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The Holy Spirit is my Proof

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posted on Jul, 31 2011 @ 11:13 PM
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reply to post by NOTurTypical
 

This person was already presupposing he would accept Hell as a judgment and didn't want an innocent man to pay for his sins. My driver's license doesn't say "Lord Jesus Christ". I'm not the judge of a person's eternal destiny. I have no idea what they may do with Christ in the future.
OK, good then repeat after me:
This person I was writing to, as far as I know, will not go to hell.




posted on Jul, 31 2011 @ 11:20 PM
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reply to post by NOTurTypical
 

I didn't say speaking unintelligibly is magnifying the Lord. I said people I know who speak in tongues also are people who lift up and magnify the Lord. These people love Jesus and confess Him crucified, buried, and risen on the 3rd day. They confess with their mouth He is the Lord.
You didn't explain it like that before.
So they do some unintelligible rambling and then after they get done then they say praise the lord and then that indicates there is no evil spirit?
Ok how about the people in the congregation who want to be speaking in tongues but have not been given that gift? Do they also praise the Lord?
Are you saying the ones who speak in tongues praise the Lord better, or that praising the Lord is proof that only good spirits make them speak in whatever?



edit on 31-7-2011 by jmdewey60 because: (no reason given)



posted on Jul, 31 2011 @ 11:25 PM
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Originally posted by jmdewey60
reply to post by NOTurTypical
 

That has absolutely nothing to do with your claim that I believe Christians will never be judged. Which is completely false and a straw man. I said Christians will never be "condemned". We could lose all our rewards during judgment, but we'll never be condemned. (Romans 8:1)


You seem to like that term a lot, straw man.


Sorry, It rears it's head quite often around here. It makes no sense to totally ignore someone's actual words and substitute ones that person never said. It's a fallacy, it's absurdity.


That would not be much of a judgement, then, if the outcome was already known.


Really? Why wouldn't earning or losing rewards from the Lord for faithful service be a big deal? He told us to store up riches in heaven which cannot be lost. Paul explains that rewards potentially can be lost, not the believer.


You base this on an unsubstantiated claim that the place of judgement could possibly be like a rewards platform for an athletic competition


The Greek term is "Bema" or "Bhema" which is a term for "judgment" in English that fits more with a judge of a sporting event for the purpose of rewards. Olympians in Greece were judged for gold, silver, and bronze from judges on a "Bema" seat. The term for the judgment of the dead at the end of Christ's 1,000 year reign on Earth, when the dead are resurrected is a different Greek word than "Bema", it translates as "crisis" and correlates with a judge at a trial. The dead's works are judged at this different judgment. In Revelation this judgment happens on Earth and at the end of the 1,000 year reign of Christ. This is the resurrection and judgment of "the dead", which is an alegorical term used throughout the Bible for the wicked, the condemned, those spiritually dead.


There is a proviso that the ones not lost are of God's elect.


Jesus said no man can come to Him unless that person is drawn by the Father. Jesus says that everyone the Father gives to Him will come to Him. Jesus also says that anyone who calls upon His name will not be cast out. That's "elect".


We are to strive to perfect ourselves in order to be among the elect.


Absurd, we were elected to be in Christ before the foundation of the world. It's not the will of the Father for anyone to perish but for all men to come to repentance.


It is not an automatic thing. Once you are absolutely perfect, then you can rest assured that you are of the elect


Absurd 2.0, we'll never be perfect until we have a glorified body, our spirits are born again as a work by the Holy Spirit. That's are "surety" of our eternal inheritance in Christ. Our spirits still "war with our flesh" and we do the things we don't want to do. Paul echoed this. And John said if any of us think we are without sin we deceive ourselves.

I'm not self-deceived. I sin. I repent daily.


Anyway, go ahead and explain your parable.



