God (*more specifically, Jesus*), Created the Heavens and Earth.

reply to post by bogomil


I am happy to help those who really wish to be helped...those who are sincere, etc...
but honestly your teacher SHOULD be God Almighty with the help of His Holy Spirit...
advising one to pray is the best solution ...for only HE can open the blinded eyes and remove the veil.
That's the best suggestion I can offer. Allow HIM to lead you, instead of your ownself.

reply to post by SeekerLou


You wrote:

["I am happy to help those who really wish to be helped"]

On what conditions? Their asking for it or your pushing it? And what makes you think you have the necessary 'guru'-qualifications?

Quote: ["those who are sincere, etc"]

And by "sincere" you mean....?

Quote: ["but honestly your teacher SHOULD be God Almighty....."]

Why? Dig deep with your answer, until you are beyond the usual circle-arguments.

Quote continued: [".......with the help of His Holy Spirit..."]

I already have a 'holy spirit' and it hasn't lead me anywhere close to your position.

Quote: [" advising one to pray is the best solution "]

Maybe for you, but you are not representative of all mankind. Subjective mindsets ~ subjective approaches. That's why objectivity is so popular these days, it functions in a greater context.

Quote: [" for only HE can open the blinded eyes and remove the veil."]

An assumption you have chosen to have a personal faith in. For those not relying on the circular argumentation in your mythological manual, it's just another pushy expression of a personal opinion.

Quote: ["That's the best suggestion I can offer."]

Just on this forum it's 'offered' dozens of times every day. It has lost its character of an 'offer' by the steamrolling repetitiveness by which it's presented.

Quote: ["Allow HIM to lead you, instead of your ownself."]

And why shouldn't I follow Buddha, Marx, Hitler, Lao Tse, The great noodle master, Woden, Zeus or Eris instead? In spite of my recent post addressed to you, you appear to be even unable/unwilling to stick to topic, but present me with a mini-sermon as 'answer'. And my criteria for choosing a life-direction don't include sermons, but the ability to stay on spot in a rational reasoning-chain.

So....back to topic: "God etc created ...."

Answer: "Because"

reply to post by bogomil

You wrote:

["I am happy to help those who really wish to be helped"]

On what conditions? Their asking for it or your pushing it? And what makes you think you have the necessary 'guru'-qualifications?

The condition is sincerity. No, not pushing a thing, You guys have been the ''pushy-taunting'' ones. I'm not forcing you to believe anything... You have your right to choice. And who said I thought had guru qualifications? You are just trying to be insulting...And it's not me- you guys seem to be the ones constantly attacking in nearly all of the Christian threads here. Tooo, it's not me or other Christians that you are attacking: You are attacking my Lord and Savior , condemning Him, the Bible, etc. Oh , and you do Do a good job at that btw.... But it's not me you are hurting if that is your intention. Just thought I would mention it.

Quote: ["those who are sincere, etc"]

And by "sincere" you mean....?

Do you not have a dictionary, so that you can look the word up? Man, you really like to dig... or pick, eh?

Quote: ["but honestly your teacher SHOULD be God Almighty....."]

Why? Dig deep with your answer, until you are beyond the usual circle-arguments.

The why is because we all should allow God/Jesus into our hearts& lives, repent of our sins, etc...and follow Him, letting Him teach , lead and guide us. Oh! but you aren't a believer , are you?

Quote continued: [".......with the help of His Holy Spirit..."]

I already have a 'holy spirit' and it hasn't lead me anywhere close to your position.

You have a spirit but according to the Bible it is not holy unless you have truly become born again and that would not even be your own spirit being holy- it can't be, but God's Holy Spirit is given upon the new birth to come reside within- upon receiving Christ as your Savior-per the Word.. But I know, you choose not to believe, and I can't prove a thing to you. Only God shows light and reveals the hidden things unto those whom are sincerely seeking/searching....

