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The Holy Spirit is my Proof

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posted on Aug, 4 2011 @ 06:12 PM
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reply to post by NOTurTypical
 

Who said salvation came from the person making the claim?? Salvation comes through the life, death, and resurrection of the Son of God. Available to all who believe and ask for forgiveness. He redeemed us, we didn't redeem ourselves.
The redemption is of all mankind, from the bondage of what is signified by the old system of the Law, which offered mainly death. How this redemption manifests itself is through a new system of Law which offers life.
What is available, to use your term, is to become in bondage to the Law presented by Jesus, to take his yoke. A yoke is a device to harness efforts and to direct that energy into good use. In other words, works.
This is how you take something which is a potentiality and have it become something effective, as in actually doing something.

Titus 2:11 For the grace of God has appeared, bringing salvation to all people.

That is the potentiality, but we realize that not everyone makes use of it.
Q. How DOES someone make use of it?
A. By putting it into application.
Q. How does one make this salvation applicable?
A. By applying Jesus' commandments to our lives and to our actions.
Q. What does that do for us?
A. It gives us the righteousness of Jesus.
Q. What if I just want to be saved right now and then write the time down and from then, on, look back to it as the time that I was saved?
A. Jesus said, "But the person who endures to the end will be saved." So there is no such thing as saved, in the past tense untill you are in heaven.
Q. But I want a guarantee, right now, that I will be in heaven!
A. Paul said of Jesus, "through whom we have also obtained access by faith into this grace in which we stand, and we rejoice in the hope of God’s glory"
Q.Hang on there, no, we have more than hope, right, because in the verse before that one you just quoted, and which your verse is a continuation of, says were are justified by faith, isn't that the same as saying we are saved? let me quote."Therefore, since we have been declared righteous by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ,"
A.No because it is basically the same idea, from the first word of the passage, to the last. Jesus is declared righteous by God, Justified by passing a Judgement, which we believe we will be able to share in, meaning that favorable outcome of judgement which he has already received. Back to the verse I quoted, Paul says that on account of Jesus and his good standing with God, we share in the grace which leads to glory.
Q. That can't be right because grace means no conditions, right?
A. Grace means a gift, something we could never be able to produce on our own. This is the Law of Jesus which is the work of the Holy Spirit which writes these things on our heart. Our condition of good standing with Jesus is that this process is unhampered by yourself, as in purposely hardening our heart to resist the Spirit so we can pursue things not of the Law.
Q. So, are you saying that if we wilfully choose to commit a sin, we will be lost?
A. Yes.
Q. But there is an assurance of our acceptance by God based on His acceptance of Jesus. Doesn't that make it impossible to be lost?
A. If you choose to resist the Spirit, Jesus quite possibly may tell you, "You worker of iniquity, I know you not."
edit on 4-8-2011 by jmdewey60 because: (no reason given)




posted on Aug, 4 2011 @ 06:56 PM
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reply to post by jmdewey60
 


I'll stick with what Jesus said in John 6. I'm saved by grace through my faith. I have the same gifted righteousness of the apostles, Jesus's righteousness. I'll declare His righteousness when I am judged. You can declare whatever you want to. But as for me, my faith is in what Christ did for me. And I'll strive all my days to follow in His footsteps and to keep His precepts by the conviction and guidance of the Holy Spirit.



posted on Aug, 4 2011 @ 07:00 PM
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reply to post by Mividau
 


I am well thank you.

The miracle on the day of Pentecost was the new birth. The phenomenon on the Day of Pentecost was that others heard the apostles speaking in languages of cultures that the peoples of those cultures understood but, the Apostles did not.
,
The record in the Word of God declares that these peoples heard them speak, "the wonderful works of God" and they heard them speak and "magnified" God. Whatever the purpose God had in the Apostles speaking in languages that others could understand is God's business. It was definitly a witness to them that they had received a miracle called the new birth. In fact the first preaching by Peter, that very day 3000 souls were added to the Kingdom of Heaven (Saved).