Naa, you can't even get what I say straight yet. Apology for your false claims?



edit on 31-7-2011 by NOTurTypical because: (no reason given)



posted on Jul, 31 2011 @ 11:26 PM
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reply to post by NOTurTypical
 

No it doesn't. Paul said to seek all the gifts.
"Follow after charity, and desire spiritual gifts, but rather that ye may prophesy"
"But covet earnestly the best gifts: and yet shew I unto you a more excellent way."
An earlier poster gave the verses in 1 Cor. I think with the nine gifts, any of the other eight would be superior to unintelligible gibberish. Why is no one seeking those gifts. I really think there is no such thing as what you claim as a gift. Paul says, what good is speaking which no one understands?



posted on Jul, 31 2011 @ 11:27 PM
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Originally posted by jmdewey60
reply to post by NOTurTypical
 

This person was already presupposing he would accept Hell as a judgment and didn't want an innocent man to pay for his sins. My driver's license doesn't say "Lord Jesus Christ". I'm not the judge of a person's eternal destiny. I have no idea what they may do with Christ in the future.
OK, good then repeat after me:
This person I was writing to, as far as I know, will not go to hell.






Repeat after you?


Who are YOU??


You're not the Lord, I don't bow to you.

I have no idea if that person will end up in hell or not. They aren't dead, they still have a chance to believe in the Lord Jesus Christ. As long as they are breathing it's not over, the fat lady hasn't sung.



posted on Jul, 31 2011 @ 11:32 PM
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Originally posted by jmdewey60
reply to post by NOTurTypical
 

I didn't say speaking unintelligibly is magnifying the Lord. I said people I know who speak in tongues also are people who lift up and magnify the Lord. These people love Jesus and confess Him crucified, buried, and risen on the 3rd day. They confess with their mouth He is the Lord.



You didn't explain it like that before.
So they do some unintelligible rambling and then after they get done then they say praise the lord and then that indicates there is no evil spirit?


(1 Corinthians 12:1) "No man" can say Jesus is Lord without the Holy Spirit. "No man" technically means no man. Is that hard to understand like Peter said in 2 Peter 3:15-16?


Ok how about the people in the congregation who want to be speaking in tongues but have not been given that gift? Do they also praise the Lord?


Yes, obviously.


Are you saying the ones who speak in tongues praise the Lord better, or that praising the Lord is proof that only good spirits make them speak in whatever?


It's a gift of the Spirit. Not all speak in tongues. (1 Corinthians chapter 12)



posted on Jul, 31 2011 @ 11:33 PM
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reply to post by NOTurTypical
 

Really? Why wouldn't earning or losing rewards from the Lord for faithful service be a big deal? He told us to store up riches in heaven which cannot be lost. Paul explains that rewards potentially can be lost, not the believer.
Now you are putting words in my mouth.
I never said "big deal".
You have no support for your theory whatsoever, it's just a theory, when there is tons of evidence against your theory but you cling to it, why, I don't know. You are in love with heaven without trying. You think works are sin and trying to be good is a sign of weak faith. You have a backwards religion and you will not be persuaded otherwise and hold your obstinacy as a virtue.



posted on Jul, 31 2011 @ 11:38 PM
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reply to post by NOTurTypical
 

Absurd 2.0, we'll never be perfect until we have a glorified body, our spirits are born again as a work by the Holy Spirit. That's are "surety" of our eternal inheritance in Christ. Our spirits still "war with our flesh" and we do the things we don't want to do. Paul echoed this. And John said if any of us think we are without sin we deceive ourselves.

I'm not self-deceived. I sin. I repent daily.
Christ in you, the hope of glory. Be ye perfect as the Father is perfect. The soul that sins it will die.
None of those things have any meaning to you?



posted on Jul, 31 2011 @ 11:39 PM
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reply to post by jmdewey60
 



Paul says, what good is speaking which no one understands?


It's not profitable to the church unless there is an interpreter. Some have the gift of interpretation. (1 Cor. 12) Paul said he would sing normally and sing in the Spirit. He would pray normally and pray in the Spirit. Paul says he not only speaks with the tongues of men but "also" the tongues "of angels". (1 Corinthians 13:1) Paul said people who speak in this angelic tongue don't speak to men, but only to God. (1 Corinthians 14:2). Paul also says that "He that speaketh in an unknown tongue edifieth himself" (1 Cor. 14:4), so the unknown tongue of angels to God is "edification" for that believer themselves.



posted on Jul, 31 2011 @ 11:41 PM
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reply to post by jmdewey60
 



Be ye perfect as the Father is perfect.