Quote: [" advising one to pray is the best solution "]

Maybe for you, but you are not representative of all mankind. Subjective mindsets ~ subjective approaches. That's why objectivity is so popular these days, it functions in a greater context.

Yes, praying most definitely helps me! No one said I was representing anyone. Only Jesus' (shed blood ..Holy blood) stands in place /can attone for the sinners. I was merely offering suggestion. And I'm sure all Christian believers , everywhere, would say, it is best to pray , "Prayer changes things, and prayer changes me". But since you don't like to pray, that is your choice!

Quote: [" for only HE can open the blinded eyes and remove the veil."]

An assumption you have chosen to have a personal faith in. For those not relying on the circular argumentation in your mythological manual, it's just another pushy expression of a personal opinion.

You say I'm assuming... I say I believe and trust God. Not an assumption on my part, for I believe the Holy Book, what God said is TRUE. His Word is TRUE, and will endure forever. But again, you have the right to choose not to believe in any of it. .. again, YoUR choice. .

Quote: ["That's the best suggestion I can offer."]

Just on this forum it's 'offered' dozens of times every day. It has lost its character of an 'offer' by the steamrolling repetitiveness by which it's presented.

However, you want to feel dude... feel it ... I'm not trying to break your arm or anything...I've gotten your point... so You don't have to be here to circle argue anymore. You don't believe the way I do.. I actually have no prob with that... again.. your choice...

[Quote: ["Allow HIM to lead you, instead of your ownself."]
And why shouldn't I follow Buddha, Marx, Hitler, Lao Tse, The great noodle master, Woden, Zeus or Eris instead? In spite of my recent post addressed to you, you appear to be even unable/unwilling to stick to topic, but present me with a mini-sermon as 'answer'. And my criteria for choosing a life-direction don't include sermons, but the ability to stay on spot in a rational reasoning-chain.
So....back to topic: "God etc created ...."
Answer: "Because"

You are free to follow whoever you wish. Have at it. Again, no one is trying to break your arm or anything.
You've made your point in that you disagree. And seem to truly despise the Christian believers, so you don't have to make a believer out of me that you disagree. I get it, You disagree... and I disagree with you.. You say I've proven nothing, I say you have proven nothing....so no need in wasting ea other's time, right?

reply to post by bogomil


Ran out of room...lol...

I , myself, am going by and through the attoning blood sacrifice of The Lord Jesus Christ, God, the Son which covereth all of my sins..
.Praise His Holy Name-Jesus!

Again, You can believe that Jesus was not God.. I do.

The end

Originally posted by SeekerLou
reply to post by bogomil

 

Ran out of room...lol...

I , myself, am going by and through the attoning blood sacrifice of The Lord Jesus Christ, God, the Son which covereth all of my sins..
.Praise His Holy Name-Jesus!

Again, You can believe that Jesus was not God.. I do.

The end

Since you claim to believe in the Bible, I am sure you would like to quote a verse from it that says all these things in your post here.
Meanwhile I will quote a verse that I think is what Christianity is about.

1 Peter 1:22
You have purified your souls by obeying the truth in order to show sincere mutual love. So love one another earnestly from a pure heart.

reply to post by jmdewey60


which part? I've already given Scripture on God being the Word =Jesus.

You mean the atoning blood of Christ? You have a Bible... How about reading it... you could start in Hebrews 9 ... At least it's a start but there are soO many more...

OK just so it will be handy for ya... I'll post this last time for ya ..