The Word of God further states that tongues are either a language of men or of Angels.
"Though I speak with the tongues of men and of angels, and have not charity, I am become as sounding brass, or a tinkling cymbal." (1 Corinthians 13:1)

That we speak in tongues is the believer's business. What we speak (in tongues) is God's. No one has to speak in tongues. But, I believe tongues is perfect prayer.

All things should be done descently and in order, There is alot of non-order in the Christian circles and therefore is a poor witness and puts a bad light on the Christian in general.

Why do I speak in a language fluently that I do not understand? It is my proof that the spirit of God lives inside me and it builds me up spiritually knowing that I know, that I know I am a child of the living God with Christ in me.

"But ye beloved, building up yourselves on your most holy faith, praying in the Holy Ghost." (Praying in the spirit)
Jude 20



posted on Aug, 4 2011 @ 07:01 PM
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Originally posted by jmdewey60
reply to post by NOTurTypical
 

*Sigh* Here we go again, judging my salvation in Christ.
You cease being a Christian by adopting a philosophy which is a human invention meant to destroy Christianity by infiltrating it and subverting it by teaching against the truths presented by Jesus that salvation does not come from a person making the claim that they are saved.



JM
That was a bit of a lowblow dont you think? 1st the lake of fire, now not a real christian.
Could you tell me when GOD an Jesus stopped by and left you in charge of the JUDGEING???
NOTur says they are trying to walk in the same footsteps as JESUS.
And you wish to condemn them on what grounds? Jesus footsteps are alot harder then just works.

NOTur and I dont see eye2eye but they have a goodheart.
You seem 2b forgetting what JESUS said.

#1 Let he who is without sin cast the first stone

LOTZA LUV as always JM

P.S, NOTur didnt you say earlier in the thread that someone would be blessed with the gift of interpertation.
Where are these people? We are in the times that we need to test the spirits. If their is no test ie interprator,
Wouldnt they be classified as false miracles? Would GOD really allow the Blind to lead the Blind.
Because that is what the situation comes down to.

LOTZA LUV 2U2



posted on Aug, 4 2011 @ 07:42 PM
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reply to post by Cor Leonis
 


Thank you for you're testamony.
If you are pure of heart, then I believe in you it is a miracle.

The christians I saw doing it were the ones doing it for show.
The ones that give the people with the true gift a bad name.
It was one of my foster famalies. They ran a church outta of their house as well.
But they had very evil hearts. They just took kids in for the money That was the 1st time I got saved.
The grand ol hell fire speech. LOL.

My true conversion was 6 years ago. When I came to Jesus and GOD through love.

LOTZA LUV 2 U Cor



posted on Aug, 4 2011 @ 07:50 PM
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Fierce Wolves

"I know that after I am gone fierce wolves will come in among you, not sparing the flock. Even from among your own group men will arise, teaching perversions of the truth to draw the disciples away after them. Therefore be alert, remembering that night and day for three years I did not stop warning each one of you with tears. And now I entrust you to God and to the message of his grace. This message is able to build you up and give you an inheritance among all those who are sanctified."

Paul was saying farewell to the people of Ephesus, knowing he would not be back, so was telling them what they may expect in the future, men with a different message. To see what the message was that he was giving, go back a bit in the monologue.

"You know that I did not hold back from proclaiming to you anything that would be helpful, and from teaching you publicly and from house to house, testifying to both Jews and Greeks about repentance toward God and faith in our Lord Jesus."

