It looks like you're using an Ad Blocker.

Please white-list or disable AboveTopSecret.com in your ad-blocking tool.

Thank you.

 

Some features of ATS will be disabled while you continue to use an ad-blocker.

 

If a tree falls in a wood...... that old chestnut....

page: 2
2
<< 1   >>

log in

join
share:

posted on Jul, 27 2011 @ 02:16 PM
link   

Originally posted by Wolf Eyes
reply to post by -W1LL
 



I disagree … I think the world does revolve around us. It would not exist without consciousness to perceive it.

The measurement problem - (in my own words) an atom only appears in a particular place if you measure it. An atom is spread out all over the place until a conscious observer decides to look at it. The act of measuring it, creates it.

By being in the woods watching the tree.. you're creating it. If you're not there, the tree isn't there. The tree (the universe), is just energy with infinite possibilities until someone comes along and views it. We make the tree, therefore we make the sound. No consciousness = no tree = no sound.

link below to “reality does not exist”. The people in this video can explain what I’m getting at a lot better than I can. Only 10 mins and definitely worth the watch.

www.finerminds.com...




Your thinking about photons, not Atoms. The act of observing a photon changes it's state. But the rest of your explanation is fairly accurate. Everything is just an interference pattern in the matrix of the universe; we percieve those interference patterns with our senses and our brain translates those patterns. However, those intereference patterns exist regardless of whether or not someone is there to percieve them.....




posted on Jul, 27 2011 @ 02:31 PM
link   
reply to post by PerfectAnomoly
 


Spot on. My initial reaction was "Of course it does; it produces a sound wave when it falls". But the sound itself is not the wave; it is the result produced by those waves being recieved and interpreted. So if nothing is around to recieve those waves and perceive the sound, then no sound resulted from the tree's fall.



posted on Jul, 27 2011 @ 02:34 PM
link   
The old "if a tree falls" question is brought up in order to illustrate that common definitions must be established before any conclusions can be reached for a point of argument.

The point of "if a tree falls" is that the two sides cant reach an agreement because they have different definitions about what a sound is. One says sound is merely a kind of vibration, the other says it is one that is heard.

Whenever I talk about things like consciousness, free-will, self-awareness, etc, I always bring up the "if a tree falls" question because I don't think there is any point in arguing over something unless you know what it is you are arguing about. Whenever anyone bothers to set a concrete definition for any of these things, I find they cease to seem very mysterious things at all. The mystery was that we hadn't decided what definition we were interested in using.

If your definition of sound is that it is heard, then a tree does not make a sound when there is no one around to hear it fall. But you must have a common definition for sound in order to agree with that conclusion. The "If a tree falls" question is raised in order to draw attention to the need for a common definition.
edit on 27-7-2011 by Tearman because: (no reason given)



posted on Jul, 27 2011 @ 02:53 PM
link   

Originally posted by Tearman
The point of "if a tree falls" is that the two sides cant reach an agreement because they have different definitions about what a sound is. One says sound is merely a kind of vibration, the other says it is one that is heard.


Precisely. Well said.



posted on Jul, 27 2011 @ 03:43 PM
link   
reply to post by -W1LL
 


Blarneystoner – thank you for the correction… I’m no physicist :-)

“one word you need to look up is perception everything you said may be true but only to you and your perception of life and this world.”
^ I agree with that…

The rest, I don’t… I didn't say anything about god and I didn't say humans were the only conscious beings in the world. The bear could have every bit of consciousness that we have… I don’t know that though, I don’t speak bear. Some people think they are better / smarter than the bear … Ok.. so you’re smarter than the bear… but that doesn’t mean humans are the smartest living creatures in the universe and the only one ones capable of consciousness.

Keep in mind, the OP did say no people, animals, ect around.. otherwise I wouldn’t give the answer I did. I’m assuming the tree doesn’t have consciousness in this scenario and it’s not some Avatar god tree =)~

So consciousness… Can you teach a bear to use the internet? No, probably not…. The bear isn’t on the same level us as… as we, are probably not on the same level as other conscious beings in this universe. He can’t learn how to come on to ATS and talk to you. That doesn’t mean he’s not conscious.

If a bear can’t use the internet because he isn’t smart enough… that also means we might not be smart enough to fully understand the universe we leave in. Which is why these questions are hard to answer. Without getting into an E.T. debate… all I’ll say is it’s a BIG universe and I really doubt we are the only conscious beings in the universe. So if bears aren’t conscious, I’m sure something else besides humans are. The world was not waiting for the first human to be bon… and I can’t prove to you that we’re not alone any more than you can prove that we are.. so let’s not get into that.