Heb 9:1 Then verily the first covenant had also ordinances of divine service, and a worldly sanctuary.
Heb 9:2 For there was a tabernacle made; the first, wherein was the candlestick, and the table, and the shewbread; which is called the sanctuary.
Heb 9:3 And after the second veil, the tabernacle which is called the Holiest of all;
Heb 9:4 Which had the golden censer, and the ark of the covenant overlaid round about with gold, wherein was the golden pot that had manna, and Aaron's rod that budded, and the tables of the covenant;
Heb 9:5 And over it the cherubims of glory shadowing the mercyseat; of which we cannot now speak particularly.
Heb 9:6 Now when these things were thus ordained, the priests went always into the first tabernacle, accomplishing the service of God.
Heb 9:7 But into the second went the high priest alone once every year, not without blood, which he offered for himself, and for the errors of the people:
Heb 9:8 The Holy Ghost this signifying, that the way into the holiest of all was not yet made manifest, while as the first tabernacle was yet standing:
Heb 9:9 Which was a figure for the time then present, in which were offered both gifts and sacrifices, that could not make him that did the service perfect, as pertaining to the conscience;
Heb 9:10 Which stood only in meats and drinks, and divers washings, and carnal ordinances, imposed on them until the time of reformation.
Heb 9:11 But Christ being come an high priest of good things to come, by a greater and more perfect tabernacle, not made with hands, that is to say, not of this building;
Heb 9:12 Neither by the blood of goats and calves, but by his own blood he entered in once into the holy place, having obtained eternal redemption for us. Heb 9:13 For if the blood of bulls and of goats, and the ashes of an heifer sprinkling the unclean, sanctifieth to the purifying of the flesh:
Heb 9:14 How much more shall the blood of Christ, who through the eternal Spirit offered himself without spot to God, purge your conscience from dead works to serve the living God?
Heb 9:15 And for this cause he is the mediator of the new testament, that by means of death, for the redemption of the transgressions that were under the first testament, they which are called might receive the promise of eternal inheritance.
Heb 9:16 For where a testament is, there must also of necessity be the death of the testator.
Heb 9:17 For a testament is of force after men are dead: otherwise it is of no strength at all while the testator liveth.
Heb 9:18 Whereupon neither the first testament was dedicated without blood.
Heb 9:19 For when Moses had spoken every precept to all the people according to the law, he took the blood of calves and of goats, with water, and scarlet wool, and hyssop, and sprinkled both the book, and all the people,
Heb 9:20 Saying, This is the blood of the testament which God hath enjoined unto you.
Heb 9:21 Moreover he sprinkled with blood both the tabernacle, and all the vessels of the ministry.
Heb 9:22 And almost all things are by the law purged with blood; and without shedding of blood is no remission.
Heb 9:23 It was therefore necessary that the patterns of things in the heavens should be purified with these; but the heavenly things themselves with better sacrifices than these.
Heb 9:24 For Christ is not entered into the holy places made with hands, which are the figures of the true; but into heaven itself, now to appear in the presence of God for us: Heb 9:25 Nor yet that he should offer himself often, as the high priest entereth into the holy place every year with blood of others;
Heb 9:26 For then must he often have suffered since the foundation of the world: but now once in the end of the world hath he appeared to put away sin by the sacrifice of himself.
Heb 9:27 And as it is appointed unto men once to die, but after this the judgment:
Heb 9:28 So Christ was once offered to bear the sins of many; and unto them that look for him shall he appear the second time without sin unto salvation. .Also.. to say...this is my last reply to you too, for I feel the only reason you are here is but to ridicule and taunt and make a mockery. You don't see me trolling others threads that I don't believe in, do you? That's considered rude, imo.

reply to post by SeekerLou

Also.. to say...this is my last reply to you too, for I feel the only reason you are here is but to ridicule and taunt and make a mockery. You don't see me trolling others threads that I don't believe in, do you? That's considered rude, imo.

That's not my purpose.
What is my purpose is to point out that though you say you believe in the Bible, your core beliefs are extra-biblical, meaning are beliefs that are not from the Bible but are made up as a philosophy of men.
There is no such thing as "God the Son" in the New Testament.
"Covering of sins" is an old Testament concept of how to deal with sin, and is not part of the New Covenant which is a way of dealing with sin by not sinning.

Someone must have overlooked the reading of Hebrews 9. Or either has no understanding what this chapter means.... Here it is again , just in case.
His Word will prove this true..

