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The Holy Spirit is my Proof

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posted on Aug, 5 2011 @ 08:29 AM
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reply to post by jmdewey60
 

What, like a license to sin? There isn't a license to sin. No one said there was. Romans 6:1-2 is still in the Bible right?? However, Paul lamented that he still struggled with doing what he didn't want to do and not doing what he wanted to do. John says if "we" (he includes himself) claim to be without sin we "deceive ourselves and the truth is not in us". I'm not self-deceived, that's why I never claim to be without sin. I catch myself screwing up often. I'm not perfect like Christ, nor do I think I'll ever be while trapped in this sinful flesh. John also writing in 1 John 2:1, says he writes to exhort us not to sin, but if we do then there is an advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ.
I quoted you saying something about eventually not sinning. You are saying that you cannot stop sinning. Not in this lifetime. That is you giving a license to sin which the Bible does not. Let me quote Romans 6, ". . .Are we to remain in sin. . .Absolutely not! How can we who died to sin still live in it?" So you imagine Paul is going to use the rest of the chapter to answer the question, and to explain how to sin and still be saved. Hmm, let's see if he does that. ". . .so we too may live a new life." this is after baptism, not in heaven. ". . . we will certainly also be united in the likeness of his resurrection." So in this life, now brought into some sort of spiritual nature that is beyond what would be natural. ". . .our old man was crucified . . ." The former way of living. "the body of sin would no longer dominate us" Sin can not force itself on us. "so that we would no longer be enslaved to sin." We are not hopelessly addicted and can stop. ". . .we will also live with him (Christ)." Jesus is there to see what you do. ". . .consider yourselves dead to sin. . ." You have no reason to sin. ". . .do not let sin reign in your mortal body so that you obey its desires, and do not present your members to sin as instruments to be used for unrighteousness. . ." Do not willingly choose to sin. ". . .sin will have no mastery over you. . ." Sin's power is broken, so if you do sin, it would be you returning to bondage, not it making you sin against your will. ". . .having been freed from sin, you . . ." You become to righteousness what you had previously been to sin.
Romans chapter 7, in my opinion, is talking to Jews, that is all I can figure and if other people don't want to see it that way, then again, in my opinion, they have a reason to imagine otherwise and I would think that reason would be so they can interpret the chapter to mean something about not being able to actually follow the spirit. The chapter starts out saying that here he is talking to those who know the law. In verse 5 of chapter one, he says,". . .our apostleship to bring about the obedience of faith among all the Gentiles. . ." indicating his main audience for this letter was the Gentiles so he puts aside that specific message to them, in order to make a section of the letter addressed to people who were practicing Jews who want to be Christians but just can't bring themselves to stop living by that law. Paul tells them what their proper relationship to the law should be, but to his focused target in these couple passages, he realizes there is this significant segment who have been so psychologically conditioned by their upbringing, to where they can't in good conscience live as if they had never learned the law. So Paul takes a further step down into this conflict of the mind of people who can not treat the law as being anything other than a holy thing of God. Paul most likely went through this experience himself and could speak from personal experience and push people along by pointing out how he had to think at some point, to get through this tough transition. But it is something most people would have no idea about, so why he points out this is for these. The gentiles would have none of this conflict, never having learned the Jewish law in the first place.
1John is saying that everyone has sin, and to deny it means the Spirit is not able to convict that soul, so the truth, as in the truth we can only know by the spirit, is not effectively in that person. This does not mean that it has to be current sin that the believer is continuing to practice. In the Greek, there is way to say something exists without having any time reference, so you could say you have sin, but it could be in the past or the future or the present but the timing is irrelevant to the fact that it ever existed.
edit on 5-8-2011 by jmdewey60 because: (no reason given)




posted on Aug, 5 2011 @ 09:20 AM
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Originally posted by NOTurTypical

Originally posted by jmdewey60
reply to post by NOTurTypical
 



Where does the Bible say we need only strive for holiness?


You think we should not? That's kinda silly. I think we should reject our former selves and live in the Spirit and not the flesh.

