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For athiests, is the question was Jesus real or was he really the son of God? Other?

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posted on Jul, 27 2011 @ 05:12 PM
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reply to post by Hillbilly123069
 


First of all, all the religions you mentioned have the same background they are Abrahamic religions. They look the same because the all have the same base.

Lets use logic, I think almost, if not all, old cultures have dragons in them, some spit fire some don't, some have 1 head, some have many, but they all are dragons. By this logic dragons are real, also zombies, wizards etc.

Leaving logic aside, we just don't know. You can worship a rock for all I and many like me care , just be a nice guy.

By the way, what if the real god belongs to some 10 people tribe in the Amazon, then we are all praying to false gods and will go to hell, isn't that nice ...




posted on Jul, 27 2011 @ 05:12 PM
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Originally posted by Chrisfishenstein


Wow I you just destroyed what you were saying about atheists with the Peter Pan / Tinkerbell comment....Jesus was a REAL person....What you believe is up to you, but Peter Pan nor Tinkerbell were real people??



How does that destroy what I was saying. Believers cannot conceive of the fact that atheists just don't believe in their bronze age mythologies The Peter Pan/Tinkebell is a very apt analogy. I googled "proof of jesus existence outside the bible" 4 million 500 thousand hits. Do you really think that if there was proof that Jesus existed that there might be less debate about the fact. So in 2000 years there has not been any proof, I am saying that it is way debatable. Look up Julius Caesar -- not really debatable that he existed.

So when you ask someone who thinks your core belief is nonsense what they think about your icons -- well what did you expect.



posted on Jul, 27 2011 @ 05:13 PM
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Originally posted by Chrisfishenstein

Originally posted by wmd_2008
reply to post by Hillbilly123069
 


Did he exist there is no real proof of him either its all stories yet again. Also was that character even called Jesus and would he look like how the western churches show him ie white!

If he did exist was he brainwashed exactly the same way as anyone who believes in god ie get them young and keep feeding them BS, do that long enough and even he will believe he is the son of god.

That's what I think

MAN CREATED god(s) just Google names of gods. MAN has created thousands of them all over the world!


Question for you sir......Where is the proof that god doesn't exist?? In this means of thinking you should believe just based on this....Right??

You are saying about multiple gods people came up with....Apparently everyone before us believed in some god, so that should swing you more toward there being a god rather than not??

edit on 7/27/2011 by Chrisfishenstein because: (no reason given)



Actually it doesn't, why do I say that all those belief systems had creation stories about man the universe etc all were different so they can't all be right BUT they can all be wrong.

Most gods were created to explain things primitive men couldn't understand for example Thor the Norse god of thunder. His hammer was the cause of thunder now do you believe that?



posted on Jul, 27 2011 @ 05:16 PM
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Originally posted by Max_TO
reply to post by Wolf Eyes
 


Seems like you found your answers watching ancient astronauts . Unfortunately that is a fairy tail .



Prove the Bible isn't a fairy tale.

At least the ancient astronaut theory has some hard physical evidence to support it. The only anecdotal evidence that supports the AA theory, is the corroboration of the theory provided by the religious texts of the world, including the Christian bible.



posted on Jul, 27 2011 @ 05:22 PM
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reply to post by Hillbilly123069
 


Storytale.................nothing more, nothing less



Oh and believers, "BOG OFF" with replies - each to one's own!



posted on Jul, 27 2011 @ 05:22 PM
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edit on 27-7-2011 by vesta because: Double post.......................



posted on Jul, 27 2011 @ 05:29 PM
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As far as I am concerned 'he' wasn't real and there is no god.
I haven't seen anything to sway me against this opinion.
There is no evidence that Jesus was a real person and it all points towards a con job.



posted on Jul, 27 2011 @ 05:34 PM
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reply to post by Hillbilly123069
 


For me it's both but mostly the second one. I have no real issue accepting that the stories in the Gospels might well be based on a real individual who lived. The supernatural claims however have no evidence supporting them and even the historicity of Christ is questionable.



The crucifixation is recorded history.


It's recorded in the Bible but none of those are contemporary to when Christ lived. The oldest Gospels were written decades upon decades after Jesus supposedly lived and they were written down by Greek scholars, not by eyewitnesses who were actually there.



Help me to understand your mind set please.


There's no evidence for any of the supernatural claims in the Bible and thus, in my mind, no reason to believe.

Then of course there's how illogical and self-contradictory the Bible is and how evil the God it depicts behaves. Most Christians believe Jesus sacrificed himself, but how can it count as a legitimate sacrifice if he came back to life three days later? Neither God or Jesus in that scenario are actually giving anything up. And all of this is meant to be a mission to save people from Hell right? So why does a loving God need a place where he can burn people in horrible agony for all eternity?