Not taking time to highlight this time ..for I have wasted enough time and have other interests besides circle arguing as well.

... but for those who hunger, you will read all of this and try to comprehend just what it is saying...& for those of you who choose a different route, could care less about reading or whatever -That's your prerogative to do as you wish. But here it is again, in case the previous poster didn't read, which imo, I don't think he did .or just chooses to obviously ignore.
-------------------------------------------

Heb 9:1 Then verily the first covenant had also ordinances of divine service, and a worldly sanctuary.
Heb 9:2 For there was a tabernacle made; the first, wherein was the candlestick, and the table, and the shewbread; which is called the sanctuary.
Heb 9:3 And after the second veil, the tabernacle which is called the Holiest of all;
Heb 9:4 Which had the golden censer, and the ark of the covenant overlaid round about with gold, wherein was the golden pot that had manna, and Aaron's rod that budded, and the tables of the covenant;
Heb 9:5 And over it the cherubims of glory shadowing the mercyseat; of which we cannot now speak particularly.
Heb 9:6 Now when these things were thus ordained, the priests went always into the first tabernacle, accomplishing the service of God.
Heb 9:7 But into the second went the high priest alone once every year, not without blood, which he offered for himself, and for the errors of the people:
Heb 9:8 The Holy Ghost this signifying, that the way into the holiest of all was not yet made manifest, while as the first tabernacle was yet standing:
Heb 9:9 Which was a figure for the time then present, in which were offered both gifts and sacrifices, that could not make him that did the service perfect, as pertaining to the conscience;
Heb 9:10 Which stood only in meats and drinks, and divers washings, and carnal ordinances, imposed on them until the time of reformation.
Heb 9:11 But Christ being come an high priest of good things to come, by a greater and more perfect tabernacle, not made with hands, that is to say, not of this building;
Heb 9:12 Neither by the blood of goats and calves, but by his own blood he entered in once into the holy place, having obtained eternal redemption for us.
Heb 9:13 For if the blood of bulls and of goats, and the ashes of an heifer sprinkling the unclean, sanctifieth to the purifying of the flesh:
Heb 9:14 How much more shall the blood of Christ, who through the eternal Spirit offered himself without spot to God, purge your conscience from dead works to serve the living God?
Heb 9:15 And for this cause he is the mediator of the new testament, that by means of death, for the redemption of the transgressions that were under the first testament, they which are called might receive the promise of eternal inheritance.
Heb 9:16 For where a testament is, there must also of necessity be the death of the testator.
Heb 9:17 For a testament is of force after men are dead: otherwise it is of no strength at all while the testator liveth.
Heb 9:18 Whereupon neither the first testament was dedicated without blood.
Heb 9:19 For when Moses had spoken every precept to all the people according to the law, he took the blood of calves and of goats, with water, and scarlet wool, and hyssop, and sprinkled both the book, and all the people,
Heb 9:20 Saying, This is the blood of the testament which God hath enjoined unto you.
Heb 9:21 Moreover he sprinkled with blood both the tabernacle, and all the vessels of the ministry.
Heb 9:22 And almost all things are by the law purged with blood; and without shedding of blood is no remission.
Heb 9:23 It was therefore necessary that the patterns of things in the heavens should be purified with these; but the heavenly things themselves with better sacrifices than these.
Heb 9:24 For Christ is not entered into the holy places made with hands, which are the figures of the true; but into heaven itself, now to appear in the presence of God for us:
Heb 9:25 Nor yet that he should offer himself often, as the high priest entereth into the holy place every year with blood of others;
Heb 9:26 For then must he often have suffered since the foundation of the world: but now once in the end of the world hath he appeared to put away sin by the sacrifice of himself.
Heb 9:27 And as it is appointed unto men once to die, but after this the judgment:
Heb 9:28 So Christ was once offered to bear the sins of many; and unto them that look for him shall he appear the second time without sin unto salvation.

