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Let's call Obamas' bluff.

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posted on Jul, 27 2011 @ 10:13 PM
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Originally posted by NoHierarchy
reply to post by Jean Paul Zodeaux
 


That all you got, man?

INSANITY is believing that completely unregulating our markets will lead to anything but disaster and economic tyranny.

The SANE can imagine an ideal future (peaceful Anarchism) while being realistic enough to choose the lesser evils within our current system.


Quit pretending your an anarchist. You want to control other people, man. That ain't anarchy.

Further, choosing the lesser of evils is still choosing evil. Sane people don't choose evil.



posted on Jul, 27 2011 @ 11:12 PM
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reply to post by beezzer
 


Wait...you dont get a check right? You did not know Social Security is THEIR money taken from each paycheck. In America, it comes out of everyones check and you get a staement saying how much you'd get each month on retirement.

Again, my folks depend on that money. They worked all those years and put into it out of each and every check theyve gotten for 30 some years. And you want the government to KEEP all their money they put into Social Security?

For example...my last check they took out $74.60 US...and thats my money. So how does letting the government illegally keep my hard earned money teach them any lesson? Its my money.

Ill bet you had no clue...otherwise you'd have stated at least we all should get back our years and years of pay deductions thats OURs...and refuse the rest for the Government. You mentioned nothing about us getting back all of our deducution thats taken out of each paycheck AUTOMATICALLY.



posted on Jul, 27 2011 @ 11:24 PM
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reply to post by beezzer
 





Let's show that we are charitable


Why don't the billionaires and corporations show their "Chariable tendencies" and start hiring some fricking Americans who need jobs?

The profits are certainly there...record profits in fact....yet oops...no jobs.

Maybe if they hired some americans and gave them a decent damn wage the charity wouldn't be needed now would it?



posted on Jul, 27 2011 @ 11:28 PM
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reply to post by David9176
 





Why don't the billionaires and corporations show their "Chariable tendencies" and start hiring some fricking Americans who need jobs?


Man, this in a nutshell embodies your philosophy. You do not see a job as a contract between employer and employee where an even exchange is made between services or labor rendered for pay, but instead see jobs as charity. Something that should be given to you for no other reason than it is the charitable thing to do.



posted on Jul, 27 2011 @ 11:41 PM
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reply to post by Jean Paul Zodeaux
 


No sir, the point I am making, or was trying to make, if corporations weren't so dependent on maximizing profits,but instead hired as many people as they could with a decent wage, there would be less need for charitable donations.

I'm assuming most people would rather have a good paying job than be reluctant to have to take from a charity and pay for things themselves.....wouldn't you agree?

Would certainly help with those needing government assistance wouldn't it...to get them off it?

The lack of jobs is the ultimate problem..and is the ultimate cause to many of the symptoms that is often attacked.



posted on Jul, 27 2011 @ 11:53 PM
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reply to post by David9176
 





The lack of jobs is the ultimate problem..and is the ultimate cause to many of the symptoms that is often attacked.


David,

Maybe you and I will never agree on much, but if I could ever get you to even come close to agreement with me on what I am about to state I would be ecstatic.

Jobs are not the sacred cows you and others try to make them out to be. It is not the lack of jobs that is the problem, it is the lack of entrepreneurship and ingenuity that is the problem. You don't have to be an entrepreneur if you don't want to be, and you don't have to be ingenious if you don't want to be, but at some point, if at least some of these people convinced that their only hope of survival lies in a job working for someone else do not realize they are infinitely more powerful than that and capable of so much more, this problem will never get fixed.

I authored a thread in this site called Killing Korporations where I showed a way in which we the people could reign in corporatism by having their charters revoked. Some guy entered that thread and defended corporations while attacking capitalism. He was a jobophile just like you, and he was aghast at the idea that corporatism be ended. Apparently mom and pop businesses is not the kind of job this guy wants. He wants the full package baby! He wants a high end well paid job with full benefits and was smart enough to know he could never squeeze any of that out of a mom and pop business but not smart enough to understand that corporate officers are not stupid either and will react to being squeezed by seeking cheaper labor.

If all you can imagine you are is a guy who has a job and nothing more, this is your prerogative. I hope you can understand that I hold out higher hopes for you, and I do not see your fullest potential being released by you being some clowns employee.

Just saying, that's all.



posted on Jul, 28 2011 @ 12:28 AM
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Originally posted by Jean Paul Zodeaux

Originally posted by NoHierarchy
reply to post by Jean Paul Zodeaux
 


That all you got, man?

INSANITY is believing that completely unregulating our markets will lead to anything but disaster and economic tyranny.

The SANE can imagine an ideal future (peaceful Anarchism) while being realistic enough to choose the lesser evils within our current system.


Quit pretending your an anarchist. You want to control other people, man. That ain't anarchy.

