God (*more specifically, Jesus*), Created the Heavens and Earth.

reply to post by Akragon
I don't know what your point is, maybe you believe that "the world" means only this planet.
The Greek is, Kosmon, so figure it out from there. "Universe" would be an acceptable translation.

Originally posted by jmdewey60
reply to post by Akragon

 

I don't know what your point is, maybe you believe that "the world" means only this planet.
The Greek is, Kosmon, so figure it out from there. "Universe" would be an acceptable translation.

Kosmon is not a word in any language...

κόσμος is the word... or kosmos

And can be translated as...

an apt and harmonious arrangement or constitution, order, government
ornament, decoration, adornment, i.e. the arrangement of the stars, 'the heavenly hosts', as the ornament of the heavens.
the world, the universe
the circle of the earth, the earth
the inhabitants of the earth, men, the human family
the ungodly multitude; the whole mass of men alienated from God, and therefore hostile to the cause of Christ
world affairs, the aggregate of things earthly
the whole circle of earthly goods, endowments riches, advantages, pleasures, etc, which although hollow and frail and fleeting, stir desire, seduce from God and are obstacles to the cause of Christ
any aggregate or general collection of particulars of any sort

And considering the understanding of what the universe was at the time... That is hardly an explanation of Jesus being God in any form...

Also check the context in which the word was used...

reply to post by Akragon

I don't know what you think Jesus did. Just say a few things, I guess.
He was up to a lot of things from what he said, as I understand it, that would necessitate being something beyond an ordinary person, before he was born, and after he ascended.
If you have another word you want to use other than god, then it probably doesn't matter. I just find that convenient and don't feel like making up my own term for it.

Originally posted by jmdewey60
reply to post by Akragon

 

I don't know what you think Jesus did. Just say a few things, I guess.
He was up to a lot of things from what he said, as I understand it, that would necessitate being something beyond an ordinary person, before he was born, and after he ascended.
If you have another word you want to use other than god, then it probably doesn't matter. I just find that convenient and don't feel like making up my own term for it.

Im not sure what you think he was "up to" but it was explained pretty clearly within your bible...

I gave you the word you were trying to use, and the possible definitions of said word...

I have never once denied he was something beyond a normal man, being sent from God would likely command such things...though i do not do is assume something he didn't say.

Yes there is another word for it, other then God... Christ.... or the annointed one. One sent from God...

Now you can use small letters or big letters when you say God/god.... But you can not put a man that never claimed equality to God....as equal to God...


Well technically you can do whatever you wish... but is that logical?

Or perhaps im making up my own terms here?

reply to post by Akragon

You're talking to the wrong dude and I am guessing one reason is that the trinitarian of the Athanasius variety have abandoned the thread. I am Arian so I don't go for the equality or "godhead" concepts.

Originally posted by jmdewey60
reply to post by Akragon

 

You're talking to the wrong dude and I am guessing one reason is that the trinitarian of the Athanasius variety have abandoned the thread. I am Arian so I don't go for the equality or "godhead" concepts.

Ahh... thank you for clairifying that for me...

Perhaps someone from the trinitarian flavors of the religion could answer this issue then... Im sure theres a few of them watching.

Sorry for proding you btw...

reply to post by Akragon
That's ok and I need to keep on my toes.
I doubt you will get any takers but good luck.

reply to post by Akragon


Yes, Jesus absolutely did claim to be God: Check John 10:30
Quote: "I and my Father are one." (KJV)

It's even listed in the material you copied on your post.

Originally posted by zapr1943
reply to post by Akragon

 

Yes, Jesus absolutely did claim to be God: Check John 10:30
Quote: "I and my Father are one." (KJV)

It's even listed in the material you copied on your post.

Read the rest of the chapter....

Even the few verses before the one you're quoting...

Two entities.... one is greater then the other.

And in fact, he denies he is God in the same chapter... thanks for that

29My Father, which gave them me, is greater than all; and no man is able to pluck them out of my Father's hand.

30I and my Father are one.

31Then the Jews took up stones again to stone him.

32Jesus answered them, Many good works have I shewed you from my Father; for which of those works do ye stone me?

33The Jews answered him, saying, For a good work we stone thee not; but for blasphemy; and because that thou, being a man, makest thyself God.

34Jesus answered them, Is it not written in your law, I said, Ye are gods?

35If he called them gods, unto whom the word of God came, and the scripture cannot be broken;

36Say ye of him, whom the Father hath sanctified, and sent into the world, Thou blasphemest; because I said, I am the Son of God?

37If I do not the works of my Father, believe me not.

