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How not raising the debt ceiling will save America..

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posted on Jul, 28 2011 @ 10:49 AM
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If the US does not increase the debt ceiling with no credible budget for getting rid of it's debt it has a major problem.

If the US does increase the debt ceiling with no credible budget for getting rid of debt it has a major problem.

(In both cases, a budget with no deficit would be acceptable.)

See the similarity?

The debt ceiling is more of a minor issue. It is really similar to the maximum on your credit card. As long as you are paying it down, you can survive. I know that ideally there would be no debt at all, but first things first. Get the cash flow in order and the balance sheet will sort itself out in the long run.




posted on Jul, 28 2011 @ 10:53 AM
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Originally posted by Fromabove
reply to post by kindofsmart
 


All that will happen is that all the special interest free bee handouts will stop, that's all. Old people, and the sick and the military will all get their monthly checks. Don't let them scare you.


no i bet it would be the opposite, just so they can gain more control, theyd rationolize building some 9,000,000,000 million dollar 9/11 monument and then rationiliza not sending social security, if we don't default your social security checks will come, but they'll be worth about 1/4 of what they where the day before



posted on Jul, 28 2011 @ 10:59 AM
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Originally posted by SonOfTheLawOfOne
reply to post by MrXYZ
 


I respectfully disagree with you and your thread (which is not 100% fact based)....

Try this site instead if you want to base a conclusion on real debt facts:

www.justfacts.com...

Raising the debt ceiling is just kicking the can further down the road. It makes zero sense to raise the debt ceiling when they are already talking about the next hike after this one.

When you take lines of credit with a casino, what happens when you have lost all of your winnings? You eventually get cut off or two broken legs... The house always wins! We can NOT keep borrowIng even with taking smaller bets with higher stakes... I think everyone knows where this is all going and most people agree that we should NOT spend another penny.

~Namaste
edit on 28-7-2011 by SonOfTheLawOfOne because: (no reason given)


No one argues that keeping on raising the debt ceiling is a good thing (which is what I mentioned in the other thread), but not raising it now, given the economic situation, would be the death sentence for the US economy.

1) They couldn't afford to borrow anymore cheaply in the future.
2) Interest would just pile up and make sure future generations are even more in debt than they already are.
3) The economy wouldn't be stimulated as spending cuts result in a decrease in consumer spending.
4) Unemployment would rise.

Not raising it is out of the question, and claiming the situation can be fixed through spending cuts alone (as opposed to including tax increases for the top 1% and corporations like Exxon) would fix this mess is CRAZY...beyond crazy in fact



posted on Jul, 28 2011 @ 11:05 AM
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Originally posted by Fromabove
Contrary to popular belief, the world will not end on August 2cd if America does not raise the debt ceiling.


You are correct about that. But it could be the first step of a downward spiral that will lead to the end of this country as we know it. First let me say that raising the ceiling or leaving it as-is won't make a difference, we're headed for disaster either way because as you said, we're living WAY beyond our means as a country. Our current total debt works out to 668,000 dollars per family (source) and it doesn't take a genius to understand that it can never be paid back. OK, that aside, it appears we are on the verge of having our credit rating reduced by one or more of the major credit agencies. If we default then we will DEFINITELY see our rating reduced, if we don't default we will PROBABLY see it reduced anyway. A reduction in our credit rating will cause 3 effects:

- Interest rates will immediately go up (required to entice investors to buy the debt of a country that has less than a AAA rating)

- Confidence will immediately plummet (the world will see we can't resolve our economic problems in a timely manner and will lose faith in us)

- The stock markets will crash (the stock markets are a leading indicator, and the above lack of confidence will lead to the halting of future growth and thus the market outlook will plummet)

Those are all short term. If we can't immediately swing into action, fix the problems and shore confidence back up, the long term effects will be catastrophic. The higher interest rates will shut down our economy. The loss in confidence will at some point lead to a run on our cash reserves to cover people trying to cash in on the debt they hold while it's still worth something. This will lead to the government printing more money to cover the debts- rampant inflation. We are a nation with a consumer-driven economy and it goes without saying that when people get scared they quit spending money. That will drive us into a deep depression. The crisis in confidence will continue to get worse as the cycle continues. When we hit bottom we'll have crazy inflation, a record jobless rate, a government in tatters and a zombie-like population staggering around in stunned silence wondering how it all went wrong.