Christ is extremely precise in every word He spoke. That was in response to a person asking Him what he himself had to do the have eternal life. His efforts for trying to justify himself to God were all centered on his works. Yeah, if we want to justify ourselves apart from Christ we better be perfect.



posted on Jul, 31 2011 @ 11:42 PM
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reply to post by NOTurTypical
 

They aren't dead, they still have a chance to believe in the Lord Jesus Christ.
What if he doesn't but lives a sinless life, will he still go to hell?



posted on Jul, 31 2011 @ 11:47 PM
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Originally posted by NOTurTypical
reply to post by jmdewey60
 



Be ye perfect as the Father is perfect.


Christ is extremely precise in every word He spoke. That was in response to a person asking Him what he himself had to do the have eternal life. His efforts for trying to justify himself to God were all centered on his works. Yeah, if we want to justify ourselves apart from Christ we better be perfect.
No, look at Mathew 5:48, I believe it is the sermon on the mount, beginning with the beatitudes.



posted on Jul, 31 2011 @ 11:50 PM
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Originally posted by jmdewey60
reply to post by NOTurTypical
 

Really? Why wouldn't earning or losing rewards from the Lord for faithful service be a big deal? He told us to store up riches in heaven which cannot be lost. Paul explains that rewards potentially can be lost, not the believer.


Now you are putting words in my mouth


Actually no, you said this:

"That would not be much of a judgement, then"

You're mocking and slighting our judgment before the Lord for rewards of loss thereof.


I never said "big deal".


Correct, but that was your implication.


You have no support for your theory whatsoever, it's just a theory, when there is tons of evidence against your theory but you cling to it, why, I don't know.


Because perhaps you've presented no Biblical; support for your theory. I'll go with Paul's words. No offense.


You are in love with heaven without trying.


You see heaven as the goal, as the finish line. Heaven and eternal life in Christ is the starting line. It's the beginning. Salvation is easy, it take simple faith like a child. Sanctification and glorification is a lifelong process and takes dedication, faithful service to the Lord, and a great deal of love.



You think works are sin and trying to be good is a sign of weak faith


Lies. I've clearly said numerous times ad nauseaum that we are not saved BY our works but we are called and saved TO do good works for the Lord and His kingdom.



You have a backwards religion and you will not be persuaded otherwise and hold your obstinacy as a virtue.



You believe in works righteousness, I adhere to gifted righteousness. How's being prefect working out for you?



posted on Jul, 31 2011 @ 11:56 PM
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Originally posted by jmdewey60

Originally posted by NOTurTypical
reply to post by jmdewey60
 



Be ye perfect as the Father is perfect.


Christ is extremely precise in every word He spoke. That was in response to a person asking Him what he himself had to do the have eternal life. His efforts for trying to justify himself to God were all centered on his works. Yeah, if we want to justify ourselves apart from Christ we better be perfect.
No, look at Mathew 5:48, I believe it is the sermon on the mount, beginning with the beatitudes.


Yes, I'm referring to the last half of Luke 18. He says the same. That a person who wants to do works to inherit eternal life has to be perfect. The apostles even ask how it's possible that anyone at all can be saved. Jesus goes on to say it's "impossible" for man to be perfect, but with God all things are possible. God saves us. It's a work of the Holy Spirit in regenerating us. A work of Christ for His sacrifice. And a works of the father in sanctifying us and predestinating us to conform to the image of Christ.



posted on Aug, 1 2011 @ 12:15 AM
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reply to post by NOTurTypical
 

(1 Corinthians 12:1) "No man" can say Jesus is Lord without the Holy Spirit. "No man" technically means no man. Is that hard to understand like Peter said in 2 Peter 3:15-16?
You are taking a lot of liberties with the verse. Let me quote:
You know that when you were pagans you were often led astray by speechless idols, however you were led. So I want you to understand that no one speaking by the Spirit of God says, “Jesus is cursed,” and no one can say, “Jesus is Lord,” except by the Holy Spirit.

