The Holy Spirit is my Proof

reply to post by NOTurTypical

If someone has been drawn to Christ and comes to Him for forgiveness and salvation that means they are the elect. No man can come to Christ unless that man is first drawn by God. (Christ's own words, not mine)

"No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day."

The context is that Jesus is addressing a large crowd and trying to explain some difficult concepts by using allegorical illustrations. They take it literally and start complaining amongst themselves. The murmuring makes Jesus stop his talk and directs his speak towards those complainants.
He is telling them in a backhanded way that they apparently are not of the sort who will be saved. He is speaking in the vaguest terms possible to make this implied threat, that they will be punished for the way they are behaving. Evidenced by the fact that he makes no effort whatsoever to clarify anything he just said, or to further elaborate.
So, again, using the most fuzzy sort of generalization you could possibly find, you take that and assume the position of being the oracle of reading the mind of God and Jesus and adapt it to suite your own purposes.
Again indicative of the nature of your philosophy of self serving at the un cared about consequences to the hearer of your words or of any personal risk to yourself for the slanderous treatment of God and Jesus.

reply to post by jmdewey60


LOL, Christ complains to them that they are following Him for a bite to eat alone and not because He did miracles in their midst. To which they ask how they can do the works of God also. Jesus then tells them the true work of God is to believe on His Son. Then further explains that the reason they don't believe is because they were not drawn by the Father, had they been drawn by the Father and given to the Son they would believe on Him.

Same applies today. Those who die as unbelievers are those who were not given to the Son. Those who do believe on the Son are those who were given to and drawn to the Son. Jesus further clarifies the will of God in verses 39 & 40:

"And this is the Father's will which hath sent me, that of all which he hath given me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up again at the last day. And this is the will of him that sent me, that every one which seeth the Son, and believeth on him, may have everlasting life: and I will raise him up at the last day."



Which again goes with what I said, if a person believes in Christ they are the elect of God and have been drawn by the Father.

First I found the verse were it was peter to be the apostle to the nations/gentiles

"After there had been much debate, Peter stood up and said to them, "Brethren, you know that in the early days God made a choice among you, that by my mouth the Gentiles would hear the word of the gospel and believe" (Acts 15:7)

We are not all the elect.
As I stated in a previuos post Jesus makes it clear there are some already guarented to be one.
Like Moses, Abraham, Isiaha. There is only 144,000.

Jesus also makes it clear his father selects them.
All we can do is aspire to be an elect.

But once again Jesus makes it clear,
Those who want to be first ie elect are to be last.

Allow you're heart to speak for you.
Thats what GOD judges, you're heart

LOTZA LUV

reply to post by NOTurTypical

Which again goes with what I said, if a person believes in Christ they are the elect of God and have been drawn by the Father.

I did a word search for "elect" and got 33 hits.
I am sure you could find one of those verses to back this up, right?

reply to post by Mividau

As can be found in the Clemintine Homolies.

This seems like something good to ponder over but to be serious, or be taken seriously, you are kind of stuck with getting past the fluff that been laid over the top of the Letters attributed generally to Paul, they ARE in the Bible, anyways.

Originally posted by jmdewey60
reply to post by Mividau

 

As can be found in the Clemintine Homolies.

This seems like something good to ponder over but to be serious, or be taken seriously, you are kind of stuck with getting past the fluff that been laid over the top of the Letters attributed generally to Paul, they ARE in the Bible, anyways.

Ummm, What does thismean ???
--->you are kind of stuck with getting past the fluff that been laid over the top of the Letters attributed generally to Paul, they ARE in the Bible, anyways. mean ???

My point being is the Faith doesnt equal sanctification.
My second point being get over Paul and back to Jesus.
My third point, he was not an apostle.
My fourth point, he declared he was teaching a different gospel.
My 5th point being, the DSS was created before the cannon. At the very same time Paul was preaching his new gosple. The early church saw Paul as a liar.
My 6th point being he contradicted Jesus.
My 7th point being, you can argue how Jesus truely meant things by Pauls opinion untill Revelations.
Unless of course we wish to throw his revelation out. But then you would have to throw out Pauls as well.
Since that is his only claim to superseed the 12 Apostles.

