"We Don't Need New Taxes, We Need New Taxpayers"

reply to post by Rockdisjoint

The poor and middle class tend to buy their goods from China, do you really think it would be best to make those goods ``more`` expensive?

YES!

With no import tax we are competing on a level playing field with third world countries and China. Do YOU want to get paid the same as a person in China and work in the same conditions???

Because THAT is the ultimate goal. The end of the trend we are seeing is to make a world with two classes the extremely rich MASTERS and the serfs.

The end is planned to take place in 2025. And I am NOT kidding about that!

A year ago in The Global Journal this article appeared Of What Use is Global Governance? written by Pascal Lamy, Director, World Trade Organization (WTO) He speaks of the European Union as sort of an intermediate stage.

...the very incarnation of an international organization of integration in which Member States have agreed to relinquish sovereignty in order to strengthen the coherence and effectiveness of their actions.

...If there is one place on earth where new forms of global governance have been tested since the Second World War, it is in Europe. European integration is the most ambitious supranational governance experience ever undertaken. It is the story of interdependence desired, defined, and organized by the Member States. In no respect is the work complete—neither geographically nor in terms of depth (i.e., the powers conferred by the Member States to the E.U.), nor, obviously, in terms of identity....

Our challenge today is to establish a system of global governance that provides a better balance between leadership, effectiveness, and legitimacy on the one hand, and coherence on the other...

And lastly there is "Global Governance 2025" by by US & EU Intelligence Agencies courtesy of Freedom of Information Act, at cia.gov.


The Atlantic Council has a summary HERE

This report analyzes the gap between current international governance institutions, organizations and norms and the demands for global governance likely to be posed by long-term strategic challenges over the next 15 years. The report is the product of research and analysis by the NIC and EUISS following a series of international dialogues co-organized by the Atlantic Council, TPN, and other partner organizations in Beijing, Tokyo, Dubai, New Delhi, Pretoria, Sao Paulo & Brasilia, Moscow, and Paris. ....

From Carroll Quigley to the UN Millennium Summit gives an outline of the planned world government from the United Nations Millennium Summit 2000, (the UN Commission on Global Governance)

reply to post by jam321

Do you happen to know how much these 50% receive from government considering child tax credit, earned income credit, etc?

You, as well as others, have raised a legit issue about the percentage who don't pay taxes.

I am sorry that I can not help with. Often the data is very well buried. It took me awhile to dig out the info I found.

Do you think they WANT us to know???

This gives some of the information as pie charts and graphs. It is again an eye opening set of charts. LINK

reply to post by jam321


go straight to the source the irs.

www.irs.gov...=213044,00.html

the link for the american recovery and reinvestment act is an interesting read

well thats crap government links 404 but their there.

all i did was google irs deductions and credits.

reply to post by neo96


Thanks,

One of the other things that is not taken into consideration is the fact the largest employer is the federal government. 17% of the work force works for the FEDS, with state, local and teachers added, it gets close to 25% These people, like welfare types do not contribute positively to the WEALTH of the nation. Instead they suck wealth out of the hands of those who do so it is not reinvested in wealth building.

Now add in the 17 to 22% actually unemployed..... That makes some where between 35% to 45% of the potential work force not producing, and the ones who are flip burgers at McDonalds or run cash registers for Walmart, Home Depot and Target (US largest private sector employers)

Found some info on 2009 for the Earned income.

For tax year 2009, approximately 26.5 million taxpayers received over $59 billion in EITC benefits.
it is estimated that every $1 paid out in the EITC generates $1.50 to $2.00 in local economic activity.

www.results.org...

reply to post by crimvelvet


federal employees in my opinion dont generate wealth remember they get paid by tax revenue from the taxpayer

and when and if they ever pay taxes back doesnt even begin to amount to the wealth generation of non government workers.

reply to post by spyder550


Succinct.

I don't suppose this guy found a good solution to magically creating lots of new jobs, did he?

Perhaps by providing amnesty and fast-trac citizenship to immigrants? No?

Or is he just the classic Republican who believes, despite thirty years of evidence to the contrary, that tax breaks for the wealthy create jobs?