I don't think people realize how dangerous this situation is. Our government needed to act months ago, and their delay has only made it worse. Continued inaction will lead to certain disaster.



edit on 28-7-2011 by SavedOne because: (no reason given)



posted on Jul, 28 2011 @ 11:06 AM
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Until something is done about the Federal Reserve nothing will work at the end of the day.

However, raising the debt limit only prolongs this issue for another day, cut and dry. Credit card companies do not raise peoples credit limit when they are behind in payments and maxed out, so why should this be any different.

Not raising the debt limit is the medicine we all need. We are so divided that we will not willingly have a majority agreement. So, the only option is to put us in a position that forces us to make a decision that we normally would not want to make, most likely out fear of the unknown. In some ways, it will level the playing field. We have to realize that the bar we are trying live by is too high and must be lowered as the resources are no longer there to support itself, which is why we must take a few steps back and set a new base line until things stabilize. This may also give us the "reset" we so desperately need.

Raising the debt limit is what the Federal Reserve and the banking cartels want to further their endgame. That right there should be reason enough not to raise it. Not raising the debt limit will kind of yank the rug out from under the bankers and take away some of their control.

Either way, until the Federal Reserve is shut down or taken over by the government, the shenanigans will still continue. Although, in my opinion, not raising the debt limit is the worse case scenario, for the banks, not the citizens.People will just need to learn to adapt to the new way of life, it will not be permanent but it will take time to get people back on their feet. Provided people can suck a few things up and push through it, we will survive, we always have and always will. Americans can be quiet and timid, but when things get bad we come out swinging. It just sucks that we let things get so buried and out of control before we get pissed off enough and decide to do something about it. I wish we could see far enough ahead that when things start happening we could nip it in the bud before it even got off the ground.
edit on 28-7-2011 by Skewed because: (no reason given)



posted on Jul, 28 2011 @ 11:11 AM
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Taking on more debt is just entering the death spiral. No way out, just short term benefits to feel like you are under control just hoping something magical will happen and improve the situation, like winning the big lottery.

Be strong, cut spending to match revenues. If you need a consolidation loan, then that might be feasible short term but not if you think you can cut, you MUST cut NOW, not 10 years from now.

A Balanced Budget will show the world that we are strong, in control, and will pay our debt, first full support of the bonds - money borrowed. Tell the businesses that taxing them more is over, a moratorium on all business tax increases and this will bring in foreign money and investment into the USA providing us jobs for people who will pay more taxes. This is a Win-Win scenario for us.



posted on Jul, 28 2011 @ 11:17 AM
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reply to post by chuckk
 





Tell the businesses that taxing them more is over, a moratorium on all business tax increases and this will bring in foreign money and investment into the USA providing us jobs for people who will pay more taxes.


Oh really?

First of all, the US will NEVER be able to take care of this massive deficit only through spending cuts...tax increases are required. Not on the people though, but corporations need to pay their fair share. And no, it won't result in less job growth.

Take Exxon for example, the most profitable company in the world. They paid ZERO taxes the past few years, in a time where people making $30k/yr had to pay their fair share. Politicians sold that to the people pretending this would result in job growth. I suggest you check out how many more people in the US Exxon ended up hiring.

The answer isn't 1000, or 100,000, or 0. The answer is: THEY FIRED MORE PEOPLE!!!

Tax incentives as a means for job growth are a farce! A company's goal is it to produce PROFITS, not to create jobs, and no incentives would ever convince a company to create jobs if it'll cost them profits.

Stop buying into crap like "we need to give the companies tax breaks to stimulate the economy and/or create jobs". It's all hogwash!



posted on Jul, 28 2011 @ 11:17 AM
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The debt ceiling have to be raised AND NOW.

There is NO prolonging of pain if the debt ceiling is raised. But there will be a total END OF PAIN if the debt ceiling is NOT RAISED, for many will suffer and give rise to fatalist mobs whom will seize power and control and then with such vastly improve tech, power and weapons, we all can kiss Earth goodbye this time for real.

The reason why there is no PROLONGING OF PAIN if the debt ceiling is raised, is simply because USA had not run out of mineral and innovative human resource. Debts ultimately have to be paid, and some today presume our kids will bear the brunt of repaying.

But there's far from reality, because as USA still have resources which the world needs, it would fetch financial revenues. And with social spending to groom human capital in education, health care, welfare and investments, it would create an environment of innovation, espacially in tech and science, the twin pillars that had elevated our current civilisations for centuries. And thus, repayments over debts will cease when such revenues are realized, perhaps short enough that our innocent next generations need not pay, along with more rationalized cautious spending on wars, wall st casinos, and NEVER allowing rich elites to live without paying taxes.
edit on 28-7-2011 by SeekerofTruth101 because: (no reason given)



posted on Jul, 28 2011 @ 11:23 AM
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reply to post by MrXYZ
 

Tax the top percentages 100% and it wouldn't be enough.