I could go on an on, but basically I reject Christianity because it is logically broken, immoral and devoid of any compelling evidence.
edit on 27-7-2011 by Titen-Sxull because: (no reason given)



posted on Jul, 27 2011 @ 05:34 PM
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reply to post by Unit541
 


Not sure why I need to prove anything ?
Many people in this thread toss around the term " fairy tail " but because I do it in reference to AA I am being asked to prove something ?

Please explain



posted on Jul, 27 2011 @ 05:38 PM
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There isn't much doubt among most serious scholars of the time period that Jesus (or Yehoshua ben Yosef as he was probably actually named) was a person who existed at that time and who probably led a popular movement/uprising which resulted in his death. In truth, there were quite a few such people - several of them Messianic pretenders - who had very similar trajectories in that era, in that place and some believe that elements of the various histories may have later been ascribed to the life of Jesus.

Even Jewish writings and histories from the time agree that Jesus existed, though their point of view on his movement is pretty negative, as they saw him as a false Messiah who led people astray from the proper belief in the one true God. Josephus is probably the most famous and well regarded Jewish historian from close to Jesus' time who writes about him, and his writings is generally regarded to be pretty good historical works.

There is a transcription of a letter that purports to be from Pontius Pilate to the Emperor Tiberius which includes a paragraph or two about the Jesus uprising. However, if any of it is real, it would appear that the latter parts of it were altered by later redactors probably to help bolster the Jesus story that he was the true Messiah. The early parts of the letter seem very much like a letter someone like Pilate might send to the Emperor telling him about events that he's had to deal with recently in the province he was running, but then the tone and the very writing style changes suddenly and it seems like someone rewrote or added a subsequent section to the letter to make Jesus seem more messiah-like. Some discount the whole letter, I think it's probably half a real letter, half one written by later Christians to try and prove the Jesus story.

Other messianic pretenders from the around the Jesus era:

1. Judas, son of Hezekiah (4 BCE)
2. Simon of Peraea (4 BCE)
3. Athronges, the shepherd (4 BCE)
4. Judas, the Galilean (6 CE)
5. John the Baptist (c.28 CE)
7. The Samaritan prophet (36 CE)
8. King Herod Agrippa (44 CE)
9. Theudas (45 CE)
10. The Egyptian prophet (52-58 CE)
11. An anonymous prophet (59 CE)
12. Menahem, the son of Judas the Galilean (66 CE)
13. John of Gischala (67-70 CE)
14. Vespasian (67 CE)
15. Simon bar Giora (69-70 CE)
16. Jonathan, the weaver (73 CE)
17. Lukuas (115 CE)
18. Simon ben Kosiba (132-135)

This site has descriptions of each of the false messiahs in the above list.



posted on Jul, 27 2011 @ 05:41 PM
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Originally posted by Max_TO
reply to post by Unit541
 


Not sure why I need to prove anything ?
Many people in this thread toss around the term " fairy tail " but because I do it in reference to AA I am being asked to prove something ?

Please explain


I'm just offering a rebuttal stating that while you're quick to deem AA theory a fair tale (dogs have tails, stories are "tales"), there is no evidence that any other origin/creation "story", in the bible or elsewhere, is any more likely than AA theory.

In fact, quite the opposite. AA theory has much more hard, physical evidence in support of it than any other story about the human past. In other words, if actual evidence is something you look at, AA is much more likely to be true than Jesus being the son of some omnipotent universal being.

So in summation, I'm not literally asking you to prove anything. Just illustrating the point that buying one story hook line and sinker, with no evidence or corroboration whatsoever, while completely dismissing another (that happens to have corroboration and physical evidence), is an exercise in ignorance, and defies all common sense and logic. Blind faith is blinding, it can be no other way.



posted on Jul, 27 2011 @ 05:42 PM
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for me the entirrrre thing isn't real, and is a sad sadistic trick on the minds of the innocent.
like a weird shakespeare play or something you know? evil satan and the son of god, heaven and hell, it's no different then any other story i've ever heard. it has characters, lead roles, Jesus Christ, Adam and Eve, Moses, Noah.
born of a virgin? a spirit in the flesh to deal with sin?

I can write a story right now. It's easy.
2011 years ago to this day there was a great King by the name of Karresan, he envisioned a land, scoped by it's natural and heavenly beauty, built not of his hand, he sent out a plea to the Elders for a son to replace himself and finish what he himself could not even begin to imagine.
The Elders denied his plea and found this to be a great shame on their historical tradition, Karresan's line was to be terminated at once and never spoken of again. yadda yadda yadda you see how easy it is to just make something up?