I don't see how this applies. Someone could say Jesus is Lord, and while those words are being said, there is a good spirit in those words.
You need to understand that there are two concepts being explained. One is someone speaking and the other thing involves the thing being said.
The more general thing is the first, where among all the things being said, there is a part about Jesus being cursed. That one part nullifies everything else the person is speaking.
The second concept is what I described earlier and that is the actual thing being said, which is very specific, but it does not spread out to sanctify everything else the person is speaking.



posted on Aug, 1 2011 @ 12:24 AM
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Yeah JM, sorry, your claims are falling on deaf ears. I'm sure Paul didn't mean that anyone who utters those words have the Holy Spirit. I'm sure his implication is the person is saying it because they have their faith in it, they believe He is the Lord. The implication is it's the Holy spirit leading them to acknowledge and believe it. Jesus said the same to Peter when he called Jesus Lord. That it was given to him from heaven above.


1 Corinthians 6:11

"that is what some of you were. But you were washed, you were sanctified, you were justified in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ and by the Spirit of our God."

Amen Paul, praise the Lord Jesus Christ. Jesus is the hero, He is the superstar of our salvation.



edit on 1-8-2011 by NOTurTypical because: (no reason given)



posted on Aug, 1 2011 @ 12:28 AM
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Originally posted by NOTurTypical
reply to post by jmdewey60
 



Paul says, what good is speaking which no one understands?


It's not profitable to the church unless there is an interpreter. Some have the gift of interpretation. (1 Cor. 12) Paul said he would sing normally and sing in the Spirit. He would pray normally and pray in the Spirit. Paul says he not only speaks with the tongues of men but "also" the tongues "of angels". (1 Corinthians 13:1) Paul said people who speak in this angelic tongue don't speak to men, but only to God. (1 Corinthians 14:2). Paul also says that "He that speaketh in an unknown tongue edifieth himself" (1 Cor. 14:4), so the unknown tongue of angels to God is "edification" for that believer themselves.
Well this is getting very interesting.
Let me quote the verse:
The one who speaks in a tongue builds himself up, but the one who prophesies builds up the church.

You, as usual, instead of a direct quote, give your interpretation. Building oneself up is not necessarily a good thing. Otherwise, Paul may have said something like, Don't worry about making sense and building up the group, let's all just build ourselves up. There is something going on here where maybe Paul would like these people to just keep it to themselves.



posted on Aug, 1 2011 @ 12:33 AM
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THIS is "my theory/theology".




John 3:14 And as Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, even so must the Son of man be lifted up:
15 That whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have eternal life.
16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.
17 For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved.
18 He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.

John 3:36 He that believeth on the Son hath everlasting life: and he that believeth not the Son shall not see life; but the wrath of God abideth on him.

John 6:40 And this is the will of him that sent me, that every one which seeth the Son, and believeth on him, may have everlasting life: and I will raise him up at the last day.

John 6:47 Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that believeth on me hath everlasting life.

John 11:25 Jesus said unto her, I am the resurrection, and the life: he that believeth in me, though he were dead, yet shall he live:
26 And whosoever liveth and believeth in me shall never die. Believest thou this?

John 20:30 And many other signs truly did Jesus in the presence of his disciples, which are not written in this book:
31 But these are written, that ye might believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God; and that believing ye might have life through his name.

Acts 16:25 And at midnight Paul and Silas prayed, and sang praises unto God: and the prisoners heard them.
26 And suddenly there was a great earthquake, so that the foundations of the prison were shaken: and immediately all the doors were opened, and every one's bands were loosed.
27 And the keeper of the prison awaking out of his sleep, and seeing the prison doors open, he drew out his sword, and would have killed himself, supposing that the prisoners had been fled.
28 But Paul cried with a loud voice, saying, Do thyself no harm: for we are all here.
29 Then he called for a light, and sprang in, and came trembling, and fell down before Paul and Silas,
30 And brought them out, and said, Sirs, what must I do to be saved?
31 And they said, Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and thou shalt be saved, and thy house.

