that idolatry is going to send me to hell, the Hindu cannot threaten that I show insufficient praise to Krishna, etc.



An apron does not help you AT ALL in getting salvation.


Thank goodness that we don't tell anybody it will, then.



Look at this:

"Masonry teaches the practice of all good morals, leaving the interpretation of right and wrong to the individual conscience.
(Lodge System of Masonic Education, Book 1, page 7)"http://www.fish4masons.org/issues/fm101.html


The "Lodge system of Masonic Education," eh? Too bad I've never heard of it.



LEAVING INTERPRETATION OF RIGHT AND WRONG TO THE INDIVIDUAL CONSIENCE? Where if i may ask is that in the Bible? That is not what Christians are taught WHATSOEVER!


Hmmm. II Corinthians 1:12


[12] For our rejoicing is this, the testimony of our conscience, that in simplicity and godly sincerity, not with fleshly wisdom, but by the grace of God, we have had our conversation in the world, and more abundantly to you-ward.


I Timothy 1:5-7


[5] Now the end of the commandment is charity out of a pure heart, and of a good conscience, and of faith unfeigned:
[6] From which some having swerved have turned aside unto vain jangling;
[7] Desiring to be teachers of the law; understanding neither what they say, nor whereof they affirm.


Hebrews 13:18


[18] Pray for us: for we trust we have a good conscience, in all things willing to live honestly.


Sounds like conscience is an important part of the equation of fidelity to God's law.



Masons, did you not read: "Romans 10:3 - "For they being ignorant of God's righteousness, and going about to establish their own righteousness, have not submitted themselves unto the righteousness of God."


"and going about to establish thier own righteousness." Sounds like you, DP.



Sorry, the Trowel has NOTHING to do with uniting. That is for the holy spirit.


Ha! Yes. Completely ignore the explanation you quoted. After all, reading and understanding -- they're Satanic.


And the Sacred Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith agrees.


Hmmm... First, you're an anti-Papist, then you're using a Papal organisation to prove your point? Smart move, Detective Hateful.

The Sacred Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith (formerly known as "The Inquisition") certainly has a long history of fair and reasoned behaviour. Perhaps if we bring back the iron maiden and the thumbscrews, all would be well, eh?



By the way masons, the oath you make is null and void, so feel free to tell us about your secret handshakes and passwords.


Nope, it's not. It's not an oath, and it's not null and void. It's not an oath because it's not sworn "by" anything. It is an obligation, an event purely between myself and God. Are you claiming you have the right to nullify something between me and God? Now who's arrogant.

Beside that, we see what DP really wants... he just wants to know the passwords and secret "handshakes."

[edit on 16-8-2004 by AlexKennedy]



posted on Aug, 16 2004 @ 12:24 PM
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I'm sorry, but aren't there enough "anti-mason" threads around here? I'm pretty sure just as many "pro-mason" threads.

This topic has been covered over and over and over. I'd hate to be a party crasher, but shouldn't one search before posting another OMGMASONSEVIL thread?

Just my $0.02.



posted on Aug, 16 2004 @ 12:35 PM
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DP, I just checked the Merriam-Webster Unabridged Dictionary and right next to arrogant was your picture!

You call me arrogant because I point out the error of your position, and your refusal to recognize the facts that are presented to you, and your dearth of factual information that you bring to bear on this subject... and I am arrogant?

It seems to me the HEIGHT of arrogance to come to a group of honorable and peaceful men, stick your finger in our faces and then, without a shred of facts and only uninformed opinions, start to make outlandish and ridiculous claims... and then to expect NOT TO BE CALLED ON IT by the very men you are slandering... or perhaps it is just confusion on your part.

Your post above is just a further demonstration of a lack of facts, or, more possibly, an evil heart? You see, NOTHING in masonry promises salvation. What masonry DOES do, however, is require that its members live an upright and moral life, striving to remove from our lives any imperfections (hence the reference ot the imperfect ashlar and the common gavel, which is used to REMOVE those imperfections)... no one is perfect, but g-d asks, no, demands that we live according to His laws.

We fail in that, as all men do, but we strive to be better men. Service and charity are called for as part of being good men, and are not conditions of salvation, but a good man follows g-d's commands, or are you one of THOSE that feel that since you are forgiven, you need do nothing else, and are content to sit back and do nothing, confident of the end?

I feel that salvation is granted, but that does not remove the onus from GOOD MEN to serve their fellows, which is what masonry does.

To slander these good men with ignorance seems to me to be the HEIGHT or arrogance, and to call me or my brothers arrogant for pointing out your errors seems... well, stupid.

But really, thanks for playing. I hope this helps.

Oh, and I hear the bridge is done so you can go back home now...



posted on Aug, 16 2004 @ 12:41 PM
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I'm no Secret Societies Forum groupie, but I check in once in a while and see an inherent problem rendering the never ending argument kind of moot...that being the "secret" part.

So while one group posts wild conspiracy theories and points really insulting fingers actually naming other posters they deem as perfect examples of what's wrong with Freemasonry. :shk:

Another group posts "how great we are threads" with the implication being...if only you knew. :shk:

So from the perspective of this casual outside observer, while I don't happen to like Detective Perez's methods here (as I alluded), I'm no fonder of the nanny nanny boo boo taunts of Freemasons: Liberty, Equality and Tolerance where anti-masonites are supposedly debunked by showing just how influential Masons really are.