So you see that what his message was is described by starting out with the word, repentance. This goes with what he says later and at the end of my first quote, which is the object of repentance, becoming sanctified.
If there was to be a different message which is being taught by the fierce men, it would not be to become sanctified. The opposite of Paul's message would be something like, "Don't worry about sanctification because it is not achievable anyway, so logically, God could not possibly demand such a thing to be saved."



posted on Aug, 4 2011 @ 08:00 PM
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reply to post by Mividau
 


God's richest blessings to you and yours! Keep looking up sis! Your redemption is drawing near. If you are like me, I believe Jesus' return is near. Nearer than what any of us really know. A person really has to be spiritually blind to not see this tremendous truth. I thank God for His mercy and grace, without it none of us would be saved. Thank God for His son Jesus Christ and his pure blood he shed for you and me. His blood has cleansed us from all our sins. Thank God for the second Adam!



posted on Aug, 4 2011 @ 08:24 PM
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reply to post by Mividau
 
I did a google search just now on this slogan NOTurTypical used in one of his last couple posts and the number one hit was guess who. My point being, Anyone in the world could think of this little slogan and wonder, "Oh I wonder if this is real", so they google it and think, "Oh here is this guy who seems like a Christian saying it is real, so, ok I guess I should believe it."
The cast the first stone saying might not have been said if the woman was standing in the square proclaiming how great it is to commit adultery.
So he has elevated his platform to prophet of a new theology.
That is why I am hard on him.
He says stuff that if you search, it is him, being the originator.
I can't just sit here. Read the rest of what I was quoting from acts, he says I will be blameless for your blood. Why, because of how hard he worked to warn them of the wolves.

edit on 4-8-2011 by jmdewey60 because: (no reason given)



posted on Aug, 4 2011 @ 09:19 PM
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reply to post by Cor Leonis
I started on the last page, where wolves were being discussed, then jumped to the first page and saw this:


The vultures who hang around on the limbs here on this Forum called "Religion, Faith and Theology, eating the flesh of those who bring something positive for all to benefit will surely taste judgement themselves unless they repent.

If some one approaches the tree on which the vultures sit on limbs and then dies, (I don't know why they die, it's your metaphor) it's natural for the vultures to eat. If, on the other hand, "flesh of those" is taken as synonymous with "something positive for all", as in flesh carried in the hand and offered to the vultures, for vultures must be assumed as included in "all", then the vultures are eating what the one offering was offering.

What judgment? Repentance for what? What did the vultures do wrong?

Suppose I were a wolf, and some well meaning though culturally clumsy person said, "Here, doggy doggy, have a steak." While in the person's hand, that steak is the flesh of the person offering, is it not? If then, I take the flesh offered and eat, am I not eating the flesh of the bringer, or has it become somewhere in the transaction my flesh. At what precise moment is it permitted for me to eat? Is there a sign?

Perhaps then, I should ignore the gift, and just walk away, lest I suffer this judgment you mention. Yes, that's best.



posted on Aug, 4 2011 @ 10:03 PM
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Originally posted by jmdewey60
reply to post by Mividau
 
I did a google search just now on this slogan NOTurTypical used in one of his last couple posts and the number one hit was guess who. My point being, Anyone in the world could think of this little slogan and wonder, "Oh I wonder if this is real", so they google it and think, "Oh here is this guy who seems like a Christian saying it is real, so, ok I guess I should believe it."
The cast the first stone saying might not have been said if the woman was standing in the square proclaiming how great it is to commit adultery.
So he has elevated his platform to prophet of a new theology.
That is why I am hard on him.
He says stuff that if you search, it is him, being the originator.
I can't just sit here. Read the rest of what I was quoting from acts, he says I will be blameless for your blood. Why, because of how hard he worked to warn them of the wolves.

edit on 4-8-2011 by jmdewey60 because: (no reason given)


JM,
I do understand what you are saying. But I find it beneath you to talk that way.
Even Jesus told us not to sling mud like that. Durning the most important comandments sermon.
About the quotes you gave just before replying to me. Jesus said the same thing.
That as soon as he was gone this would be going on.
For many will come in my name. Claiming to be me.

About the stone throwing are you really gonna argue about why he said it?
It is a good princable for a follower to believe is it not? If you cant talk with love.
Walk away dont belittle you're self like that. We dont see eye2eye.
But I do consider you a friend. Alota people will just shut you out because of
you're demeanor. They will label you as one of "those Christians".

You are not, so please dont begin to seem that way.