Now imagine like a team working on something like that. at important periods of human history.



posted on Jul, 27 2011 @ 05:49 PM
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reply to post by Blue Shift
 


Blue Shift,
We went to the same school sir. I have come to most of your conclusions and would love to chat how you came upon these. I did not think any shared my views of John the Baptist.


To the OP:

1. Please submit historical record of Jesus death outside of religious text.
2. Please site your reference that he admitted he was the Messiah of Jewish tradition with any religious text you believe in.

Those two things you can not. You miss the point really of what a theist makes as his or her point, or you want to use them as a proxy for something you create.

I try not to label myself since it would change with each shower but someone who does not practice your certain Jesus based religion can see the good along with the bad. The main point is to see all a religion does, try to be objective.

Take the Jefferson Bible since it is the easiest reference to all of the quotes from Jesus in compiled form, then reflect on how Jesus would view you, judge you, whatever. The point is, all great men are quoted saying great things. History is revised by the victors so their men are usually the great ones with the outlandish attributes and quotes. I believe those quotes are made to inspire you to greatness yourself, not a verbatim account of what happened. (think court reporter taking a transcript 30-100 years after the testimony). That is fact the books you referenced were written at the period long after the best memory could reflect the exact words, but put down the best words to put forth the idea the man had.

The majority of them are wonderful words to live by but parables able to be construed, a moral reference so to speak while a misinterpretation would lead to negative behavior in the name of Jesus. Giving to the poor and forgiving people, turning the other cheek few men achieve in reality. Few quotes are concerning for his frame of mind some of the times, buying weapons before he was captured or pre-judging all "rich" people getting into heaven. The quote about throwing people into the sea with a weight on their neck is strange to say the least, last folks to practice that was the mafia that I can recall.

Overall, personally, I believe a man from Israel named Jesus probably lived in the relative time associated with him, although I like to think history is 30-35 years off based on the star maps of the time. He grew up in a mixed family (father had other children from another wife, Salome) house with lots of children. Very old dad compared to his young mother and an extra wife in the mix, sounds a little like "Big Love" on HBO. Lived a pretty boring life unless you take into account the apocryphal books, showed up and took the place of John, the leader of the revolt and around his 30's got killed for posing a threat to Rabbis or rulers of the day. If you read your Bible and believe that is. I like the interpretation The Eastern Orthodox Church take on Jesus and his family. To each their own though, go in peace....



posted on Jul, 27 2011 @ 05:50 PM
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reply to post by Unit541
 


Not to derail this topic but perhaps you could start up a thread offering up this " proof " you speak of with regards to AA . I would be very interested to take part in such a thread .

Back on topic , all matters of faith are evident to the individual and can not be proven . When people finally come to except this maybe then people will stop trying to convince others with there own words of wisdom , but will rather live there life as testament to there own faith .

When people argue about there own faith or think they can prove a matter of faith or think that there faith is better and more provable then another's they are only fooling themselves .



posted on Jul, 27 2011 @ 05:53 PM
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reply to post by Max_TO
 




I would be very interested to take part in such a thread .


As a skeptic of both ancient aliens and religious claims I second this motion. I want to see a thread showing this so-called physical evidence that somehow makes ancient aliens more likely than a deity.



posted on Jul, 27 2011 @ 06:25 PM
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Originally posted by Titen-Sxull

As a skeptic of both ancient aliens and religious claims I second this motion. I want to see a thread showing this so-called physical evidence that somehow makes ancient aliens more likely than a deity.


Well to me, according to AA aliens are physical beings, and we know physical beings exist. God is, well whatever the hell he is, and whatever the hell he is, we have no idea whether it really exists. That alone makes AA more likely than a deity IMO. I'm not sold on AA either, but it seems far more plausible than God.



posted on Jul, 27 2011 @ 06:26 PM
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reply to post by Hillbilly123069
 

As an atheist, I concede that there may have been an actual historical figure that was the basis for the Biblical account. But given that I lack belief in a deity, I treat the claim that he was the son of a nonexistent being with no small amount of skepticism. Provide proof of the existence of said deity and then we can talk about the pedigree of Jesus.



posted on Jul, 27 2011 @ 06:40 PM
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Originally posted by Hillbilly123069
I can remember being bottle broke, but I cannot remember learning about Jesus. It was just always there who he is. Historical evidence shows that he did walk among us 2k yrs ago. The Holy Bible, the Torah and the koran acknowledge this. The koran and Torah says he was only a prophet. They're still waiting for what they concieve as the real deal. Orthadox Jews believe in him. IMHO, This is the true difference between us. The Old Testemnt on all 3 are very similar., but Jesus coming to us is what changed all the rules. Now instead of the ritual sacrifices and such to attain God's favor, we have only to accept that God loves us so much, he gave us his son, Jesus to be killed in the most horrible way. The crucifixation is recorded history. All he had to do to avoid his fate was to admit he was not the Messiah. So, unless you were unaware of this, your position is that he is not the Messiah. Help me to understand your mind set please.