It is not an intellectual thing that we do by our force of will (referring to your line, "I think we should reject our former selves and live in the Spirit and not the flesh.) You say it as if it is something that we do ourselves but it is not, it is something God does. You don't want to say it that way because you want to leave another loophole for sinning. You make it seem like conversion is just a decision we make one day and them immediately realize we are going to fail. Another reason you are not a Christian even though you call yourself one. Apparently you never experienced conversion but just sat in church and listened to sermons thinking this is being a Christian.
True conversion is the work of the Holy Spirit and self-made religion will not save you because like you already point out, it is not capable of making you a better person. God has no limitations and if He decided for some reason to create within an otherwise normal person, a man to live a perfectly holy and sinless life, He can, evidenced by the person, Jesus. What worked for Jesus works for us. If you deny God the power to do that, you deny Jesus, even if you say Jesus is your Savior by denying the ability of God to save you from sin. This is the New covenent. The old covenant was, sin, make a sacrifice. The New Covenant is, don't sin. If you think it is, sin, let Jesus make another sacrifice, you will go to Hell.
edit on 5-8-2011 by jmdewey60 because: (no reason given)



posted on Aug, 5 2011 @ 09:37 AM
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reply to post by NOTurTypical
 

"I write these things to you who believe in the name of the Son of God that you may KNOW that you HAVE eternal life." ~ 1 John 5:13

So, not only does John say we can "know" it, he says we "have" it. Not hope to have it, not possibly have it. He says we may KNOW we have it through faith in Christ Jesus.
I meant what you were talking about earlier where you believe you are saved because you proclaim that you know you are saved.
Where in the NT does any one, not do what you do, but even makes the assertion that one knows they are already saved? You go beyond what any of the Apostles ever said, then you take that to the power of two. What makes you believe your behavior is even allowable, much less mandatory?



posted on Aug, 5 2011 @ 09:47 AM
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reply to post by jmdewey60
 





Well, if you ask, what can I do? The only thing to say is, stop sinning???


As learned as you are. Do you not see the simple truth?
All GOD truely wants is for you to completely surender to him.
His will, and His plan for you. Its really simple.

"Love you're Father/GOD with all you're heart, mind, and soul"
What does true pure love entail, sacrifice and surrender.
1 John 4:16
And we have known and believed the love that God hath to us. God is love; and he that dwelleth in love dwelleth in God, and God in him.

John 4:12
No man hath seen God at any time. If we love one another, God dwelleth in us, and his love is perfected in us.

1 Corinthians 13 YLT
and if I have prophecy, and know all the secrets, and all the knowledge, and if I have all the faith, so as to remove mountains, and have not love, I am nothing;

and if I give away to feed others all my goods, and if I give up my body that I may be burned, and have not love, I am profited nothing.

The love is long-suffering, it is kind, the love doth not envy, the love doth not vaunt itself, is not puffed up,

doth not act unseemly, doth not seek its own things, is not provoked, doth not impute evil,

rejoiceth not over the unrighteousness, and rejoiceth with the truth;

all things it beareth, all it believeth, all it hopeth, all it endureth.

The love doth never fail; and whether [there be] prophecies, they shall become useless; whether tongues, they shall cease; whether knowledge, it shall become useless;

for in part we know, and in part we prophecy;

and when that which is perfect may come, then that which [is] in part shall become useless.

When I was a babe, as a babe I was speaking, as a babe I was thinking, as a babe I was reasoning, and when I have become a man, I have made useless the things of the babe;

for we see now through a mirror obscurely, and then face to face; now I know in part, and then I shall fully know, as also I was known;

and now there doth remain faith, hope, love -- these three; and the greatest of these [is] love.
[Foot note: I erased one verse by accident]

Psalm 119:140
Thy word is very pure: therefore thy servant loveth it.