My point being Paul is a tare which is evident by the fruits of his doctorine ie TWENTY EIGHT THOUSAND* CHRISTIAN DENOMINATIONS.Pauls doctorines produced nothing but confussion . Which GOD declared confussion is not of him.But people are so busy argueing his points mean this or that. His points are irrelavent because he was not an Apostle. He exalted himself to that point. Which GOD states, Those things exalted of men are an abomination unto him. Screaming well its in the bible its from GOD. GOD and JESUS already told us they gave SATAN free rain. Maybe GOD allowed it as a test to see who would rely on him alone.

Paul declared himself everything to everybody. Said his lieing is ok as long as it serves GODs will.
Does this sound like someone who got personaly trained by Christ himself. We have 12 others to look at to see there is no similarities of haveing the same teacher.

I can just see us now in heaven.

GOD: Did you eat meat sacrificed to idols. US: Yes, Paul said everything is lawfull.
GOD: What did my son say to you. US: Well, not to but Paul said the old coven was done.
GOD: What did my son say to you. US: That you never change but Paul said we are under Grace
GOD: How do you recieve my grace US: Paul said by Faith.
GOD: What did my son say US: By haveing faith and keeping the law BUT........
GOD: Paul said what US: The law is dead, nailed on the tree.
GOD: What about you're works US: I did none, I am under grace.
GOD: Jesus do you know them US: Waveing at Jesus with a big grin
Jesus: When I was hugry he did feed me
When I had no clothes he gave me none
When I needed a place to sleep he gave me no shelter
When I was sick he ignored me.
He is a GOAT Father, a Tare, a VIRGIN WITH NO LIGHT IN HER.
FATHER I KNOW THEM NOT.

LOTZA LUV

Thanks but I will stick with JESUS and do as he instructed me to do. I may not be right about PAUL, but following only as JESUS instructed I dont run the risk of the 2nd death do I????

reply to post by Mividau

My 5th point being, the DSS was created before the cannon. At the very same time Paul was preaching his new gosple. The early church saw Paul as a liar.

That is a theory by one person, which has been completely discredited by all the other scholars involved in the DDS research.
You may be getting information that someone else is getting his info from and is posting the same thing about Paul being a tare. This is on a completely different site, so I don't think you have the time to be jumping to every forum on the internet. Like I said, there seems to be a common source for this type of propaganda out there and it could be pervasive and unavoidable.
Just thought I should let you know that this is going on and to research these things before you just accept them as fact. If you want to find out what I am talking about specifically you could read the thread, OK Prove to Me there was a Jesus. that is on the jrandi religion and philosophy forum.
To repeat what I said on the Mark of the Beast thread. The essential explanation by Paul, the core theology where it explains the role of Jesus in the New Covenant position of Mediator, is correct if you discard every thing you have been told and start completely over to see what it really says, then that would at least put you on the same page as most Christians as far as being able to pull up verses and to be able to argue the so-named Paul quotations, but from a different viewpoint. We really don't know exactly what he actually wrote. It could be there was a central core theology of salvation which just got shoved into a book with the title of Paul on it, just to be able to hold a spot in the Canon. You just have to analyze the books and collect the real parts and put it all back where it was before it was plagiarized and mislabeled.

reply to post by Mividau


That's what's beautiful about the scriptures and is yet another proof that it was inspired by the Holy Spirit. Every conceivable heresy that would ever arise is addressed somewhere in the book. Examples:

1. Reincarnation ~ The word says we are all appointed at least once to die and then we are judged.

2. Two different Isaiahs wrote the book of Isaiah ~ Men have been debating this for thousands of years, hundreds of books have been written on the subject and a great number of dissertations have been made to show there were two different Isaiahs. All the talk could have been easily settled by simply reading John chapter 12:

Verse 38 quotes Isaiah 53, and then verse 40 quotes Isaiah 6. but tucked right in between those verses in verse 39 which says: "Therefore they could not believe, because that Esaias said again,.."

