Pentagon Deploying 20,000 Troops In U.S.

reply to post by bekod


reply to post by nenothtu



HR 5122 was introduced and passed Congress and signed into law by President Bush. In addition to the lnguage which allowed the President to assume control of national guard units without the approval of Govenors during invocation of martial law, it also dealt with military funding for ongoing operations, issues with the office of the inspector general etc etc etc.

The section refering to martial law and assuming command over guard units was repealed in 2008 by H.R. 4986 S.E.C. 1068 - page 323

So not sure why your bringin it up?

As a side note Bush did not gut Posse Commitatus, Congress did since they are the only ones who can make / change law in this regard.

Originally posted by NightGypsy
reply to post by Jezus

 

It is your opinion that this thread is "blowing something out of proportion"

It not OPINION, it's FACT!
...
They are going to be used in emergency situations.

You accept that is truth but others are skeptical of that claim...

maybye aliens are coming

Originally posted by Campy61
I am a new member to this site but this is kind of old news. I remember hearing about this a couple years ago.

This is probably completely irreverent but I have noticed within the past year many black helicopters flying over my house on a daily bases. I live in south central KY so there are not any military bases around my location. Every couple of hours at least one will fly over my house and yesterday at around 12:30p 5 flew over my house.

edit on 26-7-2011 by Campy61 because: sorry one instead of on

The "Nighthawks" are based at Ft. Campbell. Transit is, well, transitory. The vehicles move from place to place, and in the process they fly over points where they are not based. I see USMC, Army, and Air force aircraft here all the time, and the nearest air base is 200 miles away.

You're right about it being old news. The same report has popped up every spring, from the same web site, for the past several years. It sort of makes one wonder if that site isn't in reality trying to desensitize certain folk to the reports, so that if they ever turn out real in a hurry, no one will believe them until it's way too late.

reply to post by bekod


First, I harbor no illusions whatsoever over the possibility or potential that it can happen. Neither do I go rushing off screaming that the sky is falling every time it rains. I merely commented on the legality of it, and commented on the fact that the Executive has not, within recent memory, been overburdened by concern for what is and is not legal when he wants something done.

I also commented on the FACT that this particular scare rolls around EVERY year, when Summer Camps start and military vehicles are on the move because of that. In spite of the regular maneuvers, and their misreporting as an "occupation army on the move" I haven't been occupied yet (beyond the regular USA occupation of the CSA, which is taken as a matter of course these days) - have you?

The precise passage you quote there (Section 1076) was addressed in my previous post. It was packed into the corners of the Warner military appropriations bill passed in 2006 for FY 2007, and that tag-along provision was REPEALED IN TOTO in 2008. The Insurrection Act reads as it originally did now.

You seem to labor under the illusion that I have some sort of faith that the government will obey it's own laws. I do not. When the time comes, I will place precisely the same stress on the law as the government does. No more, and no less. Until that time comes, I am watchful, not fearful.

You have NEVER, in ANY of my posts, seen me say that "it can't happen here". I've SEEN it happen in other places, and you know what? Every single one of them believed that "it can't happen here". I learned from that, and I have no illusions.

One thing I can say for certain is that I will never be "hauled off to a FEMA camp" as you claim. You can take that to the bank. If you've ever seen refugees, you'll know that death is preferable to the uprooted, adrift state of the refugee, at the mercy of everyone else around you. That will NEVER happen to me. I have always, since the first time I saw refugees, saved one bullet for myself, and I still do, to this very day. Nossir. If they ever manage to get me inside a FEMA camp, I'll be inside a sealed box, and won't give a crap where my carcass is, at all.

Originally posted by Xcathdra
reply to post by bekod


The section refering to martial law and assuming command over guard units was repealed in 2008 by H.R. 4986 S.E.C. 1068 - page 323

So not sure why your bringin it up?

I brought it up to show that the government has, in fact, tried to negate Posse Comitatus, without actually repealing it. I'll allow the readers to make up their own minds as to potential reasons for that. They may find it entirely reasonable. I don't, but that's another story. As we have both pointed out now, that attempt fell flat on it's face shortly after passage, when it was repealed in totality.

Score one for the good guys, and not a shot had to be fired to get it done. That's the way it's supposed to work, isn't it? I know I'm a lot happier when stuff gets done that way, rather than immediately embracing the violent alternative, and, as they say, "running off at half-cock".

BTW, I didn't say that Bush did it, I said the Bush Administration did it. He still bears ultimate responsibility, especially since it was his bright idea that John Warner slipped into the legislation for him, and congress was only too happy to slap the rubber-stamp to.