What part did they not understandt?
What part did they not understand about Heb 9:14?
How much more shall the blood of Christ, who through the eternal Spirit offered himself without spot to God, purge your conscience from dead works to serve the living God?

What does the blood of Christ do? This whole chapter speaks of His attoning blood sacrifice that covers our sins.. He actually did away with the Law by fulfilling the Law... And by His Holy blood sacrifice that He offered unto God for man, once for all , we now can have remission of sins...Forgiveness.

What part even 9:28 do you not get when it says Christ was once offered to bear the sins of many? He bore our sins on that tree. It should have been I that died .,. but He stretched His arms open wide and just showed me how much He loves....Us all. He is not willing that any should perish but that we all may come to repentance.

reply to post by SeekerLou

but for those who hunger, you will read all of this and try to comprehend just what it is saying..

I have, and I did, and now I do.
That is why I am explaining it.

reply to post by SeekerLou


You wrote:

["The condition is sincerity."]

Ofcourse 'sincerity' is 'sincerity'. I asked you for specification, as the word can have several different meanings depending on context.

Quote: ["No, not pushing a thing, You guys have been the ''pushy-taunting'' ones."]

If being critical to circle-argumented assumptions is being 'pushy', so be it. You bear a 'burden of proof' though...not 'us guys'.

Quote: ["And who said I thought had guru qualifications? You are just trying to be insulting...And it's not me- you guys seem to be the ones constantly attacking in nearly all of the Christian threads here. Tooo, it's not me or other Christians that you are attacking: You are attacking my Lord and Savior , condemning Him, the Bible, etc. Oh , and you do Do a good job at that btw...."]

This is a public forum. Not a pulpit. So unopposed preaching isn't to be expected here.

Quote: ["Do you not have a dictionary, so that you can look the word up? Man, you really like to dig... or pick, eh?"]

When language is misused...yes.

Quote: ["The why is because we all should allow God/Jesus into our hearts& lives, repent of our sins, etc...and follow Him, letting Him teach , lead and guide us."]

For YOU, and on YOUR circular premises.

Quote: ["Oh! but you aren't a believer , are you?"]

Not in your doctrines and attitudes.

Quote: ["You have a spirit but according to the Bible it is not holy unless you have truly become born again and that would not even be your own spirit being holy- it can't be, but God's Holy Spirit is given upon the new birth to come reside within- upon receiving Christ as your Savior-per the Word.."]

So your 'holy spirit' is holier than my 'holy spirit', based on the usual circular argumentation of 'Napkin'ist' principles ("It's true, because it's written here, that what's written here is true")

Quote: [".But I know, you choose not to believe, and I can't prove a thing to you."]

Exactly.

Quote: ["Only God shows light and reveals the hidden things unto those whom are sincerely seeking/searching...."]

Another assumption.

Quote: [" Yes, praying most definitely helps me! No one said I was representing anyone. Only Jesus' (shed blood ..Holy blood) stands in place /can attone for the sinners. I was merely offering suggestion."]

Nope. You said: Quote: [" advising one to pray is the best solution "]. A 'BEST' solution is not "offering suggestion'. It's an absolute statement.

Quote: ["And I'm sure all Christian believers , everywhere, would say, it is best to pray , "Prayer changes things, and prayer changes me"."]

With no disrespect for anyone's choice of a personal religion, but.....I couldn't care less about the values of such a group. It's valid for christians, not for anyone else.

Quote: ["You say I'm assuming... I say I believe and trust God. Not an assumption on my part, for I believe the Holy Book, what God said is TRUE. His Word is TRUE, and will endure forever. But again, you have the right to choose not to believe in any of it. .. again, YoUR choice. ."]

Commendable, but I strongly suggest, that you refine your language to the point, where it doesn't stand out, that you after all ARE preaching 'absolutes' valid for everyone.

Quote: ["so You don't have to be here to circle argue anymore."]