None of us knows exactly who holds the truth. But if they have the holy spirit,
They will be able to cut through the B.S. If he is knowingly spreading a false gospel.
He will reap what he sows. Jesus and GOD tell us to test the shepards and seek the truth.

Come on you're a 7th Day Advantest. You know how many people think that whole theology is BS.
Just like there is people that think my single covent is BS. Not only that he is not the originator of it.
My one foster family taught the same exact thing. This is a very common theology. Atleast among
evanglest in baltimore md.Even roman catholics believe a form of it.

LOTZA LUV JM



posted on Aug, 4 2011 @ 10:05 PM
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Originally posted by NOTurTypical
reply to post by jmdewey60
 

I'll stick with what Jesus said in John 6. I'm saved by grace through my faith. I have the same gifted righteousness of the apostles, Jesus' righteousness. I'll declare His righteousness when I am judged. You can declare whatever you want to. But as for me, my faith is in what Christ did for me. And I'll strive all my days to follow in His footsteps and to keep His precepts by the conviction and guidance of the Holy Spirit.
Someone can not declare something which is not their own. By belief (meaning you can believe it is true), you can claim it but that is just inside your own mind. That is what gives you hope. But in the actual event, at the point of a decision being made about which way you go in the next life, it is you being hidden in Christ. Jesus decides who will be of his body. Claiming anything yourself is of no use, it has to be Jesus claiming you as his own.
1 John 3:7 Little children, let no one deceive you: The one who practices righteousness is righteous, just as Jesus is righteous.
The term gifted righteousness is a philosophy that I really cant explain being foreign to me but it is something certain people believe in and all I can figure is that it is the opposite of the verse I just quoted. Somehow, according to this philosophy the Bible warns us against, a person is just given a righteousness without actually practicing it, I suppose to make sure they close every loophole that might send them to hell. Seems to me that if they would work as hard at being righteous as they do figuring out how to get away with not being righteous, the world would be a better place.
I am not going to declare anything at judgement. My guilt. If I was asked. Did I sin? Yes. What do you have to say in your defense? Nothing. At this point, Jesus may or may not claim me, I don't know, and I do not trust in where I am at today. I can hope I may be worthy, tomorrow. I can't think of something in my life I could point to that would be evidence of a qualification.I trust that Jesus is way superior to me and has a special ability to figure out what is going on in a person and see something. I have no idea what that would be but I am pretty sure it has nothing to do with how I proclaim one thing or another or make a claim for something. Just like Mividau said it is not words. Words don't save you but Jesus said it is what comes out of your mouth which defiles you. Saying things like I know I am saved because of . . (fill in the blank) is never going to come out of my mouth because I don't know, and it is not in my power to force God or Jesus to save me just by saying the right thing. I seriously don't think all that many will be saved. And that a lot of people you may not think will be saved, based on what they say, will be saved.



posted on Aug, 4 2011 @ 10:28 PM
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Originally posted by Cor Leonis
reply to post by Mividau
 


God's richest blessings to you and yours! Keep looking up sis! Your redemption is drawing near. If you are like me, I believe Jesus' return is near. Nearer than what any of us really know. A person really has to be spiritually blind to not see this tremendous truth. I thank God for His mercy and grace, without it none of us would be saved. Thank God for His son Jesus Christ and his pure blood he shed for you and me. His blood has cleansed us from all our sins. Thank God for the second Adam!


Shalom Cor and lotza luv to you and all who cross you're path.
I do believe this will all my being. All the signs are there just waiting and watching.

Thank GOD for giveing his first born son as our perfect ransom.
Even though we break his heart everyday. We are his favorite creation yet,
He can not dwell with the ones he loves so much.

Thank Jesus for loveing his father and trusting in him.
To walk a perfect life in the flesh to fullfill his fathers deepest desire.
Thank Jesus for not turning his back on us and giveing up.
For shedding his blood, which no other man could do.

Thank GOD and JESUS for makeing our bodies the temple of his spirit.
Thank GOD and JESUS for their love,
Without which there would be no mercy or grace.
Thank GOD and Jesus for showing me the light of the way.
So that I may never stray.