Originally posted by neo96
reply to post by crimvelvet

 

federal employees in my opinion dont generate wealth remember they get paid by tax revenue from the taxpayer

Then you have absolutely no clue about anything related to economics, and should sit down and shut up, and try to learn from the people who understand the basics rather than spewing your ignorant, malinformed opinion as if it had value to anyone but yourself.

Remedial Economics 1a: Labor generates wealth. Whether it's a guy building a house, a public worker shuffling papers, or a plastic surgeon installing some new tits, these people are performing a service that has value. Wealth is thus generated.

Would you like to learn about supply and demand while we're in the remedial courses? Maybea small lesson on inflation? C'mon, this is fifth grade stuff, you should know it.

and when and if they ever pay taxes back doesnt even begin to amount to the wealth generation of non government workers.

For the simple reason there are more non-government workers. Congratulations, you have discovered demographics.

reply to post by TheWalkingFox


yeah all those poor people and welfare moms sure create jobs dont they and the only thing funding those people to begin with are the greatest evil this country has even known.

so do tell what happens to all those poor people when the money train stops?

you gonna pony up and give them free food free homes free education and free clothes?

lot of mouths to feed there.

reply to post by TheWalkingFox

Then you have absolutely no clue about anything related to economics, and should sit down and shut up, and try to learn from the people who understand the basics rather than spewing your ignorant, malinformed opinion as if it had value to anyone but yourself.

your not worth it got better things to do

Originally posted by neo96
reply to post by TheWalkingFox

 

yeah all those poor people and welfare moms sure create jobs dont they

Actually, yes they do. Donald Trump isn't the one keeping the local grocery store open. Sally Brown the night waitress who makes $4.25 an hour plus tips who has two kids and gets about $400 a month in foodstamps is the one keeping HappyMart afloat. Take some taxes off her paycheck,and she has more money to spend, thus stimulating the economy more.

really man. Again, remedial economics; it's the masses who make the economy move, not the elite. Increase the buying power of the lower and middle classes,and you're stimulating the economy. Increase the buying power of the top 1% and you're just sending money to the Caymans.

Further, those welfare moms and the poor are almost all working. The fantasy of generational unemployment and welfare is just that, fantasy. Thus, these people are further contributing by providing goods and services for others to purchase.

and the only thing funding those people to begin with are the greatest evil this country has even known.

Welfare is funded by the systematic extermination of 22 million human beings with a side of the generational enslavement of another 6 million?

Or are you just saying you have a REALLY bad grasp on historical perspective?

so do tell what happens to all those poor people when the money train stops?

They keep working, but spiral further and further into debt. Ever been poor, or are you still sucking on daddy's credit cards?

you gonna pony up and give them free food free homes free education and free clothes?

lot of mouths to feed there.

Nothing is free, and no one is getting a free ride now, anyway. If someone comes knocking, yes, I'll provide what I can. It's that "empathy" thing that your ilk were considering a dirty word not too long ago.

reply to post by TheWalkingFox


dont waste my time on people who make ad hominem attacks its not worth it and your not worth it.

move on elsewhere

reply to post by neo96


Jesus. Do you need me to educate you on what "ad hominen attacks" are? I guess I do.

An Ad Hominem is a general category of fallacies in which a claim or argument is rejected on the basis of some irrelevant fact about the author of or the person presenting the claim or argument.

You don't know anything about economics, as is plainly demonstrated in your posts. This is very relevant, since we are discussing, of all things, economics. if you don't know anything about a subject, you should, in fact, sit down, shut up, and try to learn from people who do have some grasp on it.

Now if I were to take a position against your argument on the basis of, say, your post count, rather than the fact that you plainly don't know the subject, that would be ad hominem.

You're learning a lot today!

reply to post by jam321

it is estimated that every $1 paid out in the EITC generates $1.50 to $2.00 in local economic activity.

A Pew report estimated a family farm dollar generates $7 dollars in the local economy. (Factory farms generate nothing) So it would be better to repeal the Food Modernization Act AND enforce anti trust laws so farmers can continue generating wealth and food.