Galatians 5:22
But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, gentleness, goodness, faith,

Deuteronomy 7:9
Know therefore that the LORD thy God, he is God, the faithful God, which keepeth covenant and mercy with them that love him and keep his commandments to a thousand generations;

Deuteronomy 10:12
And now, Israel, what doth the LORD thy God require of thee, but to fear the LORD thy God, to walk in all his ways, and to love him, and to serve the LORD thy God with all thy heart and with all thy soul,

Deuteronomy 7:9
Know therefore that the LORD thy God, he is God, the faithful God, which keepeth covenant and mercy with them that love him and keep his commandments to a thousand generations;

1 John 4:18
There is no fear in love; but perfect love casteth out fear: because fear hath torment. He that feareth is not made perfect in love.

Romans 13:10
Love worketh no ill to his neighbour: therefore love is the fulfilling of the law.

1 John 2:15
Love not the world, neither the things that are in the world. If any man love the world, the love of the Father is not in him.

Hebrews 6:10
For God is not unrighteous to forget your work and labour of love, which ye have shewed toward his name, in that ye have ministered to the saints, and do minister.

If you over complicate the purest and simpleist truth from GOD you will never get it.
Because you will continue to sin because you will never even relize what sin truely is.
So if you dont relize what sin is, How will you stop sinning?
The bible is simple. Its the oldest love story ever told.
Between our FATHER and his beloved children.
He his waiting for all of us to come to our senses and come home.

LOTZA LUV



posted on Aug, 5 2011 @ 09:47 AM
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reply to post by NOTurTypical
 

You ignore all of this, almost like you can't read plain English.
No, I don't ignore anything. Give an example of something I have ignored. I could show verses you have ignored which I have posted to refute your philosophy.
I don't ignore what you present as evidence, I look at more than these tiny fragments you quote, and look at the entire sentence that your snippet was extracted from and see that you are turning a few words into an entire thesis, based on something the context shows it has nothing to do with.



edit on 5-8-2011 by jmdewey60 because: (no reason given)



posted on Aug, 5 2011 @ 09:57 AM
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reply to post by Mividau
 






Originally posted by Mividau
P.S, NOTur didnt you say earlier in the thread that someone would be blessed with the gift of interpertation.
Where are these people? We are in the times that we need to test the spirits. If their is no test ie interprator,
Wouldnt they be classified as false miracles? Would GOD really allow the Blind to lead the Blind.
Because that is what the situation comes down to.


I know you asked NOTur but I couldn’t help butting in…

You asked “where are these people” lol which is kinda funny, because they don’t stand out much, in a large crowd of believers lol

A few years back, before I became a believer, I attended a “born again” Christian church, while I was searching for God and trying to find answers etc…anyway one Sunday I went to the church, and one guy stood up at the front and prayed in tongues, for about 10 to 20 mins.

After he had finished, a woman came on stage that had the gift of tongue interpretation, and she began to relay in English everything the guy had just spoken. Of course, I have no way to confirm if she interpreted his tongues correctly, but she seemed really genuine.

The strange thing about the whole thing, is that this woman was the only one in the church, of about 800 to 1000 people, who could interpret tongues… so I’m guessing it must be a pretty rare Holy Spirit gift to receive.

So to answer your question, those people are out there; they just seem to be extremely rare.



- JC



posted on Aug, 5 2011 @ 10:39 AM
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God has no limitations and if He decided for some reason to create within an otherwise normal person, a man to live a perfectly holy and sinless life, He can, evidenced by the person, Jesus. What worked for Jesus works for us


You seem to forget Jesus had a choice in the matter.
It was GODs plan for Jesus to do what he did.
But it was up to Jesus to fullfill it.

That alone is the first miracle. Without that choice the plan woulda failed.
Yes if Jesus can do it we can to. If we choose to. "IF"
That is another miracle in its self. When we choose to surrender.

Then yes once we surrender we recieve the HOLY SPIRIT.
But the strength of the spirit depends completely on how close we walk with GOD.
Those comandments are the rules for GODS spirit to dwell in us.

