Dear Brother's and Sister's in Christ!

Why is it when people question christianity, they are told they hate christians? Even if we mock it, it doesn't mean we hate anyone. I just don't get it. I have all kinds of christian friends. If we met in person, we would get along, I guarantee it.

People make fun of me at work all the time, and I return the favor. No one is hating on anyone. One of these days, I fear we "mockers" will be labeled as terrorists or something similar with the kind of attitude that is displayed toward us unbelievers in this thread.

No one is hating on you guys. Maybe we don't agree with your beliefs, but again we DON'T HATE YOU.

Originally posted by MamaJ

The Christians message.... "Believe in Jesus, do not go to hell my friend....I love you and so does Jesus".

The Atheist's message...."You are stupid ....go to hell I dont care where we spend eternity because there isn't one".

"Believe in Jesus", simple as that? Believe in Santa. Believe in Bigfoot. It's really not that simple.

I love you too Sugar Britches, and I don't need a god to in order to do so.

The atheist's message is "you are stupid, go to hell....etc.?" Sure, some atheists will call you stupid. Some christians will call me stupid. I used to attend a church where the pastor spoke about agnostic people and called them ignorant. But generally, all being an atheist means is that you don't believe gods exist. Now, anything more than that it is just an individual's independent perception.

I'll be honest, I would love to have a life after this one, but I see no reason to believe there is one. I'm not going to invest in a belief system that touts an afterlife just because it gives me some kind of hope and comfort, not knowing for sure whether or not it's true.

I want to believe in the most true things possible, and the least amount of false things as possible. I care about what I believe in.

Originally posted by bogomil
reply to post by RealTruthSeeker

 

You wrote:

["So I guess you don't want egalitarian, secular, liberal democracy to be the supreme message?"]

Sure I do. Except that it's a for-the-duration solution, until we find something even better.

Quote: ["Do you really expect the world to drop all of their belief systems and moral values and jump on board with what your idea of the world should be?"]

Apart from that this already IS happening, based on consensus choices of mankind. And what you probably would learn, if you acquainted yourself with the principles of egalitarian, secular, liberal democracy is, that e.s.l. democracy is an umbrella situation for ALL elitist competitors (and the general, disinterested population), not siding for or against any group (which ofcourse doesn't prevent missionaries from craving privileges).

But don't mistake the situation. This is not a wishy-washy toothless system. Transgressing the limits of freedom and obligation will bring you into trouble.

Quote: ["The only way that could ever happen is if it was done through force by the governments,"]

We have a voting percentage of app. 80 here. Regular church-going is app 5% of the population. Our political christian party will probably be out of the parliament next time. Does that in any way suggest something to you?

Quote: ["and looks like your on the payroll because you do nothing but go around trying to debunk Christ"]

And your solution is......maybe that my old-age pension is stopped until I promise never to oppose christian missioning again. Or do you have something even more totalitarian in mind?

Quote: ["all for the sake of trying to convert Christians into your egalitarian, secular, liberal democracy cult. Good luck with that."]

You can put it like that, yes.

edit on 29-7-2011 by bogomil because: addition

e·gal·i·tar·i·an

adjective /iˌgaləˈterēən/ 

Of, relating to, or believing in the principle that all people are equal and deserve equal rights and opportunities.

Do you really follow this? Or does this definition apply all people except those who are Christian?

secular

(of clergy) Not subject to or bound by religious rule; not belonging to or living in a monastic or other order.

So what's your plan on how to get the other countries around the world who rule by religion to convert to such an idea? The guillotine.

liberal democracy

Liberal democracy is a form of representative democracy where elected representatives that hold the decision power are moderated by a constitution that emphasizes protecting individual liberties and the rights of minorities in society, such as freedom of speech and assembly, freedom of religion, the right to private property and privacy, as well as equality before the law and due process under the rule of law, and many more.

Now I guess you accept all of these freedoms expect the freedom of religion.

