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How not raising the debt ceiling will save America..

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posted on Jul, 28 2011 @ 04:29 PM
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Originally posted by sligtlyskeptical
And even if that wasn't true do you really think it is wise to just abandon the future generation of leaders?


Absolutely.

If it means that the education they would receive was from the very people that are screwing up this nation. We certainly do not need to be teaching kids how to screw things up. Now, if the schools were teaching the right way to do things then that is another story. If people are being taught from the likes of IMF, BoA or Chase, then by all means, the education would be useless as far as the rest of the nation is concerned, especially the economy.

Not to mention, Gen Y is kind of screwed up as it is. There are quite a few Gen Y's out there that could not wipe their own butt without mommy and daddy.
edit on 28-7-2011 by Skewed because: (no reason given)




posted on Jul, 28 2011 @ 08:52 PM
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Originally posted by sligtlyskeptical

Originally posted by Fromabove

Originally posted by mr10k
reply to post by Fromabove
 


Will scholarships stop? Can I stop focusing on college now?


Yes... I guess if you can't afford to go to college I shouldn't be forced to send you there. Oh well, there are other things you can do besides going to college for free.


You are an ass. Most scholarships do not come from taxpayer and the ones that do cover a small % of the cost of attending college. And even if that wasn't true do you really think it is wise to just abandon the future generation of leaders?



I wasn't meaning to be an ass, but to say, we should not expect the government to do everything for us. An education is not a right but a privilege. If the money for grants and loans are there, good, but if it's not, we need to find something else to do, this is what I meant to say. I went to college on government loans, but I managed to pay them back, with interest. But if I couldn't have gotten it, I would have had to get by some other way. Right now, we just can't afford to spend money we don't have. First we have to pay the bills we have.



posted on Jul, 28 2011 @ 08:58 PM
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Originally posted by spyder550
reply to post by Fromabove
 


I'll bet you dont have a passport -- you have that cheeto-dust moms basement mentality.



Ok.. I find that statement amusing.



posted on Jul, 29 2011 @ 03:38 AM
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I can't believe people don't understand that by not raising it now, they will be FORCED to raise it in the future anyway because of crushing interest payments that just accumulate and increase. None of the proposed cuts are enough to allow the government not to raise it now, and how could they, you won't fix this deficit only through cuts, the numbers prove that revenue increases are required too. By not raising it, interest payments will go to ridiculous levels and the economy will be doomed.

That's why it's 100% clear that they'll raise it eventually. They'll pretend it took a long time to "decide", but in the end, they KNOW they'll raise it...because they don't really have a choice.



posted on Jul, 29 2011 @ 10:53 AM
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Originally posted by beezzer

Originally posted by sligtlyskeptical
. . . And even if that wasn't true do you really think it is wise to just abandon the future generation of leaders?


Have you seen the latest crop of "future leaders"?
The largest darned group of whiners, entilement babies, and takers that I've ever seen!

Just because a person goes to college does NOT give them the inate ability to lead.


That doesn't mean that many in college do not have the ability to lead. Not sure where you get your ideas on young people, but there are quite a few that have their crap together. Just like the general population, most are idiots, but there are gems in the group.



posted on Jul, 29 2011 @ 10:54 AM
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reply to post by MrXYZ
 


If you increase taxes you kill the economy. If you raise the debt limit to new and uncharted heights you kill the economy. But if you cut spending and pay off the debt you already have, and keep taxes low, you will cause stability in the economy and growth will result.

The best thing is for the debt ceiling to not be raised one dime. The only thing that will happen is that all those who are receiving free money now will have to go make some on their own. Wasteful government funding of useless programs will cease. It'll be great. Big unions and liberal community organization will be cut off. This is the best I or anyone could ever hope for. And what's more. Obamacare will wither and die before it has the chance to take root.

My vote is for no increase in the debt ceiling.



posted on Jul, 29 2011 @ 12:01 PM
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reply to post by Fromabove
 


Not raising it is like shooting the economy, then kicking it when it's down, and finally, pissing on it. Mark my words, they will raise it one way or the other (meaning: they might do it in 2 stages so it looks less drastic), but they KNOW that if they don't raise it, it's the end of the US economy as we know it.