Romans 10:8 But what saith it? The word is nigh thee, even in thy mouth, and in thy heart: that is, the word of faith, which we preach;
9 That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved.
10 For with the heart man believeth unto righteousness; and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation.
11 For the scripture saith, Whosoever believeth on him shall not be ashamed.
12 For there is no difference between the Jew and the Greek: for the same Lord over all is rich unto all that call upon him.
13 For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved.

1 Corinthians 1:21 For after that in the wisdom of God the world by wisdom knew not God, it pleased God by the foolishness of preaching to save them that believe.
22 For the Jews require a sign, and the Greeks seek after wisdom:
23 But we preach Christ crucified, unto the Jews a stumblingblock, and unto the Greeks foolishness;
24 But unto them which are called, both Jews and Greeks, Christ the power of God, and the wisdom of God.

1 Timothy 1:15 This is a faithful saying, and worthy of all acceptation, that Christ Jesus came into the world to save sinners; of whom I am chief.
16 Howbeit for this cause I obtained mercy, that in me first Jesus Christ might shew forth all longsuffering, for a pattern to them which should hereafter believe on him to life everlasting.

1 Peter 1:6 Wherein ye greatly rejoice, though now for a season, if need be, ye are in heaviness through manifold temptations:
7 That the trial of your faith, being much more precious than of gold that perisheth, though it be tried with fire, might be found unto praise and honour and glory at the appearing of Jesus Christ:
8 Whom having not seen, ye love; in whom, though now ye see him not, yet believing, ye rejoice with joy unspeakable and full of glory:
9 Receiving the end of your faith, even the salvation of your souls.

1 John 5:10 He that believeth on the Son of God hath the witness in himself: he that believeth not God hath made him a liar; because he believeth not the record that God gave of his Son.
11 And this is the record, that God hath given to us eternal life, and this life is in his Son.
12 He that hath the Son hath life; and he that hath not the Son of God hath not life.
13 These things have I written unto you that believe on the name of the Son of God; that ye may know that ye have eternal life, and that ye may believe on the name of the Son of God."



I'm guilty. I'm in the "Jesus Christ is Lord, He is my redeemer, He is my Savior, King, and High Priest, glory to the King of kings, and Lord of lords, my soul has been redeemed by Christ" cult.




My hell-bound "cult' Theology



posted on Aug, 1 2011 @ 12:35 AM
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reply to post by NOTurTypical
 

You're mocking and slighting our judgment before the Lord for rewards of loss thereof.
You are doing it again, but now that you mention it, I would like to take this opportunity to slight it, but what I meant was that a judgement is not a judgement if the outcome is preordained. As for slighting, I already said this is a fantasy you have adopted from somewhere to explain away all the verses that clearly describe a judgement of life and death for believers as well as non-believers.



posted on Aug, 1 2011 @ 12:45 AM
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reply to post by NOTurTypical
 

Because perhaps you've presented no Biblical; support for your theory. I'll go with Paul's words. No offense.
Let me quote your earlier post where you present your theory.

The Greek term is "Bema" or "Bhema" which is a term for "judgment" in English that fits more with a judge of a sporting event for the purpose of rewards. Olympians in Greece were judged for gold, silver, and bronze from judges on a "Bema" seat. The term for the judgment of the dead at the end of Christ's 1,000 year reign on Earth, when the dead are resurrected is a different Greek word than "Bema", it translates as "crisis" and correlates with a judge at a trial. The dead's works are judged at this different judgment. In Revelation this judgment happens on Earth and at the end of the 1,000 year reign of Christ. This is the resurrection and judgment of "the dead", which is an alegorical term used throughout the Bible for the wicked, the condemned, those spiritually dead.
It is a bunch of theory and there are no quotes from Paul. I looked at every quote any of those people on their blogs you linked to had and there was only one verse that could even remotely linked the way you try to do, and that was obviously not about any arena or anything else or that it was anything like a public venue.
The real quotes are the ones I gave you before which you ignored, I guess because you did not like them and wanted to make them go away or something.




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