It's all fun and games until someone gets a vote put out...

Some comments on various parts of this:
MSM has reported over the years since 9/11 that Homeland Security is training forces to man checkpoints in the U.S. (Newsweek reported this and Popular Science ran an article detailing the uniform as a cross between Storm Trooper and RoboCop). This would go along with the National I.D. to be required. Are these troops part of that?

The A-10s flying could be part of maneuvers / training going on. I live near several bases and have seen numerous fighters doing low level passes and "touch-and-go" landings. Nothing unusual about this, it happens a couple times a year.

The Constitution no longer exists. The Patriot Act gives the President the authority to declare a "National Emergency". This suspends the constitution and the powers of congress. He can declare martial law until HE decides the emergency is over. He essentially gets dictatorial powers. Our elected officials allowed this to pass and several have stated (again reported in the MSM) that "The Constitution is outdated".

"They who can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety, deserve neither liberty nor safety." Benjamin Franklin, 1775

The Global Hawk High-Altitude, Long-Endurance, Unmanned Reconnaissance Aircraft are now here. AND the FAA has instituted an unprecedented number (22) of Temporary Flight Restrictions (no-fly zones) for "Security" this week.


pstuph.wordpress.com..." target="_blank" class="postlink" rel="nofollow"> pstuph.wordpress.com...

I don't know where this information is comming from but I wouldn't be surprized if they were getting ready for the comming break point in the U.S.A. in regards to the debt.. gonna be some pissed off people in the near furture me thinks!

reply to post by Xcathdra
you need to read this all the way through then say it is of no concern www.reference.com... how will 20,000 troops be used from the link

On September 30, 2008 the US Army announced that the 3rd Infantry Division’s 1st Brigade Combat Team (BCT) will be under the day-to-day control of US Army North, the Army service component of Northern Command (NORTHCOM), as an on-call federal response force for natural or manmade emergencies and disasters, including terrorist attacks.

so you see there are laws that say yes troops can and will be used, and not sense the Civil war has this been done, not even in ww1 or ww2

This marks the first time an active US Army unit will be given a dedicated assignment to NORTHCOM, where it is stated they may be "called upon to help with civil unrest and crowd control or to deal with potentially horrific scenarios such as massive poisoning and chaos in response to a chemical, biological, radiological, nuclear or high-yield explosive (CBRNE) attack." These soldiers will also learn how to use non-lethal weapons designed to "subdue unruly or dangerous individuals" without killing them, and also includes equipment to stand up a hasty road block; spike strips for slowing, stopping or controlling traffic; shields and batons; and, beanbag bullets.

yea and the first time it is used some hot head will use live ammo, just a slaughter waiting to happen.an M2 and m60 will do crowd control just fine. what does the 3rd of the1st have to say?www.armytimes.com... from the link

rigade homeland tours start Oct. 1

3rd Infantry’s 1st BCT trains for a new dwell-time mission. Helping ‘people at home’ may become a permanent part of the active Army
By Gina Cavallaro - Staff writer
Posted : Tuesday Sep 30, 2008 16:07:12 EDT

The 3rd Infantry Division’s 1st Brigade Combat Team has spent 35 of the last 60 months in Iraq patrolling in full battle rattle, helping restore essential services and escorting supply convoys.

Now they’re training for the same mission — with a twist — at home.

Originally posted by Starwise
When you join the military, you have to take an oath:

Oath of Enlistment

I, _____, do solemnly swear (or affirm) that I will support and defend the Constitution of the United States against all enemies, foreign and domestic; that I will bear true faith and allegiance to the same; and that I will obey the orders of the President of the United States and the orders of the officers appointed over me, according to regulations and the Uniform Code of Military Justice. So help me God.

AGAIN: FOREIGN AND DOMESTIC

Dont tforget the Officers

Officer

I, [name], do solemnly swear (or affirm) that I will support and defend the Constitution of the United States against all enemies, foreign and domestic; that I will bear true faith and allegiance to the same; that I take this obligation freely, without any mental reservation or purpose of evasion; and that I will well and faithfully discharge the duties of the office on which I am about to enter. So help me God.[1]

National Guard

, [name], do solemly swear (or affirm) that I will support and defend the Constitution of the United States and the Constitution of the State (Commonwealth, District, Territory) of ___ against all enemies, foreign and domestic; that I will bear true faith and allegiance to the same; that I will obey the orders of the President of the United States and the Governor of the State (Commonwealth, District, Territory) of ___, that I make this obligation freely, without any mental reservations or purpose of evasion, and that I will well and faithfully discharge the duties of the Office of [grade] in the Army/Air National Guard of the State (Commonwealth, District, Territory) of ___ upon which I am about to enter, so help me God.

