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Anders Behring Breivik and the hidden hate of ATS.

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posted on Jul, 27 2011 @ 06:13 AM
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Originally posted by The Revenant
The problem I have is this.

ATS is NOT dealing with its' hatred. We all have it. I have it with my views about right-wing and religious people. Others have it towards me because I dare to challenge the right-wing and religious hegemony established here on ATS.


I want to thank you for writing this, and for your post in general which was very throughtful and impressive. There is a certain kind of deep and peculiar frustration that comes when you are given a strong ideological label by an opponent, because it cuts a ragged swath through whatever nuance a your views might have and silences any chance to find common ground. For example, several years ago now it must have been, a poster on ATS named Parallax once labeled me a "right-wing monster" in a very public way here that was one of my first true stinging attacks on ATS. It was a real eye-opener for me, alright. Actually it was very valuable because it made me ask myself, Why would someone think that about me? I honestly thought (and think) myself beyond ideological labels because what I attempt to be foremost is a student of history and human nature. History and human nature are, as it turns out, incredibly savage and tragic. And yet the darkest times also contain great beauty, great light. Of course, being unable to express that to an opponent on the net is particularly frustrating when only part of your position is seen, stretched, and hammered flat for polemical reasons by the Other.




Is the coming violence...the only answer? Or can we find another more 'human' way of living with each others differences?


The sad and funny (and ultimately liberating) paradox of human life is that both things happen every day. And always have. And always will.

Peace.

Silent Thunder

edit on 7/27/11 by silent thunder because: (no reason given)




posted on Jul, 27 2011 @ 06:19 AM
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reply to post by Cythraul
 



You speak as though this 'Marshal plan' is common knowledge.


It should be if you've ever read anything about world war 2. At least, I was under the impression that people who step into political debates at least know of the marshall plan...

How can one research conspiracy theories if one does not know the official story? Sounds a bit like chasing one's tail.



posted on Jul, 27 2011 @ 07:14 AM
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I don't have anything against leftists unless they want to force their political view upon me.
I know few leftists, they are volunteers in Africa and always be a good people.



posted on Jul, 27 2011 @ 07:21 AM
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On an internet forum people can be anything they want. Actions are just that actions. Live and die by actions.

Most people are cowards and if push came to shove they would cower.

Begone the whimps of the world and embrace a new bittersweet hero.
#
The terrorist, you me, and everyone else.

Care to disagree?... This is the way of the world.



posted on Jul, 27 2011 @ 08:02 AM
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Originally posted by Cythraul
b) You speak as though this 'Marshal plan' is common knowledge.


I'm sorry, but I have to confirm: the Marshall Plan certainly is common knowledge.
At least if you had even the most basic form of history education.

I'm also not sure where you got the 'Marxist EU project' idea from.

The current left-wing in Europe (social democrats) are actually center parties, without much connection to left-wing ideology. Real leftist parties in Europe consist of less than 2 or 3 % of the total, they hardly exist. Right-wing (nationalist) parties are far more popular the last 20 years.
Biggest political families in most European countries these days are center-right: christian-democrats and liberals.



posted on Jul, 27 2011 @ 08:10 AM
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You speak as though this 'Marshal plan' is common knowledge.



Hi,

For Marshal Plan information, please go to this homepage: www.google.com

There you can enter: The Marshall Plan (officially the European Recovery Program, ERP)

Thanks,



posted on Jul, 27 2011 @ 08:24 AM
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reply to post by The Revenant
 




Anders Behring Breivik and the hidden hate of ATS


Word games.

It's okay, we've been trained to use them. One word in particular, hate, is the single most abused and misunderstood in language. We apply it like butter, without much thought because it spreads easily and tastes good in concept. But we don't give much consideration to what it means... because we don't really care.

Have you ever known genuine, true love? Would you know it if you did? It's a rare commodity. Some people spend their entire lives in search of it and die with an empty heart.

True hate... the real thing, is just as rare it is not any stretch to say that many, if not most of us, will never know it.

But, forget that for now. This four letter battleaxe will be applied regardless.