LOTZA LUV COR



posted on Aug, 4 2011 @ 10:40 PM
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Originally posted by jmdewey60
Fierce Wolves



Paul was saying farewell to the people of Ephesus


That same Paul also said:


"because, if you confess with your mouth that Jesus is Lord and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved." ~ Romans 10:9


I've been confessing Jesus is Lord for years, and I don't believe God raised Him from the dead, I know God did. Also John seems to think we can "know" we have eternal life, not just hope to have, not possibly have, but that "we may KNOW" we have it.

1 John 5:13 "I write these things to you who believe in the name of the Son of God that you may know that you have eternal life."


Jesus said that to believe on Him is life eternal. Jesus also said that any man that comes to Him He will never cast out:

John 6:37 ~ "All that the Father gives me will come to me, and whoever comes to me I will never cast out."


It's not wrong, or presumptuous to stand upon the promises of God declared in His Word. I do, I have full faith and confidence that what has been declared in His Word will come to pass. Secondly, who here has ever claimed we should not strive for holiness, or that we should reject the sanctifying work of the Holy Spirit? Who ever said that? Who said we can continue to live in sin continually??? Who ever said we shouldn't strive to grow to maturity in Christ Jesus?

Don't condemn and hate me because I stand on the Word of God. If God declares I shall be saved for believing on the Son, then I WILL stand on that promise even if everyone disagrees with me. It's His faithfulness I place my trust in. He delights in keeping His promises.






edit on 4-8-2011 by NOTurTypical because: (no reason given)



posted on Aug, 4 2011 @ 11:09 PM
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reply to post by jmdewey60
 



Somehow, according to this philosophy the Bible warns us against, a person is just given a righteousness without actually practicing it, I suppose to make sure they close every loophole that might send them to hell.


We're gifted Christ's righteousness for justification. justification declares us righteous, we're not, we're just declared righteous. 2 Peter 1:1 says this. Sanctification makes us righteous. Sanctification is a life-long process. We should remain humble and be led by the Spirit. The Holy Spirit's work is to sanctify us. It's God who has predestined us to conform to the image and likeness of His Son Jesus Christ.


Seems to me that if they would work as hard at being righteous as they do figuring out how to get away with not being righteous, the world would be a better place.


Good God Almighty, it's like I'm talking to a brick wall. Who ever said we shouldn't strive to be as free from sin as we possibly can? Who said we should ignore the conviction of the Holy Spirit? Who said we can sit on our laurels and live the life we used to live before we were called from the darkness?? NO ONE in this thread did JM.

But we don't achieve justification by our works, it's by grace we are saved, grace is unmerited favor of God. The problem is you see salvation/justification as the finish line, the goal. It's not, it's just the beginning of the race, it's just the start. We are justified and indwelt with the Holy Spirit at the time of conversion. We then spend the rest of our lives following Christ and the leading of the Holy Spirit to conform into His image. To bear fruit for the kingdom. For His glory alone. Salvation isn't the goal, it's just a blessing. the goal is to be a profitable servant, to advance his kingdom, to bring Him the sole glory, and to grow day by day to conform into His image and likeness as much as possible.



posted on Aug, 4 2011 @ 11:39 PM
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reply to post by Mividau
 

Come on you're a 7th Day Advantest. You know how many people think that whole theology is BS.
I don't think about how people criticise it because it is always the nit picky stuff, at least it seems like it to me. SDA believe in a fundamental law, such as what Jesus talked about that run parallel to some of the OT, with the Ten Commandments being a good place to start when figuring out what they are. They don't think works save you but doing evil will condemn you. Sinning is considered a good indication of whether you are saved or not, so you need to check yourself to make sure you are not doing any. Something like being overburdensome to another person could be sinning even if you can't pick out one particular thing as being a sin, so it goes beyond what you could write a code for. Paul asks, if you are saved, then sin, are you asking Jesus to be crucified again? So there is no excuse for someone who believes in Jesus to sin. Well, if you ask, what can I do? The only thing to say is, stop sinning. Seems harsh but as far as I know it is the truth. Anyone who is righteous is because of Jesus whether they realize it or not. The world was a dark and evil place before and we are far removed from those times and don't realize how the wold is so much better than before Jesus and Jesus died for every single person in the world. Those who choose righteousness is where the Holy Spirit is.