Do you understand at all, what a 'circle-argument' is, or do you routinely, on reflex, send everything inverted back to where it comes from? Knowledge of basic logic would make you no end of good.

Quote: ["You are free to follow whoever you wish. Have at it. Again, no one is trying to break your arm or anything."]

And that's what I already AM doing here. No need to state the obvious.

Quote: ["And seem to truly despise the Christian believers,"]

I have no problems with 'christian believers'. I oppose missionaries with invasive attitudes.

Quote: ["You say I've proven nothing, I say you have proven nothing....so no need in wasting ea other's time, right?"]

So the forum can be hijacked to become a pulpit?

Quote: ["I , myself, am going by and through the attoning blood sacrifice of The Lord Jesus Christ, God, the Son which covereth all of my sins.. .Praise His Holy Name-Jesus!"]

Good for you. But why is it necessary to repeat the same rather trite message with practically identical words over and over. Anyone with average intelligence got it the first time. There are christians and other religionists who can COMMUNICATE and thus be interesting ambassadors for their faith/religion.

reply to post by SeekerLou

This whole chapter speaks of His attoning blood sacrifice that covers our sins.. He actually did away with the Law by fulfilling the Law... And by His Holy blood sacrifice that He offered unto God for man, once for all , we now can have remission of sins...Forgiveness.

No, the whole chapter nine of Hebrews is about how Jesus' death brought about the new covenant and we are no longer under the old covenant.
Chapter ten goes on to say we need to encourage each other into doing good deeds and love. It says for those who deliberately continue to sin, there is no forgiveness.

reply to post by jmdewey60

You are a bit different than the others...thus why I cont. Plus you say you are "sincere"..but I'd assume some of the folks in this forum, the unbelievers, if given the opportunity, would barge into a church service with their "disagreements" and disrupt, sad to say. Can you imagine that? My now, wouldn't they be escorted on out the door! You said:

No, the whole chapter nine of Hebrews is about how Jesus' death brought about the new covenant and we are no longer under the old covenant.
Chapter ten goes on to say we need to encourage each other into doing good deeds and love. It says for those who deliberately continue to sin, there is no forgiveness.

Yessss you are comprehending some things , which is gr8, but now read THIS and ask just HOW He *Jesus* did this. Notice it talks about His HOLY blood sacrifice on behalf of mankind here.

Heb 9:14 How much more shall the blood of Christ, who through the eternal Spirit offered himself without spot to God, purge your conscience from dead works to serve the living God?

Heb 9:12 Neither by the blood of goats and calves, but by his own blood he entered in once into the holy place, having obtained eternal redemption for us.

Did you overlook the meaning and vital importance in reference to His blood?

Reread this one too:
Heb 9:28 So Christ was once offered to bear the sins of many; and unto them that look for him shall he appear the second time without sin unto salvation.

Notice it says, "Christ was once offered to bear the sins of many"

What does His blood have to do with it? It was the final ''once for all" blessed sacrifice of the LAMB who took upon Himself OUR sins and covered them upon the cross. He was the "Supreme" sacrifice which fulfilled the old..Yes, did away with the Law by fulfilling the Law...and we are no longer under that old law. You are correct in that He is our NEW Covenent...
What can wash away my sin? Nothing but the blood of Jesus.

Heb 9:18 Whereupon neither the first testament was dedicated without blood.

So it is BY His attoning blood's Holy sacrifice that a man may be saved... without it , there would be NO remission of sins. He presented His blood as that FINAL sacrifice.....

You can't just skip over these ''blood'' verses.... but you of course are your own man to do as you wish. I could elaborate further but am not at this present time.

Just with this, I believe, you should be able to see for yourself the vital importance of this... what His Holy blood sacrifice is all about....So, now there remaineth no more sacrifice for sin for HE paid it , once for all..