Farmers are 2% of the work force and generate 16% of the GNP!!!! Yet Obama's admin. just passed a law to kill off that business sector!

I did several posts on the Farm Wars on this page www.abovetopsecret.com...

Originally posted by neo96
reply to post by crimvelvet

 

federal employees in my opinion dont generate wealth remember they get paid by tax revenue from the taxpayer

and when and if they ever pay taxes back doesnt even begin to amount to the wealth generation of non government workers.

It is a heck of a lot worse than that. Business must divert capital and labor to not only meet regulations but to generate the "Required paper work"

The Cartels do not give a crap because they just pass on the costs to the customers. For the cartels red tape is a boon because it kill any potential competition.

Small businesses losing out to red tape

In an economic climate with few jobs and cutbacks on basic city services such as police protection and firefighting, you would think cities and states would be overjoyed when someone was willing to open up a new business, bringing with him jobs, economic vitality and tax revenues. You might think that, but you'd be wrong.

Instead, cities and states stifle new small businesses at every turn, burying them in mounds of paperwork; lengthy, expensive and arbitrary permitting processes; pointless educational requirements for occupations; or even just outright bans. Today, the Institute for Justice released a series of studies documenting government-imposed barriers to entrepreneurship in eight cities. In every city studied, overwhelming regulations destroyed or crippled would-be businesses at a time when they are most needed.

Time and again, these reports document how local bureaucrats believe they should dictate every aspect of a person's small business. They want to choose who can go into which business, where, what the business should look like, and what signs will be put in the windows. And if that means that businesses fail, or never open, or can operate only illegally, or waste all their money trying to get permits so they have nothing left for actual operations, that's just too bad. This attitude would be bad enough in prosperous times, but in a period of financial strain and high unemployment, it's almost suicidally foolish....

reply to post by TheWalkingFox

Remedial Economics 1a: Labor generates wealth. Whether it's a guy building a house, a public worker shuffling papers, or a plastic surgeon installing some new tits, these people are performing a service that has value. Wealth is thus generated.

Remedial School of Reality 1a. Wealth is Labor + Resources => a thing of value. Shuffling papers DOES NOT CREATE WEALTH any more than smashing window or slashing tires creates wealth. Yes both are "LABOR" that is someone's time and effort but they destroy wealth.

Useless labor IS NOT a producer of wealth.

I went to one of Peter Drucker's lectures where he explained (in the late 80's) that there is now one American "Laborer" to TEN useless Admin types.

That is why I support SMALL business. not as many useless paper shufflers leeching off the wealth created by the laborer.

Do you support GOVERNMENT leeches because they are GOVERNMENT but hate the Corporate leeches????

reply to post by TheWalkingFox

You don't know anything about economics, as is plainly demonstrated in your posts. This is very relevant, since we are discussing, of all things, economics. if you don't know anything about a subject, you should, in fact, sit down, shut up, and try to learn from people who do have some grasp on it.

I strongly suggest you read SHIELDING THE GIANTS for a bit of a reality check on what the US bureaucracy is like and does.

Originally posted by jam321
Found some info on 2009 for the Earned income.

For tax year 2009, approximately 26.5 million taxpayers received over $59 billion in EITC benefits.
it is estimated that every $1 paid out in the EITC generates $1.50 to $2.00 in local economic activity.

www.results.org...

I hope everyone here realizes that the EITC is nothing more than redistribution of wealth. (I apologize to those of you who do; however, I am pretty sure there are some who do not.) They are "getting back" money they did not pay in.

So that is $59 BILLION (in 2009) being redistributed to lower income citizens (notice I did not refer to them as taxpayers...because that would imply they actually pay taxes.)

Can you tell I am not a fan of the EITC? It's not because I hate low income people. It's because it is such a sneaky type of welfare that I suspect some of the people who receive it don't even know they are getting a handout. They just know they are getting a "refund".

When 50% of citizens don't pay any taxes at all, something's wrong.

When the people find that they can vote themselves money, that will herald the end of the republic." That is attributed to Benjamin Franklin. Sounds like where we are right now.