posted on Aug, 4 2011 @ 11:50 PM
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reply to post by NOTurTypical
 



Secondly, who here has ever claimed we should not strive for holiness, or that we should reject the sanctifying work of the Holy Spirit? Who ever said that? Who said we can continue to live in sin continually??? Who ever said we shouldn't strive to grow to maturity in Christ Jesus?
Where in the bible does it say you can sin, period?
Where does the Bible say we need only strive for holiness?
Where does the Bible say we don't need to be sanctified now?

I was doing some google searches for, where in the bible does anyone say "I know I am saved"?
I wonder if you can give me a quote somewhere in the NT where someone says that. I'm having a problem finding anything and suspect that people in the NT were not in the habit of ever saying something like that.
I wonder why it seems so popular to say that, now?



posted on Aug, 5 2011 @ 12:16 AM
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Originally posted by jmdewey60
reply to post by NOTurTypical
 



Secondly, who here has ever claimed we should not strive for holiness, or that we should reject the sanctifying work of the Holy Spirit? Who ever said that? Who said we can continue to live in sin continually??? Who ever said we shouldn't strive to grow to maturity in Christ Jesus?
Where in the bible does it say you can sin, period?


What, like a license to sin? There isn't a license to sin. No one said there was. Romans 6:1-2 is still in the Bible right?? However, Paul lamented that he still struggled with doing what he didn't want to do and not doing what he wanted to do. John says if "we" (he includes himself) claim to be without sin we "deceive ourselves and the truth is not in us". I'm not self-deceived, that's why I never claim to be without sin. I catch myself screwing up often. I'm not perfect like Christ, nor do I think I'll ever be while trapped in this sinful flesh. John also writing in 1 John 2:1, says he writes to exhort us not to sin, but if we do then there is an advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ.


Where does the Bible say we need only strive for holiness?


You think we should not? That's kinda silly. I think we should reject our former selves and live in the Spirit and not the flesh.


Where does the Bible say we don't need to be sanctified now?


Well, technically we are sanctified at the moment of conversion if you wish to stay strictly to the definition as "set apart". But commonly in Theology sanctification is used as the process the Holy Spirit works in us to conform us into the image of Christ. Shortly after conversion and the infilling of the Holy Spirit we should feel the inner struggle of our spirit warring against our flesh. Paul describes this in Galatians 5:17. "For the flesh lusts against the Spirit, and the Spirit against the flesh; and these are contrary to one another, so that you do not do the things that you wish." We'll never achieve sinless perfection while held prisoner in our fleshly bodies, this heresy is addressed in 1 John 1:8. "If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us."

John includes himself by using the personal pronoun "we" and "us".


I was doing some google searches for, where in the bible does anyone say "I know I am saved"?


Wow, what have Christians done for the thousands of years before Google???

"I write these things to you who believe in the name of the Son of God that you may KNOW that you HAVE eternal life." ~ 1 John 5:13

So, not only does John say we can "know" it, he says we "have" it. Not hope to have it, not possibly have it. He says we may KNOW we have it through faith in Christ Jesus.


I wonder if you can give me a quote somewhere in the NT where someone says that. I'm having a problem finding anything and suspect that people in the NT were not in the habit of ever saying something like that.


1 John 5:13


I wonder why it seems so popular to say that, now?


It's the gospel, that's the good news. John also says that we who believe "has" this eternal life already. Not will have, not hope to have, not possibly will have, but John said the believer in the Lord Jesus Christ "HAS" eternal life already. Praise the Lord, the greatest news anyone could ever hear.