Hope this helps in your understanding. If it hasn't...keep "sincerely " seeking that God will give you understanding.. You said you were sincere so ... Maybe you'll dig a little deeper as to "WHY His blood"
.....
He was God....and what better way to show love to mankind, than to lay down His life for the sheep. His blood was shed for the remission of our sins....He covers our sins by /through His blood : He presented His Holy blood sacrifice in Heaven, on behalf of mankind as a sin offering on our behalf. Praise the Lord Jesus! Is there anything else to be said here? Thus why the song, '' Nothing but the Blood of Jesus"! Remember, ''we are all sinners".. "by one man Adam"..

So, what can wash away my sin? I can't wash myself, cannot be good enough...
The answer: Nothing but the blood of Jesus.... For only His sinless Holy blood sacrifice could attone..

reply to post by SeekerLou


You wrote to JMDewey:

["You are a bit different than the others...thus why I cont. Plus you say you are "sincere"..but I'd assume some of the folks in this forum, the unbelievers, if given the opportunity, would barge into a church service with their "disagreements" and disrupt, sad to say. Can you imagine that? My now, wouldn't they be escorted on out the door!"]

On behalf of the badly disguised "some of the folks on this forum", I feel very entitled to comment on this, even if it only is peripherally topic-related.

There may be some such individuals interfering with what is a private event. Fortunately not anyone I know. Just as there are some folks, who don't understand the principles of a public forum, but want to introduce some element of censorship into it.

The topic of this thread is the claim, that "God etc.....created the Heavens and Earth", a claim which without doubt is presented as 'absolute' along the thread.

Now postulated 'absolutes' are everybody's business (as demonstrated through mankind's history, where one self-proclaimed 'absolute' aften another has ended in misery), and ofcourse especially when presented on a public DISCUSSION forum (not a preaching forum).

So even if you have lost the initial topic out of sight and now are down to irrelevant preaching of the same sermon of sin and blood as a stain-remover, I haven't. I STILL haven't seen any validation whatsoever (apart from circular arguments) of the original title-claim, later promoted to an absolute.

reply to post by SeekerLou

You are a bit different than the others...thus why I cont. Plus you say you are "sincere"..but I'd assume some of the folks in this forum, the unbelievers, if given the opportunity, would barge into a church service with their "disagreements" and disrupt, sad to say. Can you imagine that? My now, wouldn't they be escorted on out the door!

I think its safe to assume this was directed at me, considering im the only other one here that opposes your views.

You may have noticed i've said numerous times "i leave people to their beliefs" which i do... one persons faith is his own and i have no problems with it. Though like bogomil i do oppose absolutes, especially ones that come from the bible which i've studied extensively. On occasion you have adopted the attitude that "you are free to believe whatever you like" which again, i do not oppose... i actually applaud. The issue is you don't stick to that believe because afterwords you still approach the situation with the "my believe is the best and only way" which once again insites me to retailiate.

On the plus side i won't deny you do at least understand your own belief regardless of if i think its right. Your associate (kjv) on the other hand is completely clueless to his own beliefs. And i do take personal offence to ignorance and stupidity only because him pushing his ignorance is an attempt to make others feel as ignorant as he actually is.

You have not demonstrated this in this thread, which i do appreciate.

It never ceases to amaze me how much this subject brings brings debate.

Who created the Heavens and the Earth?

The answer is so obvious it should bring no debate what so ever. The creator created the heavens and the earth.

It is really that simple. Anything else is merely a symbol expressing this truth in a way each unique person will understand.

To a child, it does not matter. There is enough wonder to explore.

To an atheist, it may be the big bang theory, still a creator with a creation.

To a Christian, it may be Christ.

To a Muslim, Allah.

To a Hindu, Brahma.

What ever name or theory, your truth is merely a symbolic representation of the best answer you could surmise with the evidence you have been exposed to and your own unique understanding of that evidence.

Wisdom is not knowing, through not knowing, you listen. By listening, you come to understand.

What is God's name? It is ineffable. It cannot be spoken by man. No symbol can contain it. Any name you choose becomes a limitation that would negate a deity from being a deity. Does God answer to Man or does Man answer to God?

The diverse opinions on the matter are enough to demonstrate that Man answers to God, for each man will learn of him according to HIS will. In otherwords, if God answered to man, there would be one unified religion through force of arms already. Surely men would value their life more than a brutal death if not for the overwhelming desire to follow what their own hearts say on the matter.

Why fight God's will? Why not leave each to their own opinion on the matter? Why not look for what we DO agree on? Simple things like food. We all like to eat. It is necessary for our survival. How about we look for ways to feed each of us? We are less cranky when we are healthy ya know.

Because it is God's will.

With Love,

Your Brother

reply to post by IAMIAM


well said my friend!

Though this particular debate is about Jesus being God, the creator... The evidence in the bible that he was in fact God can be overwelming if you do not listen to the one that their claiming is God. If you read others words, its hard to deny... but if you read his words... the story changes.

This is my arguement... that though the evidence from others is huge. What comes from his mouth is not, and in fact quite the opposite. When they push this belief they also deny his words, which is why im here... On the other hand if they said as i've stated many times... "believe whatever you like"... i would not be here to debate as that leaves the door open for others inturpretation.

Either way its lovely to see you here

reply to post by Akragon


You wrote:

["On occasion you have adopted the attitude that "you are free to believe whatever you like" which again, i do not oppose... i actually applaud. The issue is you don't stick to that believe because afterwords you still approach the situation with the "my believe is the best and only way" which once again insites me to retailiate."]

I'll second that. There's a lot of flip-flopping going on, which I personally find dishonest, as I suspect it has 'tactical' motives.

Originally posted by Akragon
reply to post by IAMIAM

 

well said my friend!

Though this particular debate is about Jesus being God, the creator... The evidence in the bible that he was in fact God can be overwelming if you do not listen to the one that their claiming is God. If you read others words, its hard to deny... but if you read his words... the story changes.

This is my arguement... that though the evidence from others is huge. What comes from his mouth is not, and in fact quite the opposite. When they push this belief they also deny his words, which is why im here... On the other hand if they said as i've stated many times... "believe whatever you like"... i would not be here to debate as that leaves the door open for others inturpretation.

Either way its lovely to see you here

Always good to pop in my friend. My days of arguments on the matter are over for me. The truth will be distilled through the fires of conflict.

With Love,

Your Brother

Originally posted by IAMIAM

Originally posted by Akragon
reply to post by IAMIAM

 

well said my friend!

Though this particular debate is about Jesus being God, the creator... The evidence in the bible that he was in fact God can be overwelming if you do not listen to the one that their claiming is God. If you read others words, its hard to deny... but if you read his words... the story changes.

This is my arguement... that though the evidence from others is huge. What comes from his mouth is not, and in fact quite the opposite. When they push this belief they also deny his words, which is why im here... On the other hand if they said as i've stated many times... "believe whatever you like"... i would not be here to debate as that leaves the door open for others inturpretation.

Either way its lovely to see you here

Always good to pop in my friend. My days of arguments on the matter are over for me. The truth will be distilled through the fires of conflict.

With Love,

Your Brother

Perhaps that is true, but logically speaking.... If Jesus was God, why would those that follow said God deny his own words and push his followers words instead? Thus far this is what has been demonstrated in this thread, then through uselss circle arguements in which the exact same passages are presented over and over... the arguement/debate goes nowhere, and eventually degrades to name calling and personal attacks when they have no place to turn.

I chose the arguement that Jesus spoke of....love for all. In which i can easily defend my postion without the need for said tactics. Unfortunatly they can not do this because Love is not their doctrine... Its more, believe us or be condemed for said lack of belief. Which is my issue here...

I was hoping you might add to this debate honestly... as you are the only person yet on these forums who has actually taught me anything.

cancelled, wrong button