Rating agencies would IMMEDIATELY drop its rating, interest rates would rise to ridiculous levels...and guess what, that hinders investment and economic growth way way way way more than fixing corporate tax loop holes for example. I mean, how on earth would it hurt the economy if we forced Exxon to pay taxes? Oil prices never dropped in the medium/long term when we gave them benefits, they continue to ship jobs off-shore (and fire more ppl in the states), and rake in BILLIONS in profits. It's not as if they can't afford to pay taxes like the rest of us.

And pretending social security needs to be cut because it harms the deficit is NONSENSE!! The program's self funding, and will continue to be self-funding until 2040. Having SS is NOT responsible for the deficit, no matter how hard the right is trying to convince you of it...all you have to do is check out the budget numbers to realize it got a HUGE surplus.

Your suggesting that because we give handouts to large corporations like Exxon, the people who ALREADY PAID INTO SS should now lose that money...so we can ensure Exxon makes more profits and continues to ship jobs offshore...great plan


Either way, just cutting costs won't fix the budget deficit anyway...raising certain taxes IS necessary...and anyone who ever studied proper economics knows that. Suggesting otherwise is disingenuous!!

Some politicians understand that...Ron Paul for example does...

Here's what others think: LINK

If you seriously believe not raising it is even an option, let alone a good thing, you are 100% clueless when it comes to economics...

...however...

...like I said before, I'm not actually in favor of keeping on raising that debt limit. Long term, that will lead to disaster. But not raising it now would kill the economy entirely and induce a second recession.

What needs to happen is them raising it now, then reviewing every single department INCLUDING defence and improving efficiency while making sure we aren't double-tracking by being too bureaucratic. At the same time, we need to increase revenues completely removing the Bush tax cuts for the richest people in the nation (who now use that additional money for more lucrative investments abroad anyway) and fixing ALL corporate tax loop holes. We also have to stop giving tax incentives to industries that don't need it, like the oil industry. Only a combination of all that will truly fix the deficit in a sustainable way.

And above all, we need to make sure the cuts don't harm CONSUMER SPENDING, as the economy would currently not be able to cope with a further decrease in consumer spending. If we cut stuff that harms consumer spending, we'll either enter another recession, or just as bad, enter a very long stagnation.
edit on 29-7-2011 by MrXYZ because: (no reason given)



posted on Jul, 29 2011 @ 01:36 PM
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reply to post by MrXYZ
 


You seem to think that jobs just evolve naturally out of demand.
It looks like that, according to Keynesian theory, but realize that that is just a theory, not a fact!
Evidence points to the fact that jobs are created by an intelligent jobs creator.
To function this creator needs 2 things: Untaxed $s and confidence.

To the "kicking the can further down the road" guys: how long do you reckon the road is?



posted on Jul, 29 2011 @ 06:18 PM
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reply to post by debunky
 





To function this creator needs 2 things: Untaxed $s and confidence.


Confidence has nothing to do with it


Jobs are only created if the companies operating NEED more workforce. That's only the case if you stimulate consumer spending, and every fool looking at the stats can see that cutting the WRONG departments will harm consumer spending. It doesn't matter how little taxes companies pay, if consumers can't afford to pay for their goods/services, the economy's essentially dead...which is what we're faced right now.

Let me ask you this: Do you truly believe it's ok that all of us pay taxes while THE most profitable company in the world pays ZERO taxes while firing more and more people at the SAME TIME? If your answer is "yes", you should definitely vote for the tea party



posted on Jul, 29 2011 @ 06:58 PM
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reply to post by beezzer
 

People shouldn't have to rely on themselves in order to have a good existence in what is supposedly a first world nation.


Originally posted by Fromabove

Originally posted by mr10k
reply to post by Fromabove
 


Will scholarships stop? Can I stop focusing on college now?


Yes... I guess if you can't afford to go to college I shouldn't be forced to send you there. Oh well, there are other things you can do besides going to college for free.

Higher education is a fundamental human right. Everyone should be able to attend college for free.



posted on Jul, 29 2011 @ 07:00 PM
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reply to post by Fromabove
 


I should make a new thread.

"How one man's idea can set rules that the world will conform to. But no necessarily within reality"



posted on Jul, 29 2011 @ 07:27 PM
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Originally posted by SG-17 Higher education is a fundamental human right. Everyone should be able to attend college for free.


LOL - this is classic!

Free, sure so who will pay the professors, the electric bills, for the buildings the maintenance etc.? Will we take slaves or hold the professors hostage so you can claim your right to education?

Higher education is not a human right FFS - a human right is something you have by the simple act of existing, like the freedom of thought, or the right to self defense, or to compete for food (note: not the right to food), shelter and clothing.