Here's a very interesting article about the EITC:
www.lewrockwell.com...
It was written by an economics instructor. Among other things, he mentions how it is full of fraud:

And not only is the EITC program expensive, it is rife with fraud. In 1994, former Senator and Treasury Secretary Lloyd Bentsen stated: "By the time we release the 1996 budget — early next year — we will develop measures to deny the Earned Income Tax Credit to illegal aliens. The IRS estimates that over 150,000 illegal aliens claimed the EITC this year for last year's taxes." A February 2002 IRS study reported that in the 1999 tax year approximately $9 billion or 30 percent of the 1999 tax year EITC should not have been paid. Fraud is so rampant in the EITC program that President Bush proposed in his fiscal year 2004 budget a $100,000 million appropriation for additional staff to police the EITC program.

The EITC should not be reformed or reduced, it should be eliminated. But it should not be eliminated because it is a refundable tax credit or because it is too expensive or because it has a high rate of fraud. It should be eliminated because it is a massive income redistribution scheme. Clinton's Secretary of Health and Human Services, Donna Shalala, described by The Washington Post as "one of the most successful government managers of modern times," maintained that the EITC "gives a tax refund to the working poor." But the EITC is not a tax refund, one does not have to be working to receive it, and neither does one have to be poor. And since a worker can get advance EITC payments included in his paycheck, the EITC is the equivalent of a pay increase, courtesy of hard-working taxpayers. But because it is now a major cornerstone of the welfare state, neither a reduction in the maximum EITC amount nor the complete elimination of the EITC program is on the Congressional agenda.

It is high time that the EITC program be exposed for the income redistribution program it really is. A better name for it would be UITP: the Unearned Income Transfer Payment. But until the members of Congress commit to the wholesale dismantling of the welfare state, the EITC, like the income tax itself, is here to stay.

April 14, 2004

It's not the most recent article, but it is very interesting.

Originally posted by TheWalkingFox

Originally posted by neo96
reply to post by TheWalkingFox

 

yeah all those poor people and welfare moms sure create jobs dont they

Actually, yes they do. Donald Trump isn't the one keeping the local grocery store open. Sally Brown the night waitress who makes $4.25 an hour plus tips who has two kids and gets about $400 a month in foodstamps is the one keeping HappyMart afloat. Take some taxes off her paycheck,and she has more money to spend, thus stimulating the economy more.

really man. Again, remedial economics; it's the masses who make the economy move, not the elite. Increase the buying power of the lower and middle classes,and you're stimulating the economy. Increase the buying power of the top 1% and you're just sending money to the Caymans.

First off a Sally brown with 2 kids making 4.25/hr+tips is not paying into federal income taxes, unless she works at some iron chef/ritz type restaurant. And ontop of that, she's getting EITC for two kids (3500 per kid), that 5k/yr of foodstamps, possibly TANF and billpay assistance. Not to mention both kids and probably her qualify for medicaid as well, not to mention low income housing projects. That's already about 10-15k worth of entitlements, which surely more then offsets her 6% SS tax and whatever state side taxes she has to pay out of her check.

Secondly, When trump knows his taxes aren't going to go up 4% from what they currently are, that's enough extra dough to go hire about 100 more joe smiths and sally browns, and he knows he can expand his business, open new stores, and put people to work. Now provided those 100 people aren't 2 kid single mothers working half on the books with unreported cash income, you now have a giant handful of new taxpayers contributing, AND you expanded the economy. Sure if you took his 4% taxes, you have slightly more tax income, but the economy stagnates.

Its not about tax BREAKS for the rich, its about KEEPING THE TAXES WHERE THEY FREAKING ARE. Stability grows the economy, and a bigger economy will grow taxes, just not as immediately as tax hikes.

Not to mention, if my wife maxes out a credit card, I don't give her more money. Ever had a kid, who went out and bought a new playstation, or took a vacation, ended up broke right before bills asking you for money? That is what the government is doing. Spending irresponsibly, and crawling back because they spent all their bill money on candy and fun.

reply to post by crimvelvet

A Pew report estimated a family farm dollar generates $7 dollars in the local economy.

Appreciate the contribution and all the links you have provided. The farmer one was an eye opener IMO.