If you claim that's what you stand for then are you making a good impression by bashing Christianity. You should be fired for false advertising. It's clear to me that you are just one big contradiction within yourself. You don't even follow the system you are promoting .

Wise up old man, you still have time to get it right.

reply to post by RealTruthSeeker


You wrote:

["e·gal·i·tar·i·an

adjective /iˌgaləˈterēən/ 

Of, relating to, or believing in the principle that all people are equal and deserve equal rights and opportunities.

Do you really follow this? Or does this definition apply all people except those who are Christian?"]

In a societal context I follow it strictly. As a private person, there are people I like and people I dislike. But they still have egalitarian rights, which ofcourse also include christians, some of whom I like and some I dislike.

Quote: ["secular

(of clergy) Not subject to or bound by religious rule; not belonging to or living in a monastic or other order.

So what's your plan on how to get the other countries around the world who rule by religion to convert to such an idea?......"]

I count upon the obvious advantages of e.s.l. democracy to promote itself.

Qoute continued: ["The guillotine."]

The guillotine is more in the style of invasive elitism. Should e.g. some variety of the militant inquisition turn up here, they would more likely get some of the small red pills, which make you happy and sleepy and a ward-place, where they could rethink the situation towards a non-violence attitude.

We can't have people going around and torch other people "for their own good".

Quote: [" liberal democracy

Liberal democracy is a form of representative democracy where elected representatives that hold the decision power are moderated by a constitution that emphasizes protecting individual liberties and the rights of minorities in society, such as freedom of speech and assembly, freedom of religion, the right to private property and privacy, as well as equality before the law and due process under the rule of law, and many more.

Now I guess you accept all of these freedoms expect the freedom of religion."]

Why would you believe that freedom of religion should be an exception? Have I suggested that?

Quote: [" If you claim that's what you stand for then are you making a good impression by bashing Christianity."]

Finally you got back to OP and its persecution-gambit. I'm not bashing christianity, I'm opposing its missionary factions. You and other preaching-minded christians are NOT representatives of all christianty, even if you sometimes pretend to be.

Quote: ["You should be fired for false advertising."]

I'm not appointed by anyone, so it would be hard to fire me.

Quote: ["It's clear to me that you are just one big contradiction within yourself."]

Once again. Please abstain from pop-psychology and character-analyses. It's topic irrelevant.

Quote: ["You don't even follow the system you are promoting"]

Well, I do vote, pay my taxes and bills, follows laws and am generally considered reliable, though somewhat weird. My alleged shortcomings would thus be, that I oppose ideological fascism in general, which actually is a kind of virtue in democracy.

Quote: [" Wise up old man, you still have time to get it right."]

Thank you, young man. But I am right where I am and where I want to be.

Originally posted by undead trev
I'm afraid I take a rather dark view of the heart of Christianity. Based on a lie it cannot help but be regressive and struggle to discover authenticity. For the majority of believers it offers a fantasy, an easy theology that excuses them from making any real effort at discovering the truth. At its worst it is a dangerous doctrine that seriously misleads and deludes its followers, taking them across the chasm into group psychosis.

That's like the atheist "best hits" right there First of all, your claim that Christianity is based on a lie is just your opinion, and it's an opinion that is not even shared by many atheists out there. Many atheists acknowledge that Jesus existed, they obviously don't believe he was/ is God but it's quite obvious that Christianity is not based on a lie. Second, trying to lump all Christians into a single group of fantasy dreamers who make no effort at "discovering the truth" is just plain silly. Surely you're not so uninformed as to believe that no Christian has ever bothered to seek the truth. The vast majority of Christians started out as atheists and agnostics. It's a search for the truth that leads most to belief. Certainly some Christians do depend on the escapism element, they want badly to escape this earthly life and are hoping for something better in the next life. But you might be surprised to know that the vast majority of Christians do not "depend" on that, in fact they are quite scared of it. Most Christians cling to life and are quite scared of death and what may happen after death. Most churches do not even teach prophecy because of people's widespread fear of it. As for your last comment about "dangerous doctrine" that "misleads" and "deludes" people, mainstream religion certainly does that. Mainstream religion does not equal God. You can jump up and down and scream about religion all day, but that has zero impact on whether or not God exists, does it.