38But if I do, though ye believe not me, believe the works: that ye may know, and believe, that the Father is in me, and I in him.


Notice the question mark?

Notice two specific entities being spoken of in this passage, and any other?

No my friend he did not make that claim, not one time.

reply to post by Akragon


Since the Bible never contradicts itself, read from Genesis where: "In the beginning was the Word and the Word was with God and the Word was God." Christ is identified as the "Word" in scripture. Christ is God. When He states that "I and the Father are One," it is a statement of fact. Christ took on the role of man to become a perfect sacrifice for the sins of man, but He is still God even though He temporarily laid aside His deity for that purpose.

Originally posted by zapr1943
reply to post by Akragon

 

Since the Bible never contradicts itself, read from Genesis where: "In the beginning was the Word and the Word was with God and the Word was God." Christ is identified as the "Word" in scripture. Christ is God. When He states that "I and the Father are One," it is a statement of fact. Christ took on the role of man to become a perfect sacrifice for the sins of man, but He is still God even though He temporarily laid aside His deity for that purpose.

You are probably thinking of John one, where it talks about the Word.
In verse 14 it says that (by my translation from the Greek), it came about that the message of God to mankind dwelt with us, and we perceived her praiseworthy nature and so extreme was its worthiness as to make it to where there is no comparison, full of kindness and truth.

reply to post by zapr1943

Since the Bible never contradicts itself,

I'll just stop you right there.... since you're already making a fool of yourself by this obvious incorrect statement

Im tired of this arguement over and over again... Review this thread

I and my father are one, does not mean i am God. And john said the word became flesh etc etc...

Jesus did not claim to be God, because he was not God

Do your research before you speak to me on these matters.

reply to post by jmdewey60


Jmdewey,

Jesus was not God at any time... Jesus did not die to save mankind... he wasn't crucified as you all would like to believe. But he did come to save mankind by preaching about the One God.

GOD does not need to die to save His creation, Glory be to God. He created us only to worship Him. That is our first purpose. Everything in this world is vanity except God and what aids His remembrance!

We are spirit trapped in this human body, we are a treasure hidden in this great poverty.

Know yourself and you will know God.

Peace!

reply to post by queenofangels_17
There is a One God, I will grant you that.
You can not prove there are not other gods.
What is condemned in the OT is people carving a block of wood or something and calling it a god. Of course that is not a god.
The One God is who brought the entire universe into being.
That God who is above all other gods is not the one who is constantly traveling around the world doing one thing or another. It is supposed to be doing a job of keeping an eye on things. The one who you are worshiping is only what is, in Christian terms, an angel. Paul warns about people worshiping angels. Jesus was a god who did not like what the god of this world was doing so died as having been a god, to become a man who was worthy to be called the son of God, and was taken to heaven, as a man, to be given authority over the world. He in turn gives his authority to us, to jointly be the gods of this world and to drive out the influence of that old defeated god.

Originally posted by jmdewey60
reply to post by queenofangels_17

 

There is a One God, I will grant you that.
You can not prove there are not other gods.
What is condemned in the OT is people carving a block of wood or something and calling it a god. Of course that is not a god.
The One God is who brought the entire universe into being.
That God who is above all other gods is not the one who is constantly traveling around the world doing one thing or another. It is supposed to be doing a job of keeping an eye on things. The one who you are worshiping is only what is, in Christian terms, an angel. Paul warns about people worshiping angels. Jesus was a god who did not like what the god of this world was doing so died as having been a god, to become a man who was worthy to be called the son of God, and was taken to heaven, as a man, to be given authority over the world. He in turn gives his authority to us, to jointly be the gods of this world and to drive out the influence of that old defeated god.

edit on 7-10-2011 by jmdewey60 because: (no reason given)

There is ONLY ONE GOD, the Lord of the Worlds. He created everything that exists, whether we are aware of its existence or not. He created seven Heavens and the same number of earths, we cannot compass His creation.

The one who travels around the world preaching His doctrine, His Law, are his emmissaries, prophets, messengers, human or angels. They are not God, they are slaves of God, like you and me.

I do not worship angels, what gave you that idea? I worship the One God, ALLAH, who created me.

And he commanded you not that ye should take the angels and the prophets for lords. Would he command you to disbelieve after ye had surrendered to Allah ? 3:80 Holy Qur'an

It is not possible for any human being unto whom Allah had given the Scripture and wisdom and the prophethood that he should afterwards have said unto mankind: Be slaves of me instead of Allah; but what he said was: Be ye faithful servants of the Lord by virtue of your constant teaching of the Scripture and of your constant study thereof. 3:79 Holy Qur'an

I also do not believe in the self-proclaimed apostle Paul, who taught another doctrine than Jesus taught, who turned Jesus, an anointed one of God as God or son of God, he is the leader of the apostates.