GOD can not dwell in evil. Thats why he hasnt stepped foot on earth since the garden.
The HOLY SPIRIT is not unconditional. Henceforth the 10 virgins.
Only 5 kept the spirit full inside of them. Which is why they recieved the promise. (groom)

Since Jesus's acension we have become the temples of GOD.
Each and everyone of us has the chance through Jesus to become the mercy seats.
Remember noone untill Jesus's acension had ever recieved the holy spirit.
Prophets yes, Spirit no.

The closer our walk with GOD the stronger his spirit becomes inside of us.
The farther we walk in our on ways, the weaker his spirit becomes.
Everything is a condition on our choices. From Salvation to the HOLY SPIRIT.
Everything can be lost and yet gained.

LOTZA LUV
The rules actually never changed, Just closer to the way GOD planned for it to be anyways.
You're salvation is you're choice and not a guarentee.
GOD guarented us the chance of it. Yes that chance is free and there.
But remeber the 1st thing we ever learned of GOD via GENISIS.
He is an advocate of Free Choice.



posted on Aug, 5 2011 @ 10:48 AM
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Originally posted by Joecroft
reply to post by Mividau
 





I know you asked NOTur but I couldn’t help butting in…

You asked “where are these people” lol which is kinda funny, because they don’t stand out much, in a large crowd of believers lol

A few years back, before I became a believer, I attended a “born again” Christian church, while I was searching for God and trying to find answers etc…anyway one Sunday I went to the church, and one guy stood up at the front and prayed in tongues, for about 10 to 20 mins.

After he had finished, a woman came on stage that had the gift of tongue interpretation, and she began to relay in English everything the guy had just spoken. Of course, I have no way to confirm if she interpreted his tongues correctly, but she seemed really genuine.

The strange thing about the whole thing, is that this woman was the only one in the church, of about 800 to 1000 people, who could interpret tongues… so I’m guessing it must be a pretty rare Holy Spirit gift to receive.

So to answer your question, those people are out there; they just seem to be extremely rare.



- JC


See that I believe. One speaking in and one to interperat.
But I also know their is the false ones out there too.

The guy speaking in tounges GOD gave a stamp of truth on with the interpration.
Which is very rare. He gave you a way to test it.
Thats who you can tell is from GOD or not. He doesnt get offended if you test them.
He tells us to do so.

Thxs For the reply. BTW what did he say.

LOTZA LUV, Sorry I am a very curious person



posted on Aug, 5 2011 @ 10:56 AM
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reply to post by NOTurTypical
 

Because you're self-deluded, you don't trust what the Word itself says, you have your private interpretation, you're a proud, self-righteous religious person who believes in works righteousness. You don't think Christ is an all-sufficient savior, that He wasn't a complete sacrifice for sins that He needs your help to atone for your sins. And lastly that you couldn't care less that the Word says not to judge another man's servant.
God does not need for us to atone for our sins, we need to stop committing sins.
Saying we don't have to stop sinning is what goes against the Bible. Saying it is ok and normal to sin after claiming to be converted, is the work of the ravening wolves. Being fully righteous is not the message of the wolves.
Maybe I should quote some of this description of who these wolves are.

And many will follow their debauched lifestyles.
. . .Sodom and Gomorrah. . .serve as an example to future generations of the ungodly. . .Lot. . . that righteous man was tormented in his righteous soul by the lawless deeds he saw and heard. . . the Lord knows how to rescue the godly from their trials. . .those who indulge their fleshly desires and who despise authority. . .they are stains and blemishes, indulging in their deceitful pleasures. . .never stop sinning. . .forsaking the right path. . .speaking high-sounding but empty words . . .these false teachers promise. . .freedom, they themselves are enslaved to immorality. . .
These false teachers don't sound like they are preaching holiness.
Concerning Romans 14:4, you are continuing your practice of distorting the word by taking it out of context and making it into a universal law about Jesus and God when it is very mundane and concerns what people eat and what days they celebrate.