AND..... The Soldiers Creed
(infowars)
National Guard ad revives Nazi oath to Hitler: “Always place mission first,” not US Constitution
www.infowars.com... ?????????????????

reply to post by bekod


The information I am using is coming from the Washington Post, who has more detailed info than the OP source. By all means though lets continue to use sources that remove key information to turn something into something its not.

As I stated before, no single city, county or state has the resources needed to single handedly deal with a nuke / chem / bio incident. We did not have the resources needed to adequately handle the F-5 tornado in Joplin, as I pointed out a few posts back.

The responses by people kind of surprise me to be honest. A lot of people demand we pull troops home and rebuild America, and when it looks like that is starting to occur, albeit with disaster planning, people go paranoid and claim the government is preparing to declare martial law.

As I said I have no issues with people being suspcious of the Government, I just think so see so many conspiracies that they can no longer tell truth from paranoia (and this is in general and not directed at anyone in particular).

We have way more than 20k full time federal military units inside the United States, since they are, you know, US military. They are citizens of the states and are just as loyal and patriotic as you me and the person next door.

To assume that those people are going to say screw it and assist in a military take over is severely underestimating their loyalty and patriotism. I point this out because people seem to have this psychological block on anything FEderal. What I mean by this is people refer to the government in a 1 word, all encompasing manner. They do the same thing for federal military units as well.

People who do this are failing to acknowledge that these entities are made up of individuals.

20k troops encompasing 3 units.

1 unit is active duty full time federal military.
2 units will be composed of state guard units.

Posse Commitatus was enacted by Congress, and as such can be changed / modified. With paranoia running rampant on this site, people seem to ignore the fact our REpublic has survived for 250 +/- years.

The units are trained for a specific purpose. 20k are not enough to secure a large city, let alone a state, region or the US.

The states have guard units for a reason... If the Feds decided to go military do you really think they are going to just walk into the state unopposed? You dont think the States would defend themselves? You dont think the people would defend themselves?

People are making a big to do out of nothing. The nightmare scenarios you guys come up with would make a stephen king plotline look like a disney movie.

reply to post by Xcathdra
you may use the WP i will use the law as it is written, for that is what counts and if the law say yes you can and do have the right to do so then in time of need it shall be for Bush had foresight to know how to go around the law

The actual text is on page 322-323 of the legislation. As of 2008, these changes were repealed, changing the text of the law back to the original 1878 wording, under Public Law 110-181 (H.R. 4986, Section 1068,) however in signing H.R. 4986 into law President Bush attached a signing statement which indicated that the Executive Branch did not feel bound by the changes enacted by the repeal.

therefore the POTUS can call upon the troops of the armed forces to restore law and order. What is so hard to under stand this; The Constitution and the Bill of Rights can and will be suspend if the POTUS deemed it necessary in time of need, yes 20,000 troops across the us is nothing but what about a city or state? lets say NY is hit again how many ways are in or out and how many would it take to block them? 200?? out of 20,000 that is more that enough do you not think? Now there are back roads but then they have the "predator" do they not ?If the city or state was in lock down, no one in or out, do you think they would not use this? or say Miami gets hit by a hurricane, would the 20,000 be enough for search and rescue, and police duties to keep looters at bey? my concern with this is
one: most troops have severed in a combat zone. have used deadly force
two: will they be issued live ammo? would bean bags work when the gangs use live ammo
three: for how long would they be deployed? up to 60 days with out approval.
For we are hit with disasters of all kinds from flood EQ and riots, through in the threat of terrorism, it is a powder keg, ready to explode just when and where will the fuse be lit for the troops to be called in ??? would the debit default be enough ? would an EQ in CA that leveled LA? An other hurricane?
you see these are real issues, not just some "oh no the sky is falling" Obama seems as if he does not care about the law look at Libya, the law says he must have Congressional approval for the use of armed forces dose not say ground troops just says Armed Forces and he could use them for 60 days with out the need of Congress www.wsws.org... As far as i know Marshal law nor National emergency does not mean war, as in the war powers act, so this does not apply. the use of troops do, how the police acted during Katrina was bad enough, think of troops back from a combat zone are like.