John 3:36 ~ "Whoever believes in the Son HAS ETERNAL LIFE; whoever does not obey the Son shall not see life, but the wrath of God remains on him."



edit on 5-8-2011 by NOTurTypical because: (no reason given)



posted on Aug, 5 2011 @ 12:41 AM
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reply to post by NOTurTypical
 

Good God Almighty, it's like I'm talking to a brick wall. Who ever said we shouldn't strive to be as free from sin as we possibly can? Who said we should ignore the conviction of the Holy Spirit? Who said we can sit on our laurels and live the life we used to live before we were called from the darkness?? NO ONE in this thread did JM
All that is nullified when you say there are no conditions on salvation.
If there are no conditions, then you can sin, why not, you can't be lost, right.

Don't condemn and hate me because I stand on the Word of God.
Because you don't. Why do you think I said you would go in the fire? You make a mockery of the word. When I called you on it you just went deeper into your deception. You are doing the same thing now.

We're gifted Christ's righteousness for justification. justification declares us righteous, we're not, we're just declared righteous. 2 Peter 1:1 says this.
One might imagine from this that if you were to read that verse you would find something to back up your claim. Lets take a look.

From Simeon Peter, a slave and apostle of Jesus Christ, to those who through the righteousness of our God and Savior, Jesus Christ, have been granted a faith just as precious as ours.
From your commentary, I gather that you equate faith with righteousness. More philosophy. There are places where examples are given having to do with faith and righteousness of Abraham and I was reading one today on Noah, but they actually did things which was attributed to them having enough faith to carry out all these deeds, and that was counted as righteousness. What you are doing goes way beyond that and are completely abusing the word to make it say something completely different. That is why I say you are delusional, that is being kind. The alternative is you being on a par with the anti-christ which now I am being told is not nice to point out. You are making the claim that because someone says they believe in Jesus, they are now equal to the Apostles. You have made this claim more than once. But it is not equal faith you are interested in, according to what you are saying, it is this scheme you cooked up that says that this means we are all as righteous as the Apostles. Jesus prayed for his disciples (after Judas had already killed himself) that they would be preserved because they had become his glory. So, if we were equal to them, then we have our guarantee you want so badly. That just seems so demented to me.
edit on 5-8-2011 by jmdewey60 because: (no reason given)



posted on Aug, 5 2011 @ 02:52 AM
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the holy sprit is a bunch of holy s**t



posted on Aug, 5 2011 @ 06:58 AM
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Originally posted by jmdewey60
reply to post by NOTurTypical
 

Good God Almighty, it's like I'm talking to a brick wall. Who ever said we shouldn't strive to be as free from sin as we possibly can? Who said we should ignore the conviction of the Holy Spirit? Who said we can sit on our laurels and live the life we used to live before we were called from the darkness?? NO ONE in this thread did JM


All that is nullified when you say there are no conditions on salvation.
If there are no conditions, then you can sin, why not, you can't be lost, right.


There are none. That's precisely what a free gift of grace is. Unmerited favor from God, gift means a gift. Do your relatives or children have to merit gifts from you? No they don't. Look up the definition of Grace. Not only "can" we sin, but we DO sin, we're sinners. You, I and everyone else not named the Lord Jesus Christ sins. John says that "if we claim we have no sin we make God a liar, we deceive ourselves and the truth is not in us." I guess John isn't clear enough, I'm certainly not a self-deceived person who makes God a liar.


Because you don't.


Yes, I do, I consistently show you from the Word that you're wrong. You read and respond as if it doesn't even phase you when it says we have sin, that if anyone says they don't they are self-deceived. That salvation is by God's grace, that Christ says He will never cast out a anyone who calls upon His name, that we are saved by faith alone, by grace alone. You ignore all of this, almost like you can't read plain English.


Why do you think I said you would go in the fire?


Because you're self-deluded, you don't trust what the Word itself says, you have your private interpretation, you're a proud, self-righteous religious person who believes in works righteousness. You don't think Christ is an all-sufficient savior, that He wasn't a complete sacrifice for sins that He needs your help to atone for your sins. And lastly that you couldn't care less that the Word says not to judge another man's servant.