My point is that matter needs consciousness to exits. No consciousness/ no matter/ no tree. No “one” in the woods to hear it = no tree. If there is a bear there… then it makes a sound and the bear hears the sound.

re-phrase
If a tree falls in the words and no consciousness is around to is perceive it, does the tree actually exist?

am I crazy? probably .. but it makes sense to me :-)



posted on Jul, 27 2011 @ 06:33 PM
link   
If no one told me that a tree had fallen in the woods, then I would not be able to hear it.



posted on Jul, 27 2011 @ 06:43 PM
link   

Originally posted by SystemResistor
If no one told me that a tree had fallen in the woods, then I would not be able to hear it.


Sure you would.
You don't need to be told just hear something.


Does a falling tree make a sound when no-one, no animal is there to hear it? Yes it does. The vibration and all aspects of it still occur. The thing that we hear when present still happens. If your ears were somewhere else you could still feel the "Sound" that still exists. Period.



posted on Jul, 27 2011 @ 06:46 PM
link   
reply to post by PerfectAnomoly
 


i hold that sound is still sound if it isn't interpreted by human ears/brains. the vibrations of the tree falling does still effect the surrounding atoms.

does a book still have information in it if it isn't read? yes.

how arrogant are we to say sound is only a product of human interpretation.
edit on 27-7-2011 by Bob Sholtz because: (no reason given)



posted on Jul, 27 2011 @ 09:10 PM
link   
reply to post by Stella Lotus
 


How do you know that something that you cannot perceive exists?
edit on 27-7-2011 by SystemResistor because: (no reason given)



posted on Aug, 3 2011 @ 07:56 AM
link   

Originally posted by SystemResistor
reply to post by Stella Lotus
 


How do you know that something that you cannot perceive exists?
edit on 27-7-2011 by SystemResistor because: (no reason given)


You mean if I do not experience it. Because I have experienced it as well as other logical forms of nature..in life, and therefore I can perceive it, so can you. The question is if you are not there to experience it..the sound..the vibration.

The answer is that you live, and you have learned that things happen. In fact that leads to having a wild imagination. Hence why I drossil ATS. (I just invented the word drossil!!) Hmm Word trickery.
edit on 3-8-2011 by Stella Lotus because: (no reason given)

edit on 3-8-2011 by Stella Lotus because: (no reason given)



posted on Aug, 3 2011 @ 08:24 AM
link   
If a tree falls ....it will make a sound....whether anyone is around or not.



posted on Aug, 3 2011 @ 10:00 AM
link   

Originally posted by SystemResistor
reply to post by Stella Lotus
 


How do you know that something that you cannot perceive exists?
edit on 27-7-2011 by SystemResistor because: (no reason given)


Take a black hole as an example.... we don't "know" they exist, as we can't perceive them directly so to speak... but we know they are there by studying the behaviour of other matter particles in the immediate vicinity....

The incredible story that is playing out as we speak in the Large Hadron Collider..... they have never perceived the Higgs Boson particle.... but they are pretty sure it exists.... we will know soon...!

Just showing that we can postulate about the existence of something without actually directly perceiving it!

Aristotle would be proud.....



posted on Aug, 3 2011 @ 10:02 AM
link   

Originally posted by caladonea
If a tree falls ....it will make a sound....whether anyone is around or not.


Care to elaborate?



posted on Aug, 3 2011 @ 10:32 AM
link   

Originally posted by PerfectAnomoly

Originally posted by caladonea
If a tree falls ....it will make a sound....whether anyone is around or not.


Care to elaborate?


I really do not have much elaboration ....except to say....what I stated above is the simple truth and just plain common sense.



posted on Aug, 3 2011 @ 10:40 AM
link   

Originally posted by caladonea

Originally posted by PerfectAnomoly

Originally posted by caladonea
If a tree falls ....it will make a sound....whether anyone is around or not.


Care to elaborate?


I really do not have much elaboration ....except to say....what I stated above is the simple truth and just plain common sense.


Did you read the rest of the thread by any chance??

I know I haven't been a member on ATS for long... but in my short time here I have learned that we shouldn't make claims unless we are prepared to back them up with evidence!

You cannot claim that what you state is "the simple truth" without justifying this truth...?

If you would have read the rest of the thread first, you would have noticed by now, that it is far from "plain common sense".....

I believe the answer to the question to be:-

What is the definition of sound?
edit on 3-8-2011 by PerfectAnomoly because: Spelling...



posted on Aug, 3 2011 @ 12:02 PM
link   
A loud speaker vibrates but does not make a sound.
There is movement of waves, vibrations.
The eardrum vibrates but does not make a sound.
Electrical signals travel from the eardrum to the brain.
The mind or something within you makes the sound.
It makes the sound and hears the sound.

edit on 3-8-2011 by Itisnowagain because: (no reason given)



new topics

top topics


active topics

 
2
<< 1   >>

log in

join