Originally posted by undead trev
A raped, unengaged virgin must marry her rapist and they can never divorce Deuteronomy 22:28-29
Hmmm not my kind of god. But of course your God says this if the bible is truth, and so I can only think that you
are good with this.

I've said it before and no doubt will have to say it many more times- people should not let their opinions on the Bible interfere with their search for the truth. Are you familiar with the Ontological Argument? The Bible is not required for belief in God. By the Ontological definition God is that "which nothing greater can be conceived". If you feel a Bible passage like the one you quote above indicates a god that has substandard morals, then what does that tell you? Your implication is that it tells you there is no God when in fact the logical conclusion is that the passage in question does not represent God's will! The Bible was written by men, sure there are many that argue that it was God-breathed (IE, that God personally wrote it using men as his "pens") but personally I believe the writers let their own biases creep into the writing and that's why we have passages about the proper procedures to deal with slaves, not eating shellfish and such. And it's also why some books/ writings are in the Bible and some are not, that too was determined by men rather than God.

Originally posted by undead trev
Take for instance how Biblicists approach the old testament. They leap in and out of the old law like a porpoise in a ship’s wake. If you like it quote it, if you don't like it, hmmm don't quote it. aren’t the ten commandments part of the old law? I take it you understand what I am saying.

Of course I understand, but what does human religious hypocrisy have to do with the existence of God? God is well above all of this, and you have to look above it all to see Him.

And one of life's great mysteries is why among people who seek the truth some find God and others don't. Personally I feel that with all the evidence out there, that if one seriously pursues it without bias there is no other conclusion than to believe in God. Now determining His nature is a whole other matter, we do not have sufficient information and evidence for that at all. I suspect He's nothing like any of us imagine. Some people pursue this and still don't believe, and if that's where they end up then so be it, we have to agree to disagree. But my one hope is that no matter which side of the fence people are on, that they do thoroughly investigate and seek the truth and follow their hearts, and not just sit on one side or the other through anger or hatred or bias or upbringing.

Originally posted by Hydroman
Why is it when people question christianity, they are told they hate christians? Even if we mock it, it doesn't mean we hate anyone. I just don't get it. I have all kinds of christian friends. If we met in person, we would get along, I guarantee it.

You are quite right. People say things in email and on the Internet that they would never say in person. Atheists think that all Christians rove the streets thumping people over the heads with Bibles and Christians think that all atheists are covered with piercings and go around biting the heads off of bats in public. Most of us would be very surprised indeed if we met and talked to each other

Originally posted by SuperiorEd
reply to post by Cor Leonis

 

The most important words on ATS. Thank you for the thread. As others have pointed out clearly, the world hates Christians. In the US, Christians are still free for now. Other than the obvious bias against standing for virtue and truth, we are free to express our views and practice our faith. Around the world Christians are being restricted by tyrannical law, having their churches burned to the ground, having their homes destroyed and being thrown in prison for reading scripture together.

Do any of you really think you would be able to express yourself freely on ATS about any subject if Christians are restricted from expressing themselves freely in America? Think again. History shows that persecution first starts with the church and then everyone is restricted for thought of any kind. Tyranny stands against truth no matter where you find it. Christianity stands for honor, freedom, liberty and justice for all...not just the few who rule. If you stand for the values we were founded on, you stand for the truth every Christian embraces.

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edit on 29-7-2011 by SuperiorEd because: (no reason given)

In a country whose motto is "In God we trust..."

Originally posted by Hydroman
I'll be honest, I would love to have a life after this one, but I see no reason to believe there is one.

Ironic. You are an atheist who doesn't believe in an afterlife but wants one, and I am a Christian who believes in an afterlife but doesn't want one I'm soooo tired, I'm tired of working every day to barely make ends meet, I'm tired of all the responsibilities of life, I'm tired of fixing everyone else's problems, I'm just bone-weary of it all. The thought of eternal rest at death is actually pretty enticing.