We need innovation, exploration, creativity, new business, new industry.

Government needs to cut taxes, reduce spending and leave us the heck alone!



posted on Jul, 28 2011 @ 11:27 AM
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Originally posted by beezzer
reply to post by MrXYZ
 

Tax the top percentages 100% and it wouldn't be enough.

We need innovation, exploration, creativity, new business, new industry.

Government needs to cut taxes, reduce spending and leave us the heck alone!



That's simply not true.

Yes, spending needs to be cut, but not if it results in less consumer spending...that would essentially cripple the economy. I agree with the rest (innovation, exploration, etc.), but that all depends largely on education...another area they want to cut.

Only cutting spending, and not raising certain taxes (top 1%, corporations like Exxon, etc.) or even worse, lowering them, wouldn't fix this mess. And offering corporations tax incentives won't help either as they'll just keep on firign people and moving jobs offshore...or cut people's salaries to the point where no one can afford to buy the products/services anymore, how's that for economic growth?



posted on Jul, 28 2011 @ 11:33 AM
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Originally posted by SeekerofTruth101
The debt ceiling have to be raised AND NOW.

There is NO prolonging of pain if the debt ceiling is raised. But there will be a total END OF PAIN if the debt ceiling is NOT RAISED, for many will suffer and give rise to fatalist mobs whom will seize power and control and then with such vastly improve tech, power and weapons, we all can kiss Earth goodbye this time for real.



I disagree. This is the opportunity for the people to take back what is rightfully ours. We have to start taking chunks piece by piece out of the banking cartels, and this would be a way to take a piece from them that they took from us. The only way you would be correct would be if the American people continued to sit on their ass waiting for the government to come save them. This can be turned around and used to our advantage, if we want it to.

Focus on the positive, not the negative.



posted on Jul, 28 2011 @ 11:36 AM
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reply to post by MrXYZ
 

You sound as if you're a firm believer in keynesian economics.

Government does NOT improve the economy. Government just leaches and takes advantage of a prosperous economy.


A supporter of Keynesian economics believes it is the government's job to smooth out the bumps in business cycles. Intervention would come in the form of government spending and tax breaks in order to stimulate the economy, and government spending cuts and tax hikes in good times, in order to curb inflation.

www.investopedia.com...



posted on Jul, 28 2011 @ 11:40 AM
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reply to post by Fromabove
 


I'll bet you dont have a passport -- you have that cheeto-dust moms basement mentality.



posted on Jul, 28 2011 @ 12:28 PM
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Originally posted by SavedOne

Originally posted by Fromabove
Contrary to popular belief, the world will not end on August 2cd if America does not raise the debt ceiling.


If we default then we will DEFINITELY see our rating reduced, if we don't default we will PROBABLY see it reduced anyway. A reduction in our credit rating will cause 3 effects:

- Interest rates will immediately go up (required to entice investors to buy the debt of a country that has less than a AAA rating)

- Confidence will immediately plummet (the world will see we can't resolve our economic problems in a timely manner and will lose faith in us)

- The stock markets will crash (the stock markets are a leading indicator, and the above lack of confidence will lead to the halting of future growth and thus the market outlook will plummet)


edit on 28-7-2011 by SavedOne because: (no reason given)


It is interest rates to the US Government that will go up, so to counter this you do what?...Borrow less, preferable none! The interest rates on the existing Bonds are low, they do not go up but are fixed for their duration.

I do not care what the rest of the World things, we are fixing our our problems. They like us taking on more debt since the rest of the world gets our money, let's stop that. (overseas military bases, IMF, UN, etc)

Who cares about the Stock Market? The Democrats hate all of the rich people with stock so why not let it crash. The companies have the money from the sale of the existing stock so make good use of it. The stock market is just legalized gambling. Money is always available for good investment.



posted on Jul, 28 2011 @ 12:39 PM
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that was hilarious

you run out of money because your spending to much and then you want to raise the amount you spend but you didnt already have enough cash to cover what you already spent and then you wanna raise the limit of it.

dude anyone who wants to raise the debt ceiling is about as smart as a box of rocks



posted on Jul, 28 2011 @ 12:48 PM
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Originally posted by Fromabove

Originally posted by mr10k
reply to post by Fromabove
 


Will scholarships stop? Can I stop focusing on college now?