Jesus has no authority over anything, except as God wills. He is a messenger of God who spoke only what God told him to speak. As for being worthy of being called the son of God, it is true.. for whoever does the will of God is worthy to be called the son of God (in the figurative sense).

Mark 3:31–35: “And his mother and his brethren came; and standing outside they sent to him and called him. And a crowd was sitting about him; and they said to him, ‘Your mother and your brethren are outside, asking for you.’ And he replied, ‘Who are my mother and my brethren?’ And looking around on those who sat about him, he said, ‘Here are my mother and my brethren. Whoever does the will of God is my brother, and sister, and mother.’”

There is no literal sense appertaining to God, since God is a Spirit, He does not beget like humans and animals do, when He wills a thing He says to it " BE" and it is!

Lo! the likeness of Jesus with Allah is as the likeness of Adam. He created him of dust, then He said unto him: Be! and he is. 3:59 Holy Qur'an

So do not ascribe to Jesus, godhead or you will become like an idolater even if you do not worship idols or graven images, anything that you love above God becomes an idol, wether it be money, children, or power, these are false gods.

Lo! Allah forgiveth not that a partner should be ascribed unto Him. He forgiveth all save that to whom He will. Whoso ascribeth partners to Allah, he hath indeed invented a tremendous sin. 4:48 Holy Qur'an


Peace!

reply to post by queenofangels_17

So do not ascribe to Jesus, godhead or you will become like an idolater even if you do not worship idols or graven images, anything that you love above God becomes an idol, wether it be money, children, or power, these are false gods.

Godhead is a made-up term.
God is the head god. Jesus is the head of the human race, or mankind.
All you are doing is changing the definitions to avoid using the word, gods.

Originally posted by jmdewey60
reply to post by queenofangels_17

 

So do not ascribe to Jesus, godhead or you will become like an idolater even if you do not worship idols or graven images, anything that you love above God becomes an idol, wether it be money, children, or power, these are false gods.

Godhead is a made-up term.
God is the head god. Jesus is the head of the human race, or mankind.
All you are doing is changing the definitions to avoid using the word, gods.

Godhead is a term that means Deity or Divinity the quality of being God. Man has been making up words from the time of Adam, and will be making up more words to describe the name of things, it's God's gift to man.

2:31 And He taught Adam all the names, then showed them to the angels, saying: Inform Me of the names of these, if ye are truthful.

2:32 They said: Be glorified! We have no knowledge saving that which Thou hast taught us. Lo! Thou, only Thou, art the Knower, the Wise.

2:33 He said: O Adam! Inform them of their names, and when he had informed them of their names, He said: Did I not tell you that I know the secret of the heavens and the earth ? And I know that which ye disclose and which ye hide.

It is ALLAH who teach mankind all things that they know.

1 Read: In the name of thy Lord Who createth,

2 Createth man from a clot.

3 Read: And thy Lord is the Most Bounteous,

4 Who teacheth by the pen,

5 Teacheth man that which he knew not.

6 Nay, but verily man is rebellious

7 That he thinketh himself independent!

8 Lo! unto thy Lord is the return.

Jesus as god? Do you have proof that Jesus claimed to be god or any other prophets testifying Jesus to be god?

5:116 And when Allah saith: O Jesus, son of Mary! Didst thou say unto mankind: Take me and my mother for two gods beside Allah ? he saith: Be glorified! It was not mine to utter that to which I had no right. If I used to say it, then Thou knewest it. Thou knowest what is in my mind, and I know not what is in Thy Mind. Lo! Thou, only Thou, art the Knower of Things Hidden ?

Jesus (peace be upon him) saying in explicit terms that he had no right to be called god beside ALLAH, the head God, as you want to call Him. But you persist in calling him a god with small letter....can you define this god for me?

As for Jesus being head of mankind or the human race.. again where in the scriptures did you read it? God chose Abraham as the leader of mankind, not Jesus.

124 And (remember) when his Lord tried Abraham with (His) commands, and he fulfilled them, He said: Lo! I have appointed thee a leader for mankind. (Abraham) said: And of my offspring (will there be leaders) ? He said: My covenant includeth not wrong-doers.