Follow me? That's kind of the entire anti-mason argument isn't it? Too much influence?

I actually like the people in that thread I posted, but you have to realize all the self congratulatory brotherly back slapping just makes anti-masons madder (as DP is expressing here).

Maybe you do know that. Thus the cycle continues. I hope somebody's having fun.

But my greater point being, there is no common ground for even having the discussion.

Assertion: You have secrets so you're bad.
Rebuttal: If I could tell you the secrets, you'd see were not bad. But I can't tell you, so just trust me on this.

Can I start a third group and just say you're all full of it?
Kidding. No offense.



posted on Aug, 16 2004 @ 12:49 PM
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posted on 24-5-2003 at 07:46 PM quote

Be nice to Freemasons week

I don't mind what HKoT has to say about Freemasonry and American history. There is no doubt that it has had very influential effects in the 'refining of men' in politics and commerce. People's passions about the conspiratorial elements in Freemasonry are nowhere near as hot as in the UK, where Masons are now being actively discriminated against in many public organisations (including miltary personnel and police).

In my corner of the world Freemasonry is more of a 'mafia of mediocrity'. largely still old men who returned from WW2 and needed a place to socialise and drink in the age when pubs closed at 6.00pm. Not much by way of leadership skill or real knowledge of how to make a lasting impact on the community.

I would say to .... who started this thread, that the people who get disappointed from their affiliation with Freemasonry are:

(1) those who get into it out of curiosity
(2) those who get into it expecting some advancement or preferment in life as a result.

Instead, think through your core philosophies of life and see if there is any compatibility with what's expressed in the public literature put out by the Grand Lodge in your State or region
www.abovetopsecret.com...


There is alot one the subject of Masons on this Site. I would search the subject out then make up your mind.



posted on Aug, 16 2004 @ 01:04 PM
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Originally posted by RANT
I'm no Secret Societies Forum groupie, but I check in once in a while and see an inherent problem rendering the never ending argument kind of moot...that being the "secret" part.

Assertion: You have secrets so you're bad.
Rebuttal: If I could tell you the secrets, you'd see were not bad. But I can't tell you, so just trust me on this.

Can I start a third group and just say you're all full of it?
Kidding. No offense.


Well, I understand your point, but I have been reading (and participating) in these threads for some time, and what you contend has never actually been written OR inferred by any of us.. in fact, I think we have been quite open. No one has actually asked what the secrets of freemasonry are, nor have we indicated in any answer that we cannot answer due to secrecy, so I must admit to a tad bit of confusion here...

We have responded to every post with facts, which the few, DP, Necros, NH have failed to do...

Can you help me with maybe an example of what you are referencing?



posted on Aug, 16 2004 @ 01:16 PM
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Originally posted by theron dunn
Can you help me with maybe an example of what you are referencing?


Probably not. Mainly because I don't want to look.


It's entirely possible I misread the situation as I often do, so again no offense. But if everyone is openly telling secrets in this forum as you suggest, I'm truly shocked...and a little disappointed.



posted on Aug, 16 2004 @ 01:24 PM
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Well, to be perfectly honest (a state I strive for) no one has discussed the secrets of Freemasonry... the ranting (sorry) has been from underinformed and ignorant souls, mostly, that hate masonry because they hate masonry...

So few have real objections, and those that have real objections, in their own minds, rarely understand the objections they are raising, so a presentation of facts is usually sufficient.

There are so few secrets in masonry, grips, words, signs, you know the drill, what we call methods of recgonition. The rest is not so secret, although we do not invite the public into our meetings... but then, neither does General Electic or GM...



posted on Aug, 16 2004 @ 01:36 PM
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Originally posted by theron dunn
There are so few secrets in masonry, grips, words, signs, you know the drill, what we call methods of recgonition.


I want to express my enourously respectful disagreement with Theron on this one. First, I should say that most Masons will disagree with me on this, but I feel that we have an obligation to keep secret not only the modes of recognition, but also the content of the ritual (although an abstract of what goes on is not so bad). Here's why: I obligated myself not to reveal the "secrets or mysteries" of the degrees. Secrets, OK, maybe that means the modes of recognition. But Mysteries, to me, comes from the word mystes, and is being used medievally, the same way the word "mystery" in "mystery play," is used -- to denote an initiatic "play." For this reason, I don't feel that any element of any degree work should be publicly discussed.

I believe this is a good idea also for practical reasons -- a candidate who knows the rituals before he gets the degrees will not be impacted as much, and will not be (for lack of a better word) so "spiritually altered," as one for whom the degrees are a surprise. I feel it does violence to the candidate's experience to cynically remove from them the newness of the expierience, simply because we wish to be approved of by people like Detective Perez.

I feel the same way about the "harmless Masons" argument. Masonry is a real, vibrant, living force. It is harmless because its intent is good, not because it is weak and impotent. To claim that we're all just a bunch of old men (and old men are just as powerful as anyone, mind) without teeth or ambitions is an insult -- instead, I would emphasise that we are harmless because we hold ourselves to the highest moral standards.

[edit on 16-8-2004 by AlexKennedy]




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