Originally posted by FraternitasSaturni

Originally posted by Wolfenz

Originally posted by BarmyBilly
reply to post by Nobama

 

A few shots are enough to disperse a crowd of thousands, regardless if half of you are armed, a few handguns is no match for a professionally trained army.

WHAT ! ?? OMFG !

You do realize that There are Veterans From those Military Force Branches 30 Years Worth that is Still Capable Handling a Military Weapon or Vehicle ( Jet Planes Helicopters to a Jeep/hummer to a Tank )
To Take Over ...

Now Times That From the Discharge (times up , going Home did my 4 to 8+ years ) of Soldiers Every Year!
Especially the Recent One's that are Against the Deployment in Iraq and Afghanistan

In every Branch and they are Professional Trained and Im just talking The Military !!

Dont forget others Like Retired LEO's SWAT Teams ETC..Survivalist & .Militia Groups Most are Veterans that Are Out of the Cloud ! and have Been Awaken !

Hell a Least 80% of The Mohawk Warriors Society are Veteran Marines in My Area OLD & The Recent New

And what about the Many Manufacturers of Hunting Weapons & Ammunition Rounds Would they Seize!
or Would they Continue Supplying Regardless

I Would think IF this comes about.. The Majority of Americans GOVT Laws and Regulation would not Apply anymore! Individuals Would build Their Own Weapons and Americans Would be pretty Much be like
the tribal people Afghanistan have been doing in the last 40 years ! Duplicating Other Well Known Weapons , Crudely made but its effective to do the Job ..

edit on 25-7-2011 by Wolfenz because: (no reason given)

Lol... you make it seem like the US is a pure military state...

Its Becoming a Police Orwellian Nation How much more Freedoms are being taken away
Those Patriotic Songs we know in the past with LAND of the FREE will Vanish

Eventually in time We will end up seeing this

Well wake up, you're the US, not a modern sparta where men were born to only 1 purpose.

You Dont know me Nor my Background to make such a claim ! I was a Subject within a Program

And yes, hes right... the people will be scare sh*tless and will disperse as soon as they see the military shooting the first one. It will be mass panic or otherwise called "routing".

Only the weak mindless Sheep Does Not Care what is Going on with this Country Especially Even the Awareness of the Patriot Act! and Edited Reversion of the McCarren / International ACT That instead the word like Communism They Put Terrorist in its place For Everyone Can be a Suspect Especaily anything UnAmerican Internal Security Act of 1950

The One's you are Potraying
Those People are already in the Fence (Hog Pen)

Now in the aftermath, yes you may be right... a resistance can be organized etc etc, but do not count on the "ppl" to face the army... just a few minority will join the "resistance". Unless you're highly motivated (ex religious fanatic) you cant, and you're not trained as a civilian endure the psychological pressure of consecutive loss of men, women, children, dying next to you etc. You will give up at some point. This isnt the Terminator.

Are you Forgetting what Happened September Eleventh Two Thousand One ! ? There were Amass Joining up the Military People were Pissed not In Fear!
You think Militia and Survivalist are Religious Fanatics ! in parts of the South Maybe Not the Whole US! LOL

We have a Very Well Established Militia Near The Border of were im from
Speaking of that We been in a Cold WAR with the American and Canadian Governments in case you miss those Video's Ive Posted click back a couple of pages

You Say Not Trained as a Civilian Hmm Former Marine Thanks for Asking tho Ive see alot of pressure and loss in my time Im Immune to it with the Exception of Immediate Family that would Break my Chains and Unleash whats Within me.. Rules of LAW Wouldn't Apply to that Point ...

Pockets of resistance will be crushed because the army has almost an infinite amount of means to get you out. Hell even you manage to last for a week, as soon as you cross the "acceptable numbers" that the army has established, they just prolly blow you up with a tactical nuke and be done with it.

Well The Oka Crisis Lasted 2 1/2 Months with the Canadian Army

Military VS Civilians
Control of the masses

Plus you have the numbers but you dont have the arsenal and again the means to endure a fight against the army... unless you know some friends who own a few M1s and Apaches... which you dont.

Hey I may know Many Inside and Outside the U.S. ! I do know some that can Operate them

just need to capture them ...

So dont underestimate the army based on numbers. I rather have 2 lions guarding my lawn than 1000 kittens. Numbers mean nothing these days... maybe in ancient times but not today. A single 6-8 man specialized team... like your deltas can, alone, prolly wipe out a whole town before the sunrise.