ETA: You don't see the irony between the first and last sentences of the paragraph I quoted from you in this post?

edit on 5-8-2011 by jmdewey60 because: (no reason given)



posted on Aug, 5 2011 @ 11:01 AM
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reply to post by Joecroft
 


In the church I attend it's the same, whenever the Spirit prophesies in tongues it's through random people, but the pastor always pauses after it and asks for interpretation and it's usually the same woman who interprets.



posted on Aug, 5 2011 @ 11:06 AM
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reply to post by jmdewey60
 



I quoted you saying something about eventually not sinning. You are saying that you cannot stop sinning. Not in this lifetime. That is you giving a license to sin which the Bible does not.


No, refusing to embrace sinless perfection is not "giving a license to sin". It's merely acknowledging that while we are trapped in our flesh we will make mistakes from time to time. Living is sin without conviction is a good indication that we don't have saving faith or the indwelling of the Holy Spirit. The Greek signifies a continuing willful practice of sin, not random mistakes.



posted on Aug, 5 2011 @ 11:17 AM
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reply to post by NOTurTypical
 

That's the ironic statement of the century, you're the only one in this conversation letting the text go in one ear, rattle around and come immediately out the other ear. There is no deception, I read the text literally, when it says there is no condemnation for us in Christ I believe it, when it says we are saved by grace through faith and "not of ourselves" I believe it, when Christ says He will never cast out anyone who calls upon His name I believe it. You just don't trust in the Word, admit that.
To address this line, "There is no deception, I read the text literally. . ." you further your deception, again, by replacing the text I was talking about, with a different verse. The verse was from 1Peter 1, where it says, "you have like precious faith." Implying that this means we are given the righteousness of Jesus is not being literal, it is quite the opposite of being literal, it is making up an interpretation to suite your desire to preach a philosophy of individual believers being given a guaranteed, irrevocable ticket to Heaven. Where I find the major error in this philosophy being that you allow sin and tolerate it and say it is normal and we can not do anything but sin. That is a problem with me because the NT says over and over that we must be holy. Not just a sticker on us saying holy, but actual real holiness.
Concerning your line,"You just don't trust in the Word, admit that." I would say I do not trust your interpretation because you take small snippets from disconnected topics and take them out of context and apply them in the opposite way as they were being applied where you took them from.


edit on 5-8-2011 by jmdewey60 because: (no reason given)



posted on Aug, 5 2011 @ 11:25 AM
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Originally posted by jmdewey60

Originally posted by NOTurTypical

Originally posted by jmdewey60
reply to post by NOTurTypical
 



Where does the Bible say we need only strive for holiness?


You think we should not? That's kinda silly. I think we should reject our former selves and live in the Spirit and not the flesh.

It is not an intellectual thing that we do by our force of will (referring to your line, "I think we should reject our former selves and live in the Spirit and not the flesh.) You say it as if it is something that we do ourselves but it is not, it is something God does. You don't want to say it that way because you want to leave another loophole for sinning.


Wow, again you post so many lies it;s tough to know where to start. I've never advocated leaving a "loophole to sin". That claim is slander, again refusing to affirm the idea of sinless perfection in our lifetime is not welcoming or condoning any sin whatsoever. When we fail we must repent and seek forgiveness and cleansing. You continue to lie and claim I condone sin, which I repeatedly correct you and say emphatically that I don't. You're a liar. I've never condoned willfully sinning, or living our former life as a sinner. I'm sure in the next few pages you'll again claim that I advocate sinning.


You make it seem like conversion is just a decision we make one day and them immediately realize we are going to fail.


Actually, the Word says our faith is a gift from God, it's "not of ourselves". What actually said is we soon realize our flesh wars against our spirit after conversion. Paul says the same.


Another reason you are not a Christian even though you call yourself one. Apparently you never experienced conversion but just sat in church and listened to sermons thinking this is being a Christian.


More judging!!! I confess Jesus Christ is Lord, and I believe God raised Him from the dead. Check our Romans 10:9.


True conversion is the work of the Holy Spirit and self-made religion will not save you because like you already point out, it is not capable of making you a better person. God has no limitations and if He decided for some reason to create within an otherwise normal person, a man to live a perfectly holy and sinless life, He can, evidenced by the person, Jesus.


Christ was an otherwise "normal" person? No, Jesus Christ is God Almighty who added humanity to His divinity.