Further, choosing the lesser of evils is still choosing evil. Sane people don't choose evil.



WHY CAN'T YOU SEE THAT THE MARKET CONTROLS PEOPLE?

How can you sit there and pretend that money, markets, hierarchy, stratification, etc. don't have power? That's EXACTLY how Americans are being controlled most... via indirect economic constraints and invisible/systemic threats. You don't need a jackboot held over someone's head when you've got invisible economic cages to keep people in line within.



posted on Jul, 28 2011 @ 12:33 AM
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Originally posted by David9176
reply to post by beezzer
 





Let's show that we are charitable


Why don't the billionaires and corporations show their "Chariable tendencies" and start hiring some fricking Americans who need jobs?

The profits are certainly there...record profits in fact....yet oops...no jobs.

Maybe if they hired some americans and gave them a decent damn wage the charity wouldn't be needed now would it?


Oh and you forgot! STAGNATING WAGES FOR THE LAST FEW DECADES!

It's funny how that works... we've seen record profits, record wealth gaps, and record worker productivity... but nope, less benefits, stagnating pay, and incessant whining from the rich about taxes.

WE SHOULD CEASE FEEDING THEIR GREED.

Oh but let me guess... that's somehow the government's fault when companies don't decide to raise wages, and when they lobby excessively to prevent increases in the minimum wage and now they EVEN want to remove a minimum wage altogether! On top of all that... they've convinced a bunch of citizens that somehow they're fighting for "freedom" when they fight for unregulated markets. THEY DON'T REALIZE THAT UNREGULATED MARKETS WOULD BENEFIT THE WORST OF THE WORST in our current world.



posted on Jul, 28 2011 @ 12:39 AM
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reply to post by Jean Paul Zodeaux
 





I hope you can understand that I hold out higher hopes for you, and I do not see your fullest potential being released by you being some clowns employee.


I will always be more than a clowns employee. I'm a father, a husband, and a son of hell of a great father. I don't crave endless material things....I work my ass off and do what I'm told. I don't miss work, i've only taken one week of vacation the last 4 years. I don't have great aspirations to do great things and I am not a leader. I'm just a dad who wants the best for his kid...and the best for all the other families out there who are having a hard time....my friends, family, and neighbors.

As for doing away with corporations altogether? Quite honestly have never given it much thought. Once a business has grown too large and destroys competition, i believe anti-trust laws should be enforced and I believe our trade laws should be changed that encourages manufacturing growth, jobs, and better wages for Americans....and by that I mean raising tariffs. That is certainly not friendly to any Multi-national corporation as it's a tax that they simply cannot avoid....they pay the price for the slave labor they employ in other countries.

I don't hold myself beholden to any ideology....and ultimately, survival is not dependent on any ideology. I am simply looking back at what worked in the past when this country was strong and proud....and everyone had a bit larger piece of the whole pie...instead of crumbs with the largest slices going to a select few.

The world is complicated, and will never be black and white.....but ultimately we have to find a way for all of us to coexist without destroying each other....that may be an unattainable goal...but it sure as hell doesn't hurt trying.






edit on 28-7-2011 by David9176 because: (no reason given)



posted on Jul, 28 2011 @ 12:40 AM
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Originally posted by Jean Paul Zodeaux
reply to post by David9176
 





Why don't the billionaires and corporations show their "Chariable tendencies" and start hiring some fricking Americans who need jobs?


Man, this in a nutshell embodies your philosophy. You do not see a job as a contract between employer and employee where an even exchange is made between services or labor rendered for pay, but instead see jobs as charity. Something that should be given to you for no other reason than it is the charitable thing to do.


What you fail to realize in your cult-like market-obsessed dogma is that LABOR does not give you inherent power. All it does is allow you to sell yourself to a company and the higher-ups within it. Stop whitewashing it with all this euphemistic talk of "contract between employee and employer" and an "even exchange is made"... B.S. That's not how the real world works... wage-slavery is a THREAT, you either play the games that your company/boss tells you, play the games that the reigning economic system/market tells you to play, or you starve/suffer. That's a threat and it DOES NOT SERVE HUMANITY, it is a self-serving system that exploits humans and natural resources to this perpetually growing cancer of consumption.

The foundation of society SHOULD be charity between humans. If you give support, you get support, give to those in need who cannot get what they need otherwise. THAT is how humans survive and thrive... not by engaging in every-man-for-himself cutthroat business. You cannot force everyone to become good little businesspeople within a purist market society, obsessively applying free-market ideologies to every aspect of life like some self-help guru or religious missionary peddling their brand of religion. The bedrock of society should NOT be business, it should be far more core principles that business/markets should naturally follow.



posted on Jul, 28 2011 @ 12:42 AM
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reply to post by NoHierarchy
 





What you fail to realize in your cult-like market-obsessed dogma is that LABOR does not give you inherent power.