Oh, the other thing is the concept of faith. You know, how all Muslims are this or all Christians are that? These are equally as abused and just as corn fed. People are still individuals no matter what church they go to, if any at all. But we do love to stereotype and lump complete strangers into groups where they can be bludgeoned along with examples of those we dislike.

It's really quite tasty... especially after we spread the hate-word butter. Mmmm. Wow, what a concept! Spreading hatred of those we accuse of hatred...

There are sick people in every corner of this world. Some of them pick up a weapon and kill others for no apparent reason that bears any reason to the rest of us. But, it's not religion, not politics, not hatred... it's the human condition so, if you want to slather some spread on this toast, be sure to cover all 7 billion of us, including yourself.
edit on 27-7-2011 by redoubt because: typos



posted on Jul, 27 2011 @ 08:38 AM
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Originally posted by The Revenant

I just hope there's a future for us all, because if ATS is anything to go by, we're heading for another big conflict between the far-right and the left. I hoped I'd never see it.

The Revenant.


Too late. I'm from the future and I've already seen it. We're headed for a Socialist versus Multi-National war. Not just in the U.S. Worldwide. It has already started in North Africa and it will spread out.

The Socialists win.

I want to clarify that I am not a violent Socialist extremist. I'm calling for a peaceful demand for higher worker wages. But the workers of the world are learning what everyone's income is and they're feeling exploited.

I hate Communism. It doesn't work. Planned Economies don't work. Rule by the military few doesn't work. Labor Parties work.

The Anders of the world can target people like me but historically the workers always win.
edit on 27-7-2011 by ren1999 because: for my beliefs



posted on Jul, 27 2011 @ 09:41 AM
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Originally posted by Hilltaker

You speak as though this 'Marshal plan' is common knowledge.



Hi,

For Marshal Plan information, please go to this homepage: www.google.com

There you can enter: The Marshall Plan (officially the European Recovery Program, ERP)

Thanks,

How is that helpful? I wasn’t disputing the existence of such a plan – I asked, humbly, for help finding information (I didn’t realize it was google-ready info – it seemed more specialist than that). Instead I’ve been ridiculed for not having heard of it – reminds me of that old adage: “the answer is only easy if you know it”. It’s never been mentioned in any of my schooling, nor in any of the dozens of political and conspiracy documentary films and books I’ve seen or read. I’ve also been a member of ATS for a long time and not come across it.

So how about instead of frothing at the mouth to get your pound of flesh (from someone who has not once arrogantly denied the existence of the Marshal Plan), just politely and maturely offer assistance or say nothing.

I’m very sorry I’ve not heard of it.



posted on Jul, 27 2011 @ 09:42 AM
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Originally posted by Ozscot
I enjoy the 'breaking news' which pops up here and many times it does so before the MSM gets hold of it - so I hang around - but in all honesty I have very little respect for those who would present this as a bastion of freedom and truth. It's more a cesspool of hatred. The only way to deal with it is hate back or stay quiet, both of which defeat the purpose of being here...


Does anybody know of any high traffic forums/sites that aren't hate filled cesspools? When people can remain anonymous, thoughts they hide from others come out.



posted on Jul, 27 2011 @ 09:51 AM
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Originally posted by Benevolent Heretic

Originally posted by The Revenant
ATS is NOT dealing with its' hatred.


If ATS wanted it to be different, it would be. That's my conclusion after much thought.

Hatred, division, fear and extremism are what feed and run this country and they are what keeps ATS thriving. It's become a hotbed of fear and hatred. When it was a group of people talking about conspiracy theories, there was no room for the hatred I see here now (and will not tolerate in my life).

There are Muslim hate threads all through the Politics and Social Issues forums, but start a thread about a supposed Christian terrorist act, and show frustration and fear about Christianity... and it goes into the RANT forum in BTS, supporting the idea that it's acceptable and understandable to hate Muslims, but if you hate Christians, you're just ranting.