What worked for Jesus works for us. If you deny God the power to do that, you deny Jesus, even if you say Jesus is your Savior by denying the ability of God to save you from sin.


Jesus is God, we are not. And furthermore, Christ was sinless from birth until His baptism, He wasn't just sinless from His baptism forward. None of us can be sinless, Paul bemoaned this reality, John testified to this reality. We are sinners, that's why we can't justify ourselves. and I don't deny that God saves me from my sins, He did that in the person and work of His Son, graced me with faith and gifted me His righteousness through His shed blood. Which washed my sins away, not my past sins, but the ones I'll make the Tuesday after next.

All my sins were yet future when he hung on the cross.


This is the New covenent. The old covenant was, sin, make a sacrifice. The New Covenant is, don't sin. If you think it is, sin, let Jesus make another sacrifice, you will go to Hell.


Make "another" sacrifice?? What are you talking about? Christ was the all-sufficient savior, there remains no other sacrifice for sins other than what Christ did on our behalf. Paul mentions this in Hebrews where he is challenging the Jews to press on to spiritual maturity. He warns them that if they reject Christ and return to Judaism to temporarily escape persecution, if they willfully sin after that there remains no other sacrifice for their sins. Christ is the all-sufficient sacrifice. The reject that is to reject and blaspheme the work of the Trinity.



posted on Aug, 5 2011 @ 11:28 AM
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Originally posted by jmdewey60
reply to post by NOTurTypical
 

"I write these things to you who believe in the name of the Son of God that you may KNOW that you HAVE eternal life." ~ 1 John 5:13

So, not only does John say we can "know" it, he says we "have" it. Not hope to have it, not possibly have it. He says we may KNOW we have it through faith in Christ Jesus.
I meant what you were talking about earlier where you believe you are saved because you proclaim that you know you are saved.
Where in the NT does any one, not do what you do, but even makes the assertion that one knows they are already saved? You go beyond what any of the Apostles ever said, then you take that to the power of two. What makes you believe your behavior is even allowable, much less mandatory?



No, you've got the process completely backwards, I know I am saved by my faith and testimony because the Word says I can know that I am saved by my faith and testimony, not the opposite. It's the simple process of standing firm on the Word.



posted on Aug, 5 2011 @ 11:35 AM
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reply to post by NOTurTypical
 

Justification is by grace alone through faith alone. It's not of ourselves, it's by grace alone. Grace means unmerited favor/gift of God.
Let's try a verse which seems to fit your slogan.

Ephesians 2:8 For by grace you are saved through faith, and this is not from yourselves, it is the gift of God;
Grace is what was granted when God saw the works of Jesus. The fact that there was one completely, and fully righteous person allowed God to make a decision, for the sake of Jesus and what he did, on behalf of mankind, to allow a judgement to happen where some will pass, where if not for this granting, God would kill all of us because none of us can make the same claims as Jesus to present our own righteousness.
Justification is the positive verdict we can receive as an outcome of this new type of judgement officiated over by Jesus himself.
We could never receive a positive verdict and be allowed to live if not for the faith of God in fulfilling the promise that a savior would come, the faith of Jesus to do what needed to be done to fill the part of the savior, and the faith that is the gift of the Holy Spirit to guide us into holiness in order to pass the judgment by arriving to it in a sanctified state.




edit on 5-8-2011 by jmdewey60 because: (no reason given)



posted on Aug, 5 2011 @ 11:42 AM
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Originally posted by jmdewey60
reply to post by NOTurTypical
 

That's the ironic statement of the century, you're the only one in this conversation letting the text go in one ear, rattle around and come immediately out the other ear. There is no deception, I read the text literally, when it says there is no condemnation for us in Christ I believe it, when it says we are saved by grace through faith and "not of ourselves" I believe it, when Christ says He will never cast out anyone who calls upon His name I believe it. You just don't trust in the Word, admit that.