3. Paul was rejected by the 12, especially Peter ~ We go directly to 2 Peter 3:15-16 where Peter says of Paul a few days before he is martyred:

"And count the patience of our Lord as salvation, just as our beloved brother Paul also wrote to you according to the wisdom given him, as he does in all his letters when he speaks in them of these matters. There are some things in them that are hard to understand, which the ignorant and unstable twist to their own destruction, as they do the other Scriptures."

Peter declares a few thing here worth noting:

1. Peter calls Paul "our beloved brother".
2. That Paul wrote "according to the wisdom given him".
3. Peter referred to "all his letters".
4. Peter places Paul's letters on par with "the other scriptures".



The Word erases all these silly heresies that pop up throughout the centuries. Now, the issue comes up to what trust we place in the Word of God over the words of men who weren't inspired by the Holy Spirit when they wrote. My bet is on scripture every time. No one is denying the apostles didn't have conflict, they certainly did. That's why they convened two meetings in Jerusalem to come to an agreement. If these other sources are accurate, they could be, what we don't know is at what point in the apostles disagreements they were written. Were they written before the Jerusalem councils, between the two councils, after the two councils? We have no idea.

But we do know 2 Peter was Peter's last epistle and it was done from prison shortly before he was martyred, he says so in the epistle.

Originally posted by jmdewey60
reply to post by NOTurTypical

 

Which again goes with what I said, if a person believes in Christ they are the elect of God and have been drawn by the Father.

I did a word search for "elect" and got 33 hits.
I am sure you could find one of those verses to back this up, right?

Sure, why not a 10th time, I've got the free time...


"Jesus answered and said unto them, This is the work of God, that ye believe on him whom he hath sent."


"And Jesus said unto them, I am the bread of life: he that cometh to me shall never hunger; and he that believeth on me shall never thirst."

"All that the Father giveth me (the elect) shall come to me; and him that cometh to me I will in no wise cast out."

"And this is the Father's will which hath sent me, that of all which he hath given me (the elect) I should lose nothing, but should raise it up again at the last day."

" And this is the will of him that sent me, that every one which seeth the Son, and believeth on him, may have everlasting life: and I will raise him up at the last day."

"No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day."



"Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that believeth on me hath everlasting life."

As we look behind us, how many have we trampled? Man's most basic cry before God is to be right(eous).

The Apostle Paul writes: "What, came the word of God out from you? Or, came it unto you only? If any man think himself to be a prophet, or spiritual, let him acknowledge that the things that I write unto you are the commandments of the Lord. But, if any man be ignorant, let him be ignorant. Wherefore, brethren, covet to prophesy, and forbid not to speak with tongues." (1 Corinthians 14:36-39)

OP's point exactly so as to guide all believers to the same page. There are too many pages and hardly any agree!

"forbid not to speak with tongues" This is not about a private interpertation of what some think this tongues thing might be. If some do not know the truth according to a right dividing concerning this matter. Maybe some should not speak and just learn.

Lets put it this way
From the book of John till the book of Revelations. Paul teach's a grace only gosple.
I know because I have read the bible 6 times cover to cover.
Once you get to Revelations, Jesus tells us it dont work that way on judgement day.
The conclusion is one of two things. Either Jesus lied in Revelations or Paul lied period.

To me the way I see it as, When you watch all 3 movies of Indian Jones.
You can tell the temple of doom had a different director. It was good,
But not as good as the 1st and 3rd. It has entirely a different feeling to it.
Thats the way I feel ever time I have read The NT.
There is a different director of the NT and its not JESUS.
Jesus tells you exactly what faith alone gets you on judgement day.
Faith is a credit card thats means nothing unless you got the currency to back it up.
Go back to my other post and look at it. Its right there.

My final point before I humbley bow outta this convo and leave my shalom with you is this.
GOD and Jesus are simple truth point blank.
Do you honestly think that a God that loved you so much that he gave his only begotten son.
Would give us complicated confuseing instructions.
That made the entry to our salvation as small as the eye of a needle.
GOD does not confuse you he enlightens you. He doesnt leave you stranded he leads you.