You have a right to provide those things for yourself or to engage in trade with others who can for skills you posses they do not. However, you do not have a right to demand they be provided for you for nothing in return.

You cannot claim as a right anything that is provided by another.
That is the very reason we have a problem – people think they have a right to the things other people produce or the wealth of another then demand the government take these things by force on their behalf. You know “for the good of the people” or “for the sake of the children” - the two most abused phrases in government are largely a bunch of BS.



posted on Jul, 30 2011 @ 06:37 AM
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reply to post by Golf66
 





Free, sure so who will pay the professors, the electric bills, for the buildings the maintenance etc.? Will we take slaves or hold the professors hostage so you can claim your right to education?


Imo education is a human right, but that doesn't necessarily include college education. But as for who's paying for it, the economy through taxes...simply because the more higher educated people they can use, the more money they will make. And higher educated people also cost the state less because they can take better care of themselves.

Check out the stats:

1) The higher the education level, the higher the salaries (because they bring in more money to the company)
2) The higher the education level, the lower the chance at being unemployed or losing your job.
3) Apparently happiness increases too with education: LINK

Take me for example. I lost my job in real estate at the beginning of 2009. But having a good education allowed me to last 2 years without having to work because my previous job paid so well. I'm now working again, but during the 2 years I didn't, I didn't cost the government a single cent.

That was only possible because of EDUCATION allowing me to score high paying jobs.



posted on Jul, 30 2011 @ 07:06 AM
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The basic premise for me is that they always lie. I believe the debt ceiling debate is a farce. The way I see it, they and their shills are scaremongering about what will happen if the debt ceiling isn't raised - implying that it will be a national catastrophe. Always bearing in mind that they constantly lie and use double speak, and also bearing in mind that scaremongering is always undertaken by them for their own benefit, not that of the people, it seems to me that not raising the debt ceiling will first and foremost be catastrophic for the cabal.

I don't believe a word that comes out of their mouth, but I think the cabal has got itself into trouble and needs unfettered spending to stay 'alive' and to continue its agenda.

I'm prepared to make whatever sacrifice is necessary to finally bring these vermin down. So, I support not raising the debt ceiling and I support Ron Paul's take on this too.



posted on Jul, 30 2011 @ 07:20 AM
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reply to post by wcitizen
 


Not raising it WILL result in a catastrophe. Why?

Interests will rise during a time where the economy is already weak. That's a FACT and not even up for debate because it makes perfect sense that institutions lending money will raise rats if they perceive the borrower to be less credit worthy. If it's more expensive to borrow money, investment activity will be negatively impacted. And again, the economy can't afford that during a time where it's already weak.

No one argues that raising it is a good thing, but given the state of the economy, timing wise, it's now the lesser evil. Of course raising it has to be followed up by 2 things:

1) Cutting costs: This includes defence spending and should be done in departments that don't harm consumer spending or the US's ability to compete in the global economy. Cutting SS for example does harm consumer spending, and would be a bad thing...especially considering it's a not increasing the debt currently.

2) Raising revenues: That means raising taxes, removing unnecessary tax incentives for industries that don't need it (oil!!), and making sure companies in the US can't just use tax loop holes to evade taxes while firing more and more people.

Only a combination of the two will truly fix the deficit issue, one alone (aka only cutting costs) won't fix it...and everyone looking at the amounts involved should realize this.

People need to realize that all parties currently suck:

1) The democrats are just plain weak, it doesn't really matter what they want to do, they don't have the willpower, or confidence to push anything through. In short, they're pretty much useless.

2) The GOP and TP try to convince the people that it's a good thing when their services and benefits are removed, but at the same time, also make sure that their corporate sugar daddies keep their money. The are essentially selling out the American people to corporations...almost like a modern form of slavery. In short, they suck too.

They are all playing Russian roulette with the economy, and not just the US economy, they gamble with the wellbeing of the world's economy because the US has an impact on the world.
edit on 30-7-2011 by MrXYZ because: (no reason given)



posted on Jul, 30 2011 @ 04:59 PM
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reply to post by MrXYZ
 


That was meant to be a joke...
you know...lining up creationism with trickle down economics.
But i am aware that in this place you could think that I was serious.
Sorry...



posted on Jul, 30 2011 @ 05:06 PM
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Originally posted by Fromabove
reply to post by MrXYZ
 


If you increase taxes you kill the economy.