Originally posted by Hydroman
I'm not going to invest in a belief system that touts an afterlife just because it gives me some kind of hope and comfort, not knowing for sure whether or not it's true.

And you shouldn't, that's referred to as Pascal's Wager and in my opinion it is not a legitimate reason to come to faith.

reply to post by trisvonbis


Why are you insulting this person, for no reason? Could you maybe have ignored it? I think that grammatical mistakes can happen to anyone. I'm sure you've made some from time to time. I doubt you'd appreciate someone deflecting a topic you find important and worthy of respect....

Originally posted by undead trev
You seem to have this thing about the world hating you, I for one don't hate you but do feel sorry for you.

I think it is truly sad that you refuse the truth about christianity. Please try and look into yourself and the lies you are spreading. False hope is just so very sad. I am sure I am probably wasting my thoughts on you and this sillyness.

Some of the worst and most disgusting crimes to humanity have been perpetrated by those who claim to be lovers of Jesus as you name him.

Christianity is surely for the weak of mind.

Hater.

To all my fellow members of ATS I try my best to love you all regardless of your faith or lack thereof. My belief in Christ as I understand Him; the Son of God, has brought immeasurable satisfaction to my life. It helped me understand that human beings have much more in common with each other than differences.

I have come to understand that earth is the ultimate proving grounds. We are in a constant state of siege and under attack by a force that is much more powerful than any human being.

Nevertheless, we may find joy everywhere we look if we so choose in spite of the fact that we are surrounded by evil acts and evil doers.

Ultimately it was the realization that under the influence of Jesus Christ, as I have come to know him, i have the power to defeat every weapon that is cast at me on this proving ground.

For the record, as a Christian;
1. I have never knowingly harmed another person in the name of my faith.
2. I see no problem with the idea that the earth was created 5 billion years ago.
3. I see no reason why there can be no life outside of earth.

Have a great day!

This video is interesting, but there is a third perspective to consider that unifies the paradox of the question. The simple truth is this: You must be born again. There is no choice. Death is never permanent. When Satan got together with God in Job ch. 2, we read these words. Remember here that Satan killed Job's children.

3 Then the LORD said to Satan, “Have you considered my servant Job? There is no one on earth like him; he is blameless and upright, a man who fears God and shuns evil. And he still maintains his integrity, though you incited me against him to ruin him without any reason.”

4 “Skin for skin!” Satan replied.

Skin for skin is spoken by a true snake. One skin for another. In other words, the children will come back in another body. For God, goodness is a process over many thousands of years. We have been here before and will be here again. In the 1000 years reign of Christ on the earth, there will be an extended time of peace where men will see Christ face to face. Education and truth will be the central component of this time of culminating love. Philippians 1:3 I thank my God every time I remember you. 4 In all my prayers for all of you, I always pray with joy 5 because of your partnership in the gospel from the first day until now, 6 being confident of this, that he who began a good work in you will carry it on to completion until the day of Christ Jesus.

Christ is the first Adam and the last. He went through the same trials here on earth as we have gone through.

1 Corinthians 15:22
For as in Adam all die, so in Christ all will be made alive.
1 Corinthians 15:21-23 (in Context) 1 Corinthians 15 (Whole Chapter)

1 Corinthians 15:45
So it is written: “The first man Adam became a living being” ; the last Adam, a life-giving spirit.
1 Corinthians 15:44-46 (in Context) 1 Corinthians 15 (Whole Chapter)

In light of truth, trying to portray God as evil or somehow unloving is to miss the long-suffering nature of His work with us to develop sentience. Love is the key to what He teaches. All lesson, not matter how difficult at the time, are there to edify this work in our lives. Some will hold out to the end and curse God. This in no way changes God or His love for us.