Yes... I guess if you can't afford to go to college I shouldn't be forced to send you there. Oh well, there are other things you can do besides going to college for free.


You are an ass. Most scholarships do not come from taxpayer and the ones that do cover a small % of the cost of attending college. And even if that wasn't true do you really think it is wise to just abandon the future generation of leaders?



posted on Jul, 28 2011 @ 12:52 PM
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Originally posted by sligtlyskeptical
. . . And even if that wasn't true do you really think it is wise to just abandon the future generation of leaders?


Have you seen the latest crop of "future leaders"?
The largest darned group of whiners, entilement babies, and takers that I've ever seen!

Just because a person goes to college does NOT give them the inate ability to lead.



posted on Jul, 28 2011 @ 12:53 PM
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reply to post by sligtlyskeptical
 


And lets not forget that a population of higher educated people will ALWAYS do better than one that isn't. Having more educated people actually allows the economy to grow.

...which is why India's doing so well at the moment. They have more honor students than the US has students right now, and for a lot of universities in India you require grades of 95+ out of 100 because the education facilities can barely keep up.



posted on Jul, 28 2011 @ 12:54 PM
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reply to post by neo96
 


It is a tried and tested method for escaping debt.

It all, however, is completely reliant on one aspect that is not being addressed. Not racking up more debt.

Alberta (a simple Canadian province) did just this in the 90's.

We increased and consolidated our debt into one large debt account. We coupled that with drastic cuts to all government programs..."we are going to bring all government spending down to the absolute bare minimum, then cut 10% more".

The surplus generated (note that there was no reduction in taxes at this point) were put directly into debt repayment.

It sucked.

In 2004 the debt had been repaid. Taxes were dropped. Business now booms. We have even shown very stout resilience to the recent reccession.

Before anybody mentions oil...please recognize the fact that oil has been attributing less (as a percentage) to Alberta's GDP since the debt reduction started...has fallen approx 38% of GDP to 25% of GDP. We have been generating large gains in every sector BUT oil.



posted on Jul, 28 2011 @ 01:49 PM
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Originally posted by SavedOne

Originally posted by Fromabove
Contrary to popular belief, the world will not end on August 2cd if America does not raise the debt ceiling.


You are correct about that. But it could be the first step of a downward spiral that will lead to the end of this country as we know it. First let me say that raising the ceiling or leaving it as-is won't make a difference, we're headed for disaster either way because as you said, we're living WAY beyond our means as a country. Our current total debt works out to 668,000 dollars per family (source) and it doesn't take a genius to understand that it can never be paid back. OK, that aside, it appears we are on the verge of having our credit rating reduced by one or more of the major credit agencies. If we default then we will DEFINITELY see our rating reduced, if we don't default we will PROBABLY see it reduced anyway. A reduction in our credit rating will cause 3 effects:

- Interest rates will immediately go up (required to entice investors to buy the debt of a country that has less than a AAA rating)

- Confidence will immediately plummet (the world will see we can't resolve our economic problems in a timely manner and will lose faith in us)

- The stock markets will crash (the stock markets are a leading indicator, and the above lack of confidence will lead to the halting of future growth and thus the market outlook will plummet)

Those are all short term. If we can't immediately swing into action, fix the problems and shore confidence back up, the long term effects will be catastrophic. The higher interest rates will shut down our economy. The loss in confidence will at some point lead to a run on our cash reserves to cover people trying to cash in on the debt they hold while it's still worth something. This will lead to the government printing more money to cover the debts- rampant inflation. We are a nation with a consumer-driven economy and it goes without saying that when people get scared they quit spending money. That will drive us into a deep depression. The crisis in confidence will continue to get worse as the cycle continues. When we hit bottom we'll have crazy inflation, a record jobless rate, a government in tatters and a zombie-like population staggering around in stunned silence wondering how it all went wrong.

I don't think people realize how dangerous this situation is. Our government needed to act months ago, and their delay has only made it worse. Continued inaction will lead to certain disaster.



edit on 28-7-2011 by SavedOne because: (no reason given)



How and why would you think that interest rates etc will go wild. All that will happen is that we won't have free money to spend. All the interest rates, debt payments etc will get paid, plus the national essentials. The alternative is to keep doing this raising of the debt until it really does go beyond out ability to control and then we'll cease to be a solvent nation. We just can't afford to keep getting a new line of credit to satisfy out present living standards every time we run out of pizza and beer.



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