How do you reconcile the fact that taxes were highest at the times of the US greatest economic growth? Corporations that do not want to pay taxes, rich people that do not want to pay taxes got you to argue in favor of THEM not paying taxes. The reality is, when everyone pays a fair share for what they get in return, the economy fares far better.
The Bush Tax cuts have only further proven that cutting taxes on the top only makes things worse. They need to start paying taxes again like the rest of us.



posted on Jul, 31 2011 @ 04:23 AM
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Originally posted by MrXYZ
reply to post by wcitizen
 


Not raising it WILL result in a catastrophe. Why?

Interests will rise during a time where the economy is already weak. That's a FACT and not even up for debate because it makes perfect sense that institutions lending money will raise rats if they perceive the borrower to be less credit worthy. If it's more expensive to borrow money, investment activity will be negatively impacted. And again, the economy can't afford that during a time where it's already weak.

No one argues that raising it is a good thing, but given the state of the economy, timing wise, it's now the lesser evil. Of course raising it has to be followed up by 2 things:

1) Cutting costs: This includes defence spending and should be done in departments that don't harm consumer spending or the US's ability to compete in the global economy. Cutting SS for example does harm consumer spending, and would be a bad thing...especially considering it's a not increasing the debt currently.

2) Raising revenues: That means raising taxes, removing unnecessary tax incentives for industries that don't need it (oil!!), and making sure companies in the US can't just use tax loop holes to evade taxes while firing more and more people.

Only a combination of the two will truly fix the deficit issue, one alone (aka only cutting costs) won't fix it...and everyone looking at the amounts involved should realize this.

People need to realize that all parties currently suck:

1) The democrats are just plain weak, it doesn't really matter what they want to do, they don't have the willpower, or confidence to push anything through. In short, they're pretty much useless.

2) The GOP and TP try to convince the people that it's a good thing when their services and benefits are removed, but at the same time, also make sure that their corporate sugar daddies keep their money. The are essentially selling out the American people to corporations...almost like a modern form of slavery. In short, they suck too.

They are all playing Russian roulette with the economy, and not just the US economy, they gamble with the wellbeing of the world's economy because the US has an impact on the world.
edit on 30-7-2011 by MrXYZ because: (no reason given)


None of us knows anything about what's really going on because everything they put in the public domain is lies, smoke and mirrors and doublespeak.

I see you're under the illusion that people won't lose their services and benefits if the ceiling is raised....I don't agree with you. There's an evil agenda which they are pushing forward as fast as they can, and imo part of that is that people will lose their benefits, services, etc.

This is exactly what they do - pretend there are two opposing sides when in fact it's all a huge pantomime to hide from the public the fact that they already know exactly what the outcome will be, because they've planned it.

There are only two sides - the Oligarchs with their evil plan, and the Public. The rest is just a sham to fool people into believing differently.

From what I've read elsewhere, Obama has already raided pensions, social security funds, etc.... Most of that money will have gone into the accounts of the private banks/corporations, as always, so now they've got to find a way to make the theft 'palatable' to the public.

When any topic dominates the MSM, be sure it is because the Vermin want it to. So now they're creating the problem, and they will then present the solution.....which will be a bit like the 'help' they give to other countries - pillage and exploitation.


edit on 31-7-2011 by wcitizen because: (no reason given)

edit on 31-7-2011 by wcitizen because: (no reason given)



posted on Jul, 31 2011 @ 06:19 AM
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I see this as all a big charade.

The 'debt ceiling' is self imposed and arbitrary. It has been raised 60+ times already without a fuss. The time for this debate on spending was many years ago.

The USA will default. None of the political parties have the gumption to enact the cuts necessary to bring spending in line with likely revenues. Theres no way out. The only option available is to attempt to devalue their way out with repeated QE 3/4/5/6

I dont think this will go down well with the rest of the world.



posted on Jul, 31 2011 @ 08:27 AM
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reply to post by wcitizen
 


You hit the nail on the head, it doesn't matter which party's in power!! That's exactly my point. They are essentially using the social security YOU paid into to afford tax cuts for the top 1% and the companies sponsoring them. And all the while they PRETEND to making "tough choices". Talking about income distribution...it's exactly what I wrote about a while back. Politicians are just doing gladiator games to entertain and distract the stupid public.



No one summarized it as well as George Carlin...RIP


Here's how they divide the people as a distraction:


edit on 31-7-2011 by MrXYZ because: (no reason given)



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