Hi,

While I agree with almost all of your post I can't with the above bit, I've seen many anti Christian threads on ATS that if not always up to the 'kill 'em all' level of the Muslim ones then they aren't too far off. I've also seen ones where people openly say that Jews should be killed and guess what? They don't seem to get removed.

The way censorship is managed on here does seem to be down to whatever mod looks at a particular post and I've seen some contradictory moves. I personally feel when it gets to a point of openly inciting hate on another group of people simply based on their gender, colour, age or creed then there should be a review and maybe a cool off period at the least, but then there are many on here who would and do oppose any level of censorship.



posted on Jul, 27 2011 @ 09:55 AM
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Originally posted by PerfectAnomoly
reply to post by The Revenant
 


Excellent post...as a long standing atheist I support your views completely.... the part of the argument that really gets my goat is the whole "moral exclusivity" issue..... christianity, (and in fact all religions, except budhism), seems to think that without membership of it's exclusive club we humans are not capable of being morally upstanding citizens that care about others around us....... quick note..... moral fibre does not come exclusively from religious teachings... the majority of it is common sense and can be worked out by thinking for yourself.... an alien concept to the religious among us of course.... and a little scary, but believe me, we ARE responsbile for our actions.... all of them.....

It takes far more courage to be atheist than religious..


First sentence in your second paragraph is certainly making a grab for the moral exclusivity high ground don't you think? Don't you think that way of thinking as part of the problem not part of the solution? I'm really not sure what I do believe, but with respect, I don't care what you choose not to, so not really sure why you would need more courage.

All you've added to the thread is your high ground thought that being an atheist takes more courage than having faith in a recognised religion... But if you have a picture of anyone being martyred for that (lack of) faith than it would be interesting to have a little background.
edit on 27-7-2011 by something wicked because: (no reason given)



posted on Jul, 27 2011 @ 10:24 AM
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Originally posted by The Revenant

Usually, I'm on the left-wing side of the fence, and I'm quite happy to rant about scummy right-wing gits.


edit on 7/27/2011 by indigothefish because: (no reason given)



posted on Jul, 27 2011 @ 10:33 AM
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Originally posted by Cythraul

Originally posted by Hilltaker

You speak as though this 'Marshal plan' is common knowledge.



Hi,

For Marshal Plan information, please go to this homepage: www.google.com

There you can enter: The Marshall Plan (officially the European Recovery Program, ERP)

Thanks,

How is that helpful? I wasn’t disputing the existence of such a plan – I asked, humbly, for help finding information (I didn’t realize it was google-ready info – it seemed more specialist than that). Instead I’ve been ridiculed for not having heard of it – reminds me of that old adage: “the answer is only easy if you know it”. It’s never been mentioned in any of my schooling, nor in any of the dozens of political and conspiracy documentary films and books I’ve seen or read. I’ve also been a member of ATS for a long time and not come across it.

So how about instead of frothing at the mouth to get your pound of flesh (from someone who has not once arrogantly denied the existence of the Marshal Plan), just politely and maturely offer assistance or say nothing.

I’m very sorry I’ve not heard of it.

STFU
Your post is a waste of space.
He told you to google it.
Have a nice day.



posted on Jul, 27 2011 @ 10:36 AM
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reply to post by Benevolent Heretic
 


I feel the same way Benevolent. I've been here for a long, time. I read a lot, but I only post when I truly have something to say. But anymore, I don't even post. There's a futility in it. I don't want to get drug into the hate, and people aren't here anymore to have a conversation, or to learn or open their minds.

And, it's not criticism, because it only makes sense, but ATS survives because people post. What makes people post the most? Conflict and adversity. There wouldn't be a nearly as much traffic or growth here if we were all politely chatting about tea. Though, don't get me wrong, I'm not implying that policy invites the hate, it doesn't. Just most people aren't able to draw the line, it gets blurred and even the most level minded people sometimes rise to the occasion.



posted on Jul, 27 2011 @ 10:37 AM
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reply to post by The Revenant
 


Well people like yourself could admit that religion doesn't lead to people like Anders and people like myself can say Socialism in and of itself is inherently Christian. You could admit that a person can be scientific and religious, and I can admit that atheists can be good people.