Romans 5:12
[ Death Through Adam, Life Through Christ ] Therefore, just as sin entered the world through one man, and death through sin, and in this way death came to all people, because all sinned—
Romans 5:11-13 (in Context) Romans 5 (Whole Chapter)

Romans 5:14
Nevertheless, death reigned from the time of Adam to the time of Moses, even over those who did not sin by breaking a command, as did Adam, who is a pattern of the one to come.

Originally posted by goldentorch

Originally posted by bogomil
reply to post by SuperiorEd

 

You wrote:

["Christianity stands for honor, freedom, liberty and justice for all...not just the few who rule."]

Pity this hasn't been obvious, when some of the christianities have been in power.

Quote: ["In the US, Christians are still free for now."]

But then US isn't the cultural center of the world; there are commies, jihadists, neo-nazis, probably a few hidden black Kali-thuggees etc out there also (to take some of the more unpleasant examples), ....as well as a lot of decent people who just want to get along with their lives, without being involved in the powerfights between self-appointed elitists.

Quote: ["Around the world Christians are being restricted by tyrannical law, having their churches burned to the ground, having their homes destroyed and being thrown in prison for reading scripture together."]

So YOUR elitist crusade is 'righteous', because you're persecuted somewhere. There's a new-fangled political invention called egalitarian, secular, liberal democracy, where you can benefit from an advanced degree of personal freedom. DO try it.

Take a look at the character of Jesus. THAT'S where your focus on true divinity should be. That's the kind of character we should all try to represent. What it boils down to is whether or not you will believe The Creator has manifested himself through a human being and showed us the divine representation of what a fulfilling, loving human life looks like. Quoted from www.middletree.net by [email protected].:

"Romans 5:8
"But God demonstrates His own love toward us, in that while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us."

The verse above makes a direct association between three things:

(1) God’s love for us
(2) Christ died for us
(3) our sinful state while He died for us

The phrase "unconditional love" has become so common, especially in Christian environments, that is may be necessary to go back and evaluate just what it means. If we can get, I mean really get, what it means to be unconditionally loved by God, we will find peace, joy and freedom like we’ve never imagined. One of the enemy’s most effective plans is to keep us from this, so that we will be too busy looking over our shoulder waiting for lightning to strike us for our latest failure that we won’t have our eyes on the One who loves us."

The goal is for you to get to know GOD better, not the next Christian sinner. It takes a personal relationship with Him to understand how your whole perspective on the purpose of our lives. While there are still sinners (Christian or not) there is still some good in the world. I believe anyone who gives of themselves out of love (true love and not to boast or gain further popularity) is of God.

John 15:12-13
12 This is my commandment, That ye love one another, as I have loved you. 13 Greater love hath no man than this, that a man lay down his life for his friends.

Jesus laid His life down for us.

reply to post by Mantha



Well said. If Christ died for even me, all of us have hope. We are all in this boat of the fallen. Each of us are so undeserving of God's Grace for us. But God demonstrates his own love for us in this: While we were still sinners, Christ died for us. Romans 5:8

reply to post by Hydroman


Well, I am curious...why is it that you enter a thread that your heart is not in?

Just a reminder, in the bible it says:


"Mark 6:11
King James Version (KJV)
11And whosoever shall not receive you, nor hear you, when ye depart thence, shake off the dust under your feet for a testimony against them. Verily I say unto you, It shall be more tolerable for Sodom and Gomorrha in the day of judgment, than for that city."

If someone is not willing to accept the word of God, then dust your feet off. There's certainly no point in banging their heads into the wall of Christianity. Certainly, I use the knowledge I have from the bible to address any misconceptions, but if you chose not to believe it, that's ultimately your heart's decision. A true loving Christian example would pray for those people, but move on--it's in God's hands anyway.

Originally posted by SuperiorEd
reply to post by Mantha

 

Well said. If Christ died for even me, all of us have hope. We are all in this boat of the fallen. Each of us are so undeserving of God's Grace for us. But God demonstrates his own love for us in this: While we were still sinners, Christ died for us. Romans 5:8

Exactly!! And God's message is more prominent now than ever (obviously) and that is FORGIVENESS. We should not be hateful to those who choose not to see God. Only God knows.

reply to post by Mantha


You wrote:

["Take a look at the character of Jesus."]