To address this line, "There is no deception, I read the text literally. . ." you further your deception, again, by replacing the text I was talking about, with a different verse. The verse was from 1Peter 1, where it says, "you have like precious faith." Implying that this means we are given the righteousness of Jesus is not being literal, it is quite the opposite of being literal, it is making up an interpretation to suite your desire to preach a philosophy of individual believers being given a guaranteed, irrevocable ticket to Heaven.


Look up 2 Peter 1:1. It's not 1 Peter, it's 2 Peter just like I said. There is nothing in 1 Peter 1 that says "you have a like precious faith". That's 2 PETER 1:1.

"To those who have obtained a faith of equal standing with ours by the righteousness of our God and Savior Jesus Christ:"

Peter says we have obtained a "faith of equal standing with" their faith, bu our righteousness? Nope, by the righteousness of Jesus Christ. We have the same savior and the same righteousness, Jesus Christ's righteousness.



Where I find the major error in this philosophy being that you allow sin and tolerate it and say it is normal and we can not do anything but sin.


Lies, lies, lies, you so love to slander and lie about people. What does that say about your character? I don't "allow sin" never said I did, I never said any Christian should continue in a life of sin, not once, and I have repeatedly corrected you on that matter which tells me you're not interested whatsoever in accuracy, or representing what I say truthfully, but with deceit so you can further slander me. We can't continue to live in sin, I've posted Romans 6:1-2 numerous times which addresses this.



That is a problem with me because the NT says over and over that we must be holy. Not just a sticker on us saying holy, but actual real holiness.


And Paul says that we do that through the Spirit, not by the letter of the law. He calls the Galatians foolish and bewitched for thinking that what they began in the Spirit could be perfected in the flesh.


Concerning your line,"You just don't trust in the Word, admit that." I would say I do not trust your interpretation because you take small snippets from disconnected topics and take them out of context and apply them in the opposite way as they were being applied where you took them from.



You're self-deluded JM, the truth is not in you. You make God a liar by claiming you are free from sin. In this thread alone you've said it's "great to be perfect" and you "recommend it".


"If we say we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us." ~ 1 John 1:8



posted on Aug, 5 2011 @ 11:47 AM
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Originally posted by jmdewey60
reply to post by NOTurTypical
 

Justification is by grace alone through faith alone. It's not of ourselves, it's by grace alone. Grace means unmerited favor/gift of God.
Let's try a verse which seems to fit your slogan.

Ephesians 2:8 For by grace you are saved through faith, and this is not from yourselves, it is the gift of God;
Grace is what was granted when God saw the works of Jesus. The fact that there was one completely, and fully righteous person allowed God to make a decision, for the sake of Jesus and what he did, on behalf of mankind, to allow a judgement to happen where some will pass, where if not for this granting, God would kill all of us because none of us can make the same claims as Jesus to present our own righteousness.
Justification is the positive verdict we can receive as an outcome of this new type of judgement officiated over by Jesus himself.
We could never receive a positive verdict and be allowed to live if not for the faith of God in fulfilling the promise that a savior would come, the faith of Jesus to do what needed to be done to fill the part of the savior, and the faith that is the gift of the Holy Spirit to guide us into holiness in order to pass the judgment by arriving to it in a sanctified state.





What does Ephesians 2:8-9 say to you? It says our faith is a gift of God, v. 9 says our grace isn't based on works. It doesn't say our grace from God is a gift, that goes without mention because grace means unmerited favor. If grace was based at all on merit it would no longer be grace.



posted on Aug, 5 2011 @ 12:18 PM
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reply to post by NOTurTypical
 

Ignorance, the spirit of the antichrist is someone who denies the deity of Jesus Christ and denies the relationship between the Father and the Son. Jesus Christ is God and He is the Father's Son. That settles that ignorance. And I never said we are equal with the apostles because we have faith, I said we have been gifted the same righteousness as the apostles, CHRIST'S righteousness. He'd the same Jesus to us as He was to them. We and the apostles stand on the same righteousness before God, Christ's righteousness. His imputed righteousness.
I did not say what I thought, explained by my saying I am being told it is not nice to point that out. I did not say you were the anti-christ but I said something on a par with the anti-christ.
Here is what you said that I was reacting to, which you are now referring to when you say "equal to the Apostles".