6:19 Say (O Muhammad): What thing is of most weight in testimony ? Say: Allah is Witness between me and you. And this Qur'an hath been inspired in me, that I may warn therewith you and whomsoever it may reach. Do ye in sooth bear witness that there are gods beside Allah ? Say: I bear no such witness. Say: He is only One God. Lo! I am innocent of that which ye associate with Him.

There are no gods... there is ONLY ONE GOD!

reply to post by queenofangels_17

Jesus as god? Do you have proof that Jesus claimed to be god or any other prophets testifying Jesus to be god?

The prophet, Paul, In his Letter to the Philippians.

You should have the same attitude toward one another that Christ Jesus had,
who though he existed in the form of God
did not regard equality with God
as something to be grasped,
but emptied himself
by taking on the form of a slave,
by looking like other men,
and by sharing in human nature.
He humbled himself,
by becoming obedient to the point of death
– even death on a cross!
As a result God exalted him
and gave him the name
that is above every name,
so that at the name of Jesus
every knee will bow
– in heaven and on earth and under the earth –
and every tongue confess
that Jesus Christ is Lord
to the glory of God the Father.NETBible

Jesus (peace be upon him) saying in explicit terms that he had no right to be called god beside ALLAH, the head God, as you want to call Him. But you persist in calling him a god with small letter....can you define this god for me?

What I would call the small g god is what you would call an angel but there are different classes of angels and Jesus would have bee in his pre-incarnate form, at the very pinnacle of the angel hierarchy. That in my mind makes him equal to the classical concept of a god.

As for Jesus being head of mankind or the human race.. again where in the scriptures did you read it? God chose Abraham as the leader of mankind, not Jesus.

1 Corinthians 15:45
So also it is written, “The first man, Adam, became a living person”; 1 the last Adam became a life-giving spirit.NETBible

There are no gods... there is ONLY ONE GOD!

You fear to use that word, I don't. It's just a word, so pick another.

reply to post by jmdewey60


the Prophet Paul?? who made him prophet? I don't recognize him as even Jesus' disciple since he started the apostasy with new doctrines that contradicted Jesus' teachings, like doing away with circumcision when Jesus taught that it's a Covenant of God with the children of Abraham forever. And making lawful the eating of unclean meat, meaning the swine meat or pork because the death of Jesus means all food became lawful to eat.

Jesus ( peace be upon him) is the Prophet of God sent to the Children of Israel ONLY, not to the gentiles... that is reserved for the Prophet sent to ALL mankind, the Prophet Muhammad ( peace and blessings be upon him).

And one of them who should say: Lo! I am a god beside Him, that one We should repay with hell. Thus We Repay wrong-doers. 21:29 The Prophets - Holy Qur'an

Originally posted by queenofangels_17
reply to post by jmdewey60

 

the Prophet Paul?? who made him prophet?

Jesus made Paul the Prophet of the resurrected Christ.

I don't recognize him as even Jesus' disciple since he started the apostasy with new doctrines that contradicted Jesus' teachings, like doing away with circumcision when Jesus taught that it's a Covenant of God with the children of Abraham forever.

Jesus died to end the 'eternal' covenant and why I call Jesus a god. Another god made the original covenant with Abraham. It was a blood covenant, meaning the pledgor of that covenant was libel to death for breaking the oath. Jesus stood in for that god and suffered the punishment in order to do away with the old contracts with any god, and then established the New Covenant who the believers in Jesus are under.

And making lawful the eating of unclean meat, meaning the swine meat or pork because the death of Jesus means all food became lawful to eat.

That is probably where most Christians get it wrong. We don't have to suffer a divine punishment for eating pork but we do injure our souls by the defilement, just my opinion. Paul never brought this up in his own writings but he talked about buying meat in the market which was associted somehow with offerings made to one god or another.

Jesus ( peace be upon him) is the Prophet of God sent to the Children of Israel ONLY, not to the gentiles... that is reserved for the Prophet sent to ALL mankind, the Prophet Muhammad ( peace and blessings be upon him).

Who is Israel? We know about people called, Jews, but that is only part of Israel. The nation who broke away from Judah, the individual northern kingdom of Israel was captured by the Assyrians were scattered among the nations, where Paul went to preach to those nations so that, one way or another, the lost sheep would find God through Jesus, His Christ.

And one of them who should say: Lo! I am a god beside Him, that one We should repay with hell. Thus We Repay wrong-doers. 21:29 The Prophets - Holy Qur'an

Jesus had emptied himself of the god-powers he had previous to his incarnation, in order to die as a god but in the form of a man. He is our example of our own resurrected selves, today, and nothing else, including any sort of god. To think Jesus was still somehow a god would nullify everything he did, and who and what he is.