Already did. Pity that character was hijacked by the pauline gang. Could possibly have been a nice religion otherwise.

Quote: ["THAT'S where your focus on true divinity should be. That's the kind of character we should all try to represent."]

Personally I don't need any religious role-models. Should I loose my ability to think clearly and want religion, I believe, I would choose some Jain holy man.


I'll skip the following undiluted preaching and go to

Quote: [" The goal is for you to get to know GOD better, not the next Christian sinner."]

It appears to get across very badly: This is not MY goal. It's a goal pushy christians impose on me. Unasked for and a kind of white noise.

Quote: [" It takes a personal relationship with Him to understand how your whole perspective on the purpose of our lives."]

Unfortunately I can't say this in a polite way: Looking at christian missionaries 'perspectives' inspires me intensively to stay with own perspective on christianity. I hope never to become like a christian missionary..

Quote: ["While there are still sinners (Christian or not) there is still some good in the world."]

Sinners or not, I'm not gloomy about the world. My glass is usually 'half filled'.

Quote: ["Jesus laid His life down for us."]

It's just that I consider 'original sin' as the most absurd of all religious doctrines', I've ever met. So it doesn't really go home with me with all the debt-stuff.

reply to post by bogomil


There is much opposition in this world--Christian or not, we are sinners and hate is among us. If someone wants to be more Christ-like in their heart, and show love freely to other people, why are you riduculing that?

Originally posted by bogomil
My alleged shortcomings would thus be, that I oppose ideological fascism in general, which actually is a kind of virtue in democracy.

Doesn't freedom of religion also include freedom of speech? Sounds like your saying it's ok to be religious, but you can't talk about it or share with others .

So in short you just want all Christians to shut up so you and your buddies can rule the world. No need to rush the issue, after all, the saints (Christians) will be delivered in to the hands of the Beast for times, time and half a time. I guess your just getting the boys ready .

Originally posted by Mantha
reply to post by bogomil

 

There is much opposition in this world--Christian or not, we are sinners and hate is among us. If someone wants to be more Christ-like in their heart, and show love freely to other people, why are you riduculing that?

edit on 29-7-2011 by Mantha because: (no reason given)

Because parts of christianity are amongst the top-five most abominable fascist ideologies mankind knows of.

And following the old tradition of pushing and pushing, I have the strong impression, that old christian habits die hard. It's STILL about control, dominance and monopoly, and 'the goal justifies the means'.

It doesn't matter how sugar-coated it's presented, the traditional christian methods shine through.

Originally posted by bogomil

Originally posted by MamaJ
reply to post by bogomil

 

See you still do not get it. If everyone agrees with me??? Do you not read and understand before you take a sentence and compile a judgment? I never SAID that, my friend. I am saying to express love and do not be a part of the problem in regards to a hateful society who wants nothing more than to further separate and divide based on difference.

LOVE is the message I am conveying....Research the Bible and everything in between to come up with your own conclusion... if you want. I am not here to "save" you. The only one that can do that is YOU. I am not bashing you for your non belief...dont ridicule others because they are different.

It is a choice that everyone is entitled to.

I actually got it the first time.

If we 'love' on YOUR CONDITIONS, which include referring to the bible as an authority, it will be just fine.

I will, in the same invasive non-invasion spirit suggest, that you learn more about the principles of egalitarian, secular, liberal democracy; which admittedly isn't brimming over with your-style 'love', but on the other hand does function in its balanced acceptance between competing elitist groups.

Well, think what you want about worldly organizations...Christians should know that all man is fallen. That being said, there is not one perfect being on this planet. Jesus being our only true exception and model. The bible was intended to spread love and give a standard of living that would ease life's troubles for all humankind. Take what you want out of it, but I don't find anything elitest about it, despite what man has done to it, how he has interpretted it, or how he has abused it, etc. God is love, God is just. God is merciful. That is the character I've come to know. That is the message that is to be spread.