Most of the crap both sides put out are outright lies, designed to make people hate. The world is not so complex. It isn't the left nor the right nor their beliefs that leads to anything good or bad. It's how you use them. And that, simply put, is why there is no absolute immediate right or wrong in the sense of what improves and what doesn't improve, the human race. Just ranges of ability to go along with different things. People choose to be evil. Their religion and background rarely are the reasons for it. Just the manipulation of another, or themselves, via it.



posted on Jul, 27 2011 @ 10:48 AM
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Originally posted by Cythraul

Originally posted by The Revenant
what about the Thatcher / Reagan years when the right-wing dominated the Western world?

What exactly made Thatcher 'right wing'? I'm genuinely interested because I don't know much about her policies. What I do know is that she oversaw expansion of the Marxist EU project, large amounts of immigration, the socialist healthcare system and - unless I'm wrong - tax increases. What I'm saying is - official history, social dogma and her incredibly posh accent tells us that Thatcher was 'right wing conservative'. Does that automatically make it true? Likewise with the Conservative party as a whole. What exactly make them right-wing? In fact, what makes them genuinely conservative in any way? What exactly do they conserve?

edit on 26/7/2011 by Cythraul because: (no reason given)


Well, I'm not sure how this can be answered as political ideology is fairly much a moving feast, but to question if Mrs Thatcher represented at the very least a UK right wing (although I wouldn't say extreme) suggests you may not know too much political history - sorry, but the points you've made above kind of lead me to think that way.

I'm no Thatcher basher but it has to be said that the following points were all seen as more right than central and certainly not left wing....

"What I do know is that she oversaw expansion of the Marxist EU project" I'm not sure she oversaw it, in fact she was in direct opposition to many EU proposals and fought strongly for UK interests (rightly in my opinion). It wasn't just Russia who thought of her as the Iron lady

"large amounts of immigration" You may want to check that, you imply she and her government were in favour of that which I'd question, in fact it wouldn't take too long looking at comments from ministers such as Lord Tebbit to see a different side to that.

"the socialist healthcare system" Now I've got to seriously wonder where you are getting this from. but if there were two issues that really lost the Thatcher government its popularity (such that it had) where the cuts to the health service and the education service. I'm old enough to remember the headlines of 'Thatcher the milk snatcher' and news of hospitals and wards being closed as the budget was slashed.

"and - unless I'm wrong - tax increases" I'm not sure why this is seen as a good thing, but yes, tax increases, the poll tax and rises in income tax.

I'm not even going to mention the miners strike and the overall breaking of the (left based) unions.

"her incredibly posh accent" The daughter of a Grantham shop owner? Her voice became more and more contrived throughout her career, but then again, Tony Blair hardly sounded common and Ed Milliband (sorry for the curse) has never worked a day in his life and sounds the poshest of the lot in todays party leaders.
edit on 27-7-2011 by something wicked because: spell check



posted on Jul, 27 2011 @ 10:58 AM
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reply to post by something wicked
 

Thank you for enlightening me (I did say I genuinely wanted to be educated - never pretended to have all the facts). All I'd say is that - immigration, the EU project and the NHS - Thatcher's government never tried to put a complete stop to, or dismantle, any of those, as far as I know. She may have talked about it - but as far as I'm concerned talk is cheap where politics is concerned.



posted on Jul, 27 2011 @ 10:59 AM
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reply to post by Ozscot
 


"America rescued the world twice and underwrote the costs involved when Europe (and in particular Germany) couldn't get it's act together and started wars which threatened to destabilise the world. America said 'NO MORE'. "

Well if that was correct then it's a shame it took several years to say it. Sheesh, why does it always have to come around to absolute nonsense statements like this?

Yes, Marshall plan existed, no the EU is not a direct consequence of it. What on earth has such an opinion have to do with this thread apart from prove its point?



posted on Jul, 27 2011 @ 11:00 AM
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reply to post by Cythraul
 


Why would you want to dismantle the NHS? Would you replace it with an American style system?






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