I think that God made a human versions of himself in Jesus. Only God himself could pay the ransom of any amount of people that could ever sin and cover them and bail them from ending up in Hell. He loved his children so much that he did it.

The wages of all sin is death, but pretty much, no one could have ever bailed themselves out, until God himself sacrificed himself in human form, to bail out as many of his children. But to claim the bailout, you have understand that the guy who came to bail you out is a guy who, being all seeing, does not deceive himself, and is of truth and of love, humility, and has wisdom of somebody who has ears and eyes everywhere imaginable, so his wisdom is above and beyond that of all other creations and therefore he is a guy who does not and cannot deceive himself or others , and who is not immersed in materialism, or worldiness, and does not get starstruck at beauty and material wealth. What he truly values is the selflessness, service, and heart of people who do not decieve themselves and get trapped in the wordliness of this place and who understand that spiritual wealth is the true wealth that matters. Besides believing that he came here to die so that he could bail people out, by being put to death despite being innocent and, what, am I right, hanging out 3 days in Hell, to pay for all the people who would have ended up in Hell, if not him? People have to walk the walk stop decieving themselves any further, once they understand what Father God is about, and what pleases him who is all-seeing.

God is the anti-thesis of the Nazis and Lucifer. He who makes the DNA and genetic blueprints for all things, and who made the perfect beauty, of pre-fallen Satan-who turned into the most evil narcissist hell-bent on taking as many down with him, knows better than to value or base value on beauty, power, and wealth. He is above that, to him who could make it out of thin air, the true value and treasure is what is in the heart of the human, and if true wisdom abides there, and true wisdom does not decieve itself in worldly fleeting pursuits.

God wants people to be in truth and not lies. All the abominable evil people in the world need to fortress themselves by people who have to live in fear, because they lie to themselves and sell out, not knowing that they will have to contend with a 2nd death. Because your soul body never dies, you have to consider that that body will have to spend it's eternity in one of two places, and if your soul did not choose to serve God and abide by his wisdom, then it is not protected by him, and the demons and Satan drag you to hell, pretty much. It is your choice if you want Father God to be the keeper of your soul, but beware, if you have left open holes in your lifestyle for the demons to take over, then you will be dragged to that place of eternal torments.



posted on Jul, 27 2011 @ 06:59 PM
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Originally posted by coolhanddan
We went to the same school sir. I have come to most of your conclusions and would love to chat how you came upon these. I did not think any shared my views of John the Baptist.


Until I really started looking at the Gospel of Thomas, I wasn't sure about how Jesus involved in John the Baptist's death. There were little hints, like him insulting him by calling him a "son of a woman." But Jesus's relationship with Salome, his aunt, really put it all together.

The pieces are all there. But people have worked pretty hard to make them difficult to put together.



posted on Jul, 27 2011 @ 10:30 PM
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reply to OMsk3ptic's first post[/url]
 


How did I forget to mention this. They weren't just decades away, they were life times away. People lived for around 30 years back then. No one has ever explained how someone who was already an adult at the time of jesus's death, could write about his travelings with him 40 years later. That's the equivalent a modern man 35 years old now, writing a non-fiction story of his life in 2111,

Also, I doubt anyone here has seen the (BBC?) documentary "The secret lives of jesus". It went with the explanation that they were written in the second century trying to fill in the gaps of his story with ideas Christians don't consider canon. It does make it very clear though, that many people were writing different stories about jesus like he was a motif of his own.

Similar to how other greeks had a whole pantheon of gods that different people wrote about. Similar culture had a new (smaller) pantheon to base stories on. The fact that this smaller pantheon(God and Jesus) was talked about, doesn't alone mean it's any more real than when Zeus and Athena were being talked about.

~
Another thing though, is that, unlike a lot of other aspects of the bible, we don't have any proof jesus didn't exist, just that there's no substantial proof that he did at all like he did in the bible. I'll admit that lacking evidence(even if there would be a lot more evidence if he was like in the bible), doesn't mean he was for sure not real.

If you already belief the bible, it'll count as proof to you. I guess that's what it truly amounts to.



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