You make a mockery of the word. When I called you on it you just went deeper into your deception.


That's the ironic statement of the century, you're the only one in this conversation letting the text go in one ear, rattle around and come immediately out the other ear. There is no deception, I read the text literally, when it says there is no condemnation for us in Christ I believe it, when it says we are saved by grace through faith and "not of ourselves" I believe it, when Christ says He will never cast out anyone who calls upon His name I believe it. You just don't trust in the Word, admit that.



One might imagine from this that if you were to read that verse you would find something to back up your claim. Lets take a look.

"From Simeon Peter, a slave and apostle of Jesus Christ, to those who through the righteousness of our God and Savior, Jesus Christ, have been granted a faith just as precious as ours."



Through the righteousness of whom? Our God and Savior Jesus Christ or ourselves? Jesus Christ's righteousness.



From your commentary, I gather that you equate faith with righteousness. More philosophy.


It doesn't say that, it says through Christ's righteousness we have been granted the same precious faith as their's. Paul also says we have all been given a "measure of faith".


There are places where examples are given having to do with faith and righteousness of Abraham and I was reading one today on Noah, but they actually did things which was attributed to them having enough faith to carry out all these deeds, and that was counted as righteousness. What you are doing goes way beyond that and are completely abusing the word to make it say something completely different. That is why I say you are delusional, that is being kind.


Amazing, the guy who says that we need to be sinless to achieve salvation is calling me "deluded" when John says that if we claim to be without sin we delude ourselves. Pot meet kettle. The only on who is abusing the Word of God is you JM. Justification is by grace alone through faith alone. It's not of ourselves, it's by grace alone. Grace means unmerited favor/gift of God.



The alternative is you being on a par with the anti-christ which now I am being told is not nice to point out. You are making the claim that because someone says they believe in Jesus, they are now equal to the Apostles.


Ignorance, the spirit of the antichrist is someone who denies the deity of Jesus Christ and denies the relationship between the Father and the Son. Jesus Christ is God and He is the Father's Son. That settles that ignorance. And I never said we are equal with the apostles because we have faith, I said we have been gifted the same righteousness as the apostles, CHRIST'S righteousness. He'd the same Jesus to us as He was to them. We and the apostles stand on the same righteousness before God, Christ's righteousness. His imputed righteousness.

More scripture you'll completely ignore:

“But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness. Even as David also describeth the blessedness of the man, unto whom God IMPUTETH righteousness without works." ~ Romans 4:5-6

“And therefore it was imputed to him for righteousness. Now it was not written for his sake alone, that it was IMPUTED to him; But for us also, to whom it shall be IMPUTED, if we believe on him that raised up Jesus our Lord from the dead.” ~ Romans 4:22-24

“To him give all the prophets witness, that through his name whosoever believeth in him shall receive remission of sins” ~ Acts 10:43

Abraham could not please God with his self-righteousness, NEITHER can we!! (Ephesians 2:8,9; Romans 10:3,4; Titus 3:5)


You have made this claim more than once. But it is not equal faith you are interested in, according to what you are saying, it is this scheme you cooked up that says that this means we are all as righteous as the Apostles.


Peter said we have a "like precious faith" as they do, and it stands upon Jesus Christ's righteousness, not our own. Again, in plain English.


Jesus prayed for his disciples (after Judas had already killed himself) that they would be preserved because they had become his glory. So, if we were equal to them, then we have our guarantee you want so badly. That just seems so demented to me.


Who does Jesus pray for no less than seven times? "Those whom thou hast given to me.." He prays for US ALL, not the world, but for those of us whom the Father has given to Him. It seems demented to you because you rely on your own doctrine and reject the plain reading of the text. You believe "another gospel" different than the one the apostles taught, which was we are saved by grace alone, through faith alone, that it's a free gift of God and not of ourselves, not of our works.

When you reject the Word of God, the only thing left is dementia and self-delusion. But that's okay, I still forgive you for judging my eternal destiny.



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