What you fail to realize stuck in your cult-like Marxist-obsessed dogma is that I ain't talking about LABOR, genius. No body is going to flourish and prosper being a Marxist laborer. Everybody has within them an infinite universe of creativity and potential that goes far beyond LABOR.



posted on Jul, 28 2011 @ 12:47 AM
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Originally posted by Jean Paul Zodeaux
reply to post by NoHierarchy
 





What you fail to realize in your cult-like market-obsessed dogma is that LABOR does not give you inherent power.


What you fail to realize stuck in your cult-like Marxist-obsessed dogma is that I ain't talking about LABOR, genius. No body is going to flourish and prosper being a Marxist laborer. Everybody has within them an infinite universe of creativity and potential that goes far beyond LABOR.



The fact that you called me a Marxist refuted your own argument in and of itself.

Aside from that... do you REALLY expect billions of entrepreneurs to become a sustainable and prosperous way to run markets in even the most AGREEABLE society to such markets?

The bottom line is this- when wealth and power can be gained over and above others, this will create an unacceptably corrupt society (unless it can be counter-balanced or neutralized by whatever mechanism). History has shown us that, despite any noble or utopian ideals regarding EITHER perfect markets or perfect governments... BOTH have lead to tyranny. This is why both Communism and Capitalism are massive modern FAILURES. What's sad is that most of the world has moved away from Communism... but has embraced Capitalism despite its less-overt, but perhaps more potent, poisons.

(Oh... and pssst! There's not enough to go around... scarcity is a serious problem with such high populations, in terms of wealth, opportunities, and resources)
edit on 28-7-2011 by NoHierarchy because: (no reason given)



posted on Jul, 28 2011 @ 12:50 AM
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reply to post by NoHierarchy
 





The fact that you called me a Marxist refuted your own argument in and of itself.


The fact that you try to distance yourself from the word Marxist only shows that you know full well that the ideology is flawed. You are not pushing LABOR because you believe it is a good thing, your motives are far more nefarious.



posted on Jul, 28 2011 @ 01:04 AM
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Originally posted by Jean Paul Zodeaux
reply to post by NoHierarchy
 





The fact that you called me a Marxist refuted your own argument in and of itself.


The fact that you try to distance yourself from the word Marxist only shows that you know full well that the ideology is flawed. You are not pushing LABOR because you believe it is a good thing, your motives are far more nefarious.



Well duh... have I not stated time and time again that Communism is a flawed/utopian ideology...?? Certainly we can take some lessons from both its ideology and its in-practice mistakes and implement them properly. Just as we can with any other decent ideas that remain intact in the wreckage of failed ideology.

So... what exactly is your point otherwise? I'm not pushing labor because I believe it is a good thing? My motives are far more nefarious? Please explain your skewed/sensationalist/ambiguous statements...



posted on Jul, 28 2011 @ 04:58 AM
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Originally posted by NoHierarchy

WHY CAN'T YOU SEE THAT THE MARKET CONTROLS PEOPLE?

How can you sit there and pretend that money, markets, hierarchy, stratification, etc. don't have power? That's EXACTLY how Americans are being controlled most... via indirect economic constraints and invisible/systemic threats. You don't need a jackboot held over someone's head when you've got invisible economic cages to keep people in line within.


NOTHING can control you that you do not acquiesce to being controlled by.

If one thinks that "money" controls him, it is not actually the money that does so, it is HIS OWN desire for money which controls him.

If he thinks "markets" control him, it is actually HIS OWN desire for whatever it is that market provides which controls him, and his unwillingness to provide that for himself.

If he thinks "hierarchy" or "stratification" control him, it is HIS OWN faith in a caste system which actually controls him.

If he thinks "threats" control him, "invisible", "systemic" or overt, whichever the case may be, it is HIS OWN fear of those threats which actually controls him.

Nossir, NOTHING controls you other than the constraints you allow to cage you in.



posted on Jul, 28 2011 @ 05:07 AM
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Originally posted by NoHierarchy

WE SHOULD CEASE FEEDING THEIR GREED.



That I agree with. If you don't like the treatment you get at their hands, don't feed the beast. To my mind, that is the very essence of a "free market" - the ability and willingness to starve your "oppressor" by simply not patronizing him, and fuelling his alleged "power" over you. The first step is to realize that he has NO power over you which you do not allow, and the second is simply ignoring him in favor of something or some one else - your self, preferably, but not necessarily.

Where do the get this alleged power, if not from the very people they "oppress"?

Starve the beast, watch it wither away as you become stronger for it. YOU are the boss, and should take every opportunity to cause "them" to understand the real pecking order.





edit on 2011/7/28 by nenothtu because: (no reason given)




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