That only means we have the same justification,. . .
That means that (according to you) the verdict the apostles have (as in today, our time) is the same as ours. So, let's say for the sake of the argument, that Peter, James, and John are now in Heaven, having passed through the Pearly Gates and whatever that entails. You are saying that if they are there, then we are given the guarantee that we will be there, too because we have been granted a faith.
Everyone is granted, that is what the Greek word means, it is not given based on merit, such as you proclaim a certain thing and based on your proclamation, you receive it as payment for a job well done. Faith is given to whoever happens to be around a place at a time, or whatever, at the choosing of the Holy Spirit. What we do with that faith is what will determine if we go through the Gates of Heaven or not.
Concerning your line, " His imputed righteousness." Could you quote me a verse for that because I am not finding one? If you mean that the righteousness, as in the life and good works of Jesus is presented in judgement as a substitute for our own life and works, that is a philosophy.

edit on 5-8-2011 by jmdewey60 because: (no reason given)



posted on Aug, 5 2011 @ 12:19 PM
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Dear JM and NOTur,

You 2 will never reach a common ground.
You are not holding this convo in love.
This convo has become very pridefull.

Jm, you have become so overwhelmed by you're side.
That you're words have become what you preach against.
You are no longer trying to hear what he is truely saying.

NOTur, You are not trying to hear what JM is saying niether.
You 2 are saying the same thing. But niether one of you even relize it.
You 2 are in a last man standing mode.

Maybe reread each others quotes w/o the personal investment.
You might actually see it. If you cant I will try.

Striveing = Works
Both of you agree Jesus was suffiecient enough to cover sins.
Faith = Works, it is alot easier to lose you're faith then keep it.
NOTur believes through you're striveing/work you can be held to the same level at the apostles.
Which is not a lie ie the 144,000 of first fruits. ie sanctified believers.

NOTur has never really said no works, he just uses different terminology for the case.
Niether one of you disagree on trying to be sinless.
Both of you relize sin is a curse of our fleshly bodies.
Both of you agree you recieve the HOLY SPIRIT upon a true conversion.
You both are not lazy believers, you both have put alot of study into it.

I hope this may help you two reshow you're respect for each other.
As I have seen you hold in the past.

LOTZA LUV an respect to you both.



posted on Aug, 5 2011 @ 01:02 PM
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reply to post by NOTurTypical
 

More scripture you'll completely ignore:
“But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness. Even as David also describeth the blessedness of the man, unto whom God IMPUTETH righteousness without works." ~ Romans 4:5-6
“And therefore it was imputed to him for righteousness. Now it was not written for his sake alone, that it was IMPUTED to him; But for us also, to whom it shall be IMPUTED, if we believe on him that raised up Jesus our Lord from the dead.” ~ Romans 4:22-24
“To him give all the prophets witness, that through his name whosoever believeth in him shall receive remission of sins” ~ Acts 10:43
Abraham could not please God with his self-righteousness, NEITHER can we!! (Ephesians 2:8,9; Romans 10:3,4; Titus 3:5)
In Romans 4:5, "the one who declares the ungodly righteous" is God. This is what I was talking about in my last post. God became gracious by allowing some people to be given a positive verdict, though if not for this grace, they would all have a negative verdict, but for the sake of Jesus, it is granted that there is a way to be declared righteous. This person who does get through judgement is blessed by having his past sins forgiven (if the person has died already, then all of his sins would be past sins).
Concerning the verses Romans 4:22-24, it is saying that Abraham was not declared righteous by the Law, for one reason at least, the Law had not been given. There was no specified steps written down to follow. Abraham did things based on what he believed and because he followed what guidance he did have, he is justified based on that.
Concerning Acts 10:43, Peter is giving a monologue and this passage is about how God does not show favoritism but all people who believe can be saved. He was saying that gentiles can be saved, not just the Jews.


edit on 5-8-2011 by jmdewey60 because: (no reason given)



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