I mean in all seriousness, Hydro has a point that neither one of you seem to address.
Why would GOD in a world of darkness leave a tiny complicated light for you to follow.
He doesnt, He leaves you a big simple light of truth. No twist and turns, 3 steps back 1 forward.

LOTZA LUV
BTW if you follow the comandments, everyone is you're beloved. Down to you're worst enemy.
Those are the commandments Jesus laid out. Not just Love you're neighbor as you're self,
That Paul summed everything up into.
LOVE YOU'RE GOD WITH ALL YOU'RE HEART,MIND, SOUL
As we are to LOVE ALL WITH ALL OUR HEART MIND AND SOUL.
If you love all you will never break any of the commandments.
Just as whatever you do unto the least of you're brethern you do unto GOD.

reply to post by Cor Leonis

"forbid not to speak with tongues"

Well sure.
The Catholic Church did not forbid it but the church where I lived had the charismatics meet in a classroom detached from the main church building where they could have their prayer meetings and speak in prophecy.
They did not do that sort of thing in the Mass, in the main building.
Anyway, this was something comparable, a little like Pentecostal or something but from my observation, miles ahead in terms of the quality of the possessing spirit, in that they had all these wonderful prophetic messages and no gibberish sounding stuff.

reply to post by NOTurTypical

I've got the free time...

I don't see the word, elect, in there, or am I missing something?

Here's one and I guess this explains why you will not post a verse with the word, elect, in it.

2 Peter 1:10 Therefore, brothers and sisters, make every effort to be sure of your calling and election. For by doing this you will never stumble into sin.

reply to post by jmdewey60


Many speak of "speaking in tongues" as speaking gibberish. I'll give you that. There is alot of gibberish out there and it is called tongues. There is also alot of counterfeit out there called truth.

Speaking in tongues of which The Word of God commands the believer not to forbid is a launguage not gibberish.

reply to post by Mividau

I mean in all seriousness, Hydro has a point that neither one of you seem to address.
Why would GOD in a world of darkness leave a tiny complicated light for you to follow.
He doesnt, He leaves you a big simple light of truth. No twist and turns, 3 steps back 1 forward.

There is no end once you step down the path of, "If there is really a god, why does he. . ."
Things are just what they are and no one can safely say to themselves, "I know what I believe is right because god would not allow me to believe something wrong."
The two possible sayings really come from the same place, or mind set.
You could have been at the preaching of Jesus telling the parable of the sewer, and approach him and ask, "But why is there rocky ground. Isn't it so cruel to put that seed there?"
The rock is just there. Same thing as asking, "Why is it difficult?"
Maybe to see if you care,

Originally posted by Cor Leonis
reply to post by jmdewey60

 

Many speak of "speaking in tongues" as speaking gibberish. I'll give you that. There is alot of gibberish out there and it is called tongues. There is also alot of counterfeit out there called truth.
Speaking in tongues of which The Word of God commands the believer not to forbid is a launguage not gibberish.

I never got to the point, really in my post.
I say gibberish all the time. I kind of enjoy making things up and even invent my own language and create songs in my make believe language.
But I do it at home with the door closed.
That was what I was getting at but somehow imagined someone could get the point without me spelling it out.

reply to post by jmdewey60


Sorry, I imagined you would understand that not all are as intellegent as you.

Originally posted by jmdewey60
reply to post by NOTurTypical

 

I've got the free time...

I don't see the word, elect, in there, or am I missing something?

Here's one and I guess this explains why you will not post a verse with the word, elect, in it.

2 Peter 1:10 Therefore, brothers and sisters, make every effort to be sure of your calling and election. For by doing this you will never stumble into sin.

Yeah.. That's all you got? Elect = "chosen" by God for a purpose. Now do your search for anytime "chose" or "chosen" or it's synonyms are used. Now you're getting quite silly.

reply to post by NOTurTypical

Yeah.. That's all you got? Elect = "chosen" by God for a purpose. Now do your search for anytime "chose" or "chosen" or it's synonyms are used. Now you're getting quite silly.

Feel free to go ahead and give your spin on the quote from Peter. Show how that fits into your philosophy.