May Lai Incident Ring a bell and that was regular Army and dont underestimate a Kitten ! and Kittens Grow up to be Bigger Cats !

Red Dawn - Trailer

But... doom and gloom away... I dont think this deployment of troops mean anything... I just found this comment funny in some ways.

Me Either I Would be more Concerned when UN Troops come AMASS !

edit on 26-7-2011 by Wolfenz because: (no reason given)

edit on 26-7-2011 by Wolfenz because: (no reason given)

reply to post by bekod


Uhm... yeah.. The law that Bush signed had the portion dealing with use of military in law enforcement functions repealed.

Secondly, State guard units are not subject to Posses Commitatus.

Third - Article 1 section 9 comes into play.

As far as your hypothetical about New York City - The NYPD has around 40k uniformed officers. That would be about 20k more than the military setup.

As I said, all the legal mumbo jumbo aside you guys are turning this into something its not.

If a nuke / bio / chem incident occurs, who do you think should handle it?

Originally posted by Nobama
Well if these troops did open fire, 20,000 of them vs millions of us..doesn't seem like a fair fight to me.

edit on 24-7-2011 by Nobama because: (no reason given)

Are you kidding? At the peak of the swine flu business, which nation formed desperate queues for vaccination? Scratches head. Ummm that would be US.... You will be like sheep to the slaughter.

reply to post by Wolfenz


Chill, baby. The poster you are responding to there knows not whereof he speaks, and that's not his fault, See, almost everyone on Earth expects that everyone else will react to a given stimulus in the same way they themselves would react. They simply can't conceive of anything occurring outside that worldview.

He's probably just not aware of, and has not seen withing his own frame of reference, some things that others HAVE experienced.

He's right in a way - when shots are fired, most WILL break and run. What they are running to get may be another matter that he can't quite grasp. Those who neither run nor return fire (them that freeze) will either die or be taken prisoner. Freezing up is not a good long term survival strategy, regardless of what rabbits do. Even they will run when the heat gets too hot.

His assessment of SpecOps decimation of entire communities seems based upon Rambo movies. Now granted, Delta Boys and the like can tear up a patch. The thing that isn't being factored in is the growing body of ex-SpecOps types scattered around.

They can tear up a patch, too.

It's not like in the movies where the hero runs in unopposed or poorly opposed, and can tear things up with impunity. I can honestly say that I'm not unacquainted with those sorts of men, both current and former. I have NO fear from that quarter. They are some of the most capable, ruthless, and most importantly level-headed souls I've ever encountered. I doubt you'll ever see many of them kicking in the doors of their fellow citizens and rounding them up for concentration camps. There is, right now as a matter of fact, an active and already in place resistance to such within the ranks.

Some other units I can't comment on, having no knowledge or experience of them. I simply don't know what they'd do. All I know is that it wouldn't be unopposed if it was the wrong thing to do.

In the final analysis, I couldn't say which way it would go over all if it were to ever come to that. All I can speak to is my own reaction. "They", whoever they are, are welcome to test my resolve at any old time they like. Whichever way it goes, and whoever wins and is left standing in the end, I can safely say they will only test it ONE time.

Somehow, I find it hard to believe that I'm the only one around like that. There's just no telling if there are enough of us to make a difference, but it really won't matter to those of us who may be put to that test. We will react as we have to, win or lose, and if we lose, we won't live long enough to realize it.

Problem solved.

Xcathedra is right, too. 20k Troopers really aren't even enough to piss of the American public at large, much less subdue them, so those troopers MUST have some other function than "Martial law". The simple fact is that if those 20k were amassed at any one place in numbers high enough to perform their task, and were up to no good, it wouldn't be long before "problems" would start popping up EVERYWHERE else, just as soon as folks saw that they were up to no good, but tied down "over there".

As I said before, that is EXACTLY how guerrilla wars get started.

ETA: I believe you're Akwesane, aren't you? If you are, you already KNOW that technology ain't got jack on DETERMINATION. Be secure in that knowledge. You already KNOW that guerrilla wars can be won. What other folks THINK doesn't change that.

[The just in case scenerio, sounds like a police state

Originally posted by BarmyBilly
reply to post by Nobama

 

A few shots are enough to disperse a crowd of thousands, regardless if half of you are armed, a few handguns is no match for a professionally trained army.

A professionally trained army is no match to millions that are pissed... You would be underestimating to think the US populace would use handguns against an army.

Originally posted by warren3720
[The just in case scenerio, sounds like a police state

Would